Hi Vincent,

Our organic trials were comparing Badge alt Microthiol and Cueva + Double Nickel. They were all air blast at 100 gal/A. We've done a lot of injury trials and injury is seems to be increased with low volume or concentrate applications. Our injury results seem to follow the acute toxicity/exposure phenomenon, whereby injury is higher when the concentration is higher not more dilute. This is not unlike when one is exposed to a toxin in water, air, or direct contact. A few years back, a lot of growers in NY injured their plantings with complicated tank mixes during thinning applications in low volume applications like 50 gal/A. Two many things were getting mixed with captan in insufficient water and being extruded from nozzles.


Kerik

On 5/1/2017 1:00 PM, Vincent Philion wrote:
Hi Kerik,

It would certainly be interesting to understand why results differ so greatly.

It’s unfortunate that companies insist on high volume spraying. Aside from the russeting issue, there are many good reasons to reduce spray volume (in relation to tree size). It’s also unfortunate most trials are done with a handgun (and no air assist?), resulting in a droplet spectrum size and spray distribution very different from what growers actually use.

In any case, the good news is your results imply that Cueva is very safe to use, even at high volume. Were you running oxychloride with a similar copper concentration alongside Cueva?

Vincent


Le 1 mai 2017 à 09:59, Kerik D. Cox <kd...@cornell.edu <mailto:kd...@cornell.edu>> a écrit :

Hi Vincent,

I'm sorry that our trials resulted in the opposite expectation. Most of the company protocols ask me to apply their products at 100 gal/A. I guess they were hoping to increase the chance of showing product injury at my field days. I thought it was a more universal tree row volume for apples, my mistake. The field crews at Geneva and Ithaca sprays everything at 100 gal/A. I guess it's an underhanded attempt to potentially injure our plots with copper. With all my dilute handgun applications, I'm surprised that I don't have potatoes. I guess I keep getting lucky.

Best,
Kerik
Hi Kerik,

I don’t know how much experience you actually have with airblast sprayer trials varying volume, but this is something we do routinely.

Evidence of copper injury with high volume sprays dates back (at least) to 1972. Look it up. Classic experiments demonstrate the same amount of copper can defoliate plants or result in no injury, just by varying volume.

Let’s say I have a hard time “swallowing” your aspirin analogy…! Let’s stick to apples, OK?

The fact that labels require you to apply large volumes of water doesn’t make it a sound or sensible advice.

Most likely, the labels reflect the trial conditions. And most trials in the USA are run with high volume….!
Vincent


Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:31, Kerik D. Cox <kd...@cornell.edu <mailto:kd...@cornell.edu>> a écrit :

Hi Vincent,

We've found that concentration is potentially more damaging with copper than higher volumes as the both 50gal and 100gal get the same amount of copper. It's like taking powdered aspirin with half the recommended amount of water. Also, many labels in the US actually require that certain products be applied in a minimum of 100 gal/A. If were potentially injurious to apply at 100 gal/A, I assure you that no company would include any such statements on label. Actually, they would, without a doubt, put statements saying that the product should not be applied at 100 gal/A or injury would occur. Excess water seems to just roll off the trees in our experiments.

Best,
Kerik
I hope you meant a Low volume of water. High volume = slow drying = russeting. This is very easy to demonstrate. We do it as a "control" in plots. We always have copper induced russeting at 500 L/ha and none at 225 L/ha.

Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.

Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:05, Two Onion Farm <far...@twoonionfarm.com <mailto:far...@twoonionfarm.com>> a écrit :

Kerik Cox at Cornell has done trials with this combination for cedar apple rust, summer fungal diseases, and fireblight and has had good results.

We started using the combination in our organic orchard last year and did not see any problems with fruit russeting. Kerik did caution me to use a high volume of water to avoid toxicity from the copper (100 gallons per acre vs our normal 50 in our high density orchard). We have used 2 qts/acre Cueva + 2 lbs/acre 2ble nickel.

Kerik also suggested that the 2ble nickel might be unnecessary and that cueva alone might be sufficient, but that may be theoretical at this point. The 2ble nickel does add a lot of cost.

Chris

Chris & Juli McGuire
Two Onion Farm
www.twoonionfarm.com <http://www.twoonionfarm.com/>
19638 Cottage Inn Road
Belmont, WI 53510
(608) 762-5335
far...@twoonionfarm.com <mailto:far...@twoonionfarm.com>


On 5/1/2017 6:43 AM, maurice tougas wrote:
A couple years ago I recall discussion regarding the use of Cueva/Double Nickel combination as an alternative and/or rotation with strep for fireblight management. Is anyone aware of further research regarding this combination esp as to regards to crop safety and efficacy ?

Mo Tougas

--
Maurice Tougas
Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844


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Kerik D.  Cox, Ph.D., Associate Professor
Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Section
School of Integrative Plant Science
Cornell University
221 Barton Lab
NYSAES
630 West North Street           
Geneva, NY 14456 USA    

E-mail:kd...@cornell.edu Faculty Office: (315) 787-2401
Fruit Pathology Lab: (315) 787-2402     
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--
Kerik D.  Cox, Ph.D., Associate Professor
Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Section
School of Integrative Plant Science
Cornell University
221 Barton Lab
NYSAES
630 West North Street           
Geneva, NY 14456 USA    

E-mail:kd...@cornell.edu Faculty Office: (315) 787-2401
Fruit Pathology Lab: (315) 787-2402     
FAX: (315) 787-2389
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