Anthony Hind
Wed, 16 Jan 2008 04:03:03 -0800
Le 14 janv. 08 à 18:12, Rob a écrit :
Dear Anthony, I think you'll find the bass register below the 7th course moreproblematical than the treble. Not only the sound quality of the thick-gut fundamentals, gimped or otherwise, but also the intonation compared to theoctave neighbours.
Dear Rob and allI would first like to thank those who sent me messages of support, encouraging me to use gut on my new 11c lute. There is definitely a sort of friendly "brotherhood" of gut users, and I think that is valuable.
However, I would also like to thank Rob for honestly keeping us informed on his progress and difficulties with gut. I think there can be difficulties, and if we don't recognize what they are, we are not likely to find satisfactory compromises. Obviously, an amateur may not have exactly the same problems as a professional; a professional may keep in tune better, but an amateur can retune whenever he feels like it. Yet, I don't think keeping in tune is the real problem that Rob is pointing out. "The sound quality of the thick-gut fundamentals, gimped or otherwise", that you are not happy with, could, also, I think be controlled with perseverance, as suggested by Ed on another posting; and I have to say that gut basses often take as much as 6 months to thin-out slightly and really stabilize, gaining a little in high frequency presence. I would not want to judge them within a couple of months.
The really serious problem that Rob is pointing to, seems to me, to be the question of the "intonation" of the basses compared to the octave neighbours, and this is simply, I believe, a question of the difference in string diameter.
The only way round this "intonation" problem, with pure gut, would be to have very long strings (presumably longer than 69, as much as 74) or very low tension strings, but with a very full lute bowl to reinforce the bass (a Burkholtzer, for example, as used by Satoh, and proned by Ed.). Although, a lute with shortish string lengths (65-67) would be much easier to play.
Satoh appears to have found quite a good compromise. Unless I am mistaken, he appears to have adopted the Dutch/English/French? 12c Lute, to partly get round this problem. On this, the 12c and 11c, on the second neck, are quite long, while the other strings are somewhat shorter, thus allowing the player more agility; and at the same time, the bass is reinforced by the large bowl size of the Burkholtzer lute. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TSatohConcert/ PlayingRT.jpg
Although, the Burkholtzer, recorded on the Larson site is a 13 c lute, strung in Gamut gut perhaps with gimped, we can hear that it has a rounder more bass orientated sound the 11c Hans Frei, now in the Wein Kunsthistorisches Museum, no. C34 :
Listen first the 13 c Burkholtzer:
http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/berkholtzer/
berkholtzer_baroque_lute_sarabande.wma
Second the on the Frei C34 :
http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/frei/frei%20baroque%20lute.wma
If I am right about Satoh's choice, it is quite clever, as the
Burkholtzer, in its two-headed form, is recognized (thanks, possibly,
to Jacques Gaultier) as a lute for the early new tunings in France
and then in England and Holland and some (possibly, most) two headed
lutes were indeed multi-ribbed*, as shown by the Mest lute.
http://lib-art.com/art.php?id=1140 http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/pictures.htm/mestb.jpg http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/nov99/month.htmIn its 13c or 11 c form, on the other hand, it would probably be seen as rather too late for French Baroque music. In its two headed form, it seems an acceptable musical compromise for "Style Brisé" (but perhaps I am wrong and Satoh only uses it for specific 2 headed lute music). On his recording "Style brisé", he seems to be using an original lute, the Laurentius Greiff lute (1613) Fussen, so it is probably also a multi ribbed lute (no data on that at LSA, http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PID=762)
The two headed lute used by Anthony Bailes, on the other hand, is a Warwick Frei model, and he clearly associates it with the French fashion for Bologna lutes. There could therefore be two ideas about the history of the two-headed lute. The first, stated clearly by Bailes, in his latest recording, is that the two headed lute is part of the taste for Bologna lutes that began with the search for new tunings, and before the success of the Dm tuning (before 1638, then). There do not seem to be any surviving Bologna 12c lutes, however. The Wolff looks more like a Warwick (from the front), twelve-course lute by Wolfgang Wolff, Füssen 16th century; although it is made in Fussen and has 15 ribs, so not a typical Bologna lute.
http://www.tabulatura.com/wolff.JPGHowever, Van Edwards also makes a 12c based on the 9 ribbed 654 Maler, the model-type owned by Rob, and of course Paul Thomson made Bailes his 12c on the Warwick base.
The second, possibly implied by Satoh, is that the 12c developed, as a transitional form, naturally out of earlier multi-ribbed 10c lutes, before the fashion for Bologna lutes developed. The fashion for Bologna lutes, might then be much later, associated with dm tuning, beginning around 1640, and not effecting the two headed lute very much. We would then have two Dm type lutes, the 9 or 11 ribbed 11c Bologna lute in France, and the multi-ribbed 12c two headed lute, in England and Holland). There are very few remaining two headed lutes, so it would be difficult to decide between these two historic views. Note there is also a 13 ribbed model based on a Marx Unverdorben lute, made by Peter Schreiner, at
http://www.schreinerlutes.com/unverdorben.htmlHowever, for many lutists, the Mouton lute of the de Troy painting, remains the classic French Baroque lute shape, and size (similar to that of Rob's Maler, but with shorter strings). Rob, with Martin Shepherd, deliberately chose this 9 ribbed type rather than a larger multi ribbed bowl, because of the freer sound, they feel is essential for the Dm tuning. These do not have large bowls to help reinforce the weak bass of low tension diapasons.
The Mouton had a relatively small bowl, and probably a short string length, possibly below 67 cms (below that of Rob's Maler), according to measurements estimated from the famous painting. Such a string length, with pure gut, should imply very thick strings indeed, and the problem of "intonation" with the octaves would be severe. However, that does not seem to be what is shown by the painting. The diapasons seem quite thin and the red colour is very noticeable. This surely must be the result of loading with metal salts, or the lute would just have no bass at all :
http://www.aquilacorde.com/Mouton.jpgIn fact, MP and D.v.E. note that the same red strings appear on these two headed lute (thinnish strings, and strong red colour).
http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/mar01/monthpics/2.jpgWhy dye strings red? Surely, it is not decorative, there must be a purpose behind this, and loading, at least in the case of the Mouton lute, is more than just plausible, as it certainly should remove the "intonation" problem between basses and octaves, discussed by Rob, which would be a real problem with such a lute.
Nevertheless, there is a difference between musicological research into "authentic-historic" stringing and practical choices for performance. At present these strings are not commercially available, and even if they were, it is not certain that every player would be happy with the feel or sound of them. Each players has to find their own level of compromise that is acceptable to their own ears and taste, as well as to at least some of their audience. Ed Martin owns an 11c Frei C34 with a similar string length to that of the Mouton lute, and he uses a form of loaded string, since gimping does load the gut. This might not be historically "correct", but it is a compromise with which Ed is clearly happy (perhaps, it is Ed on the C34 recording above, certainly it is very probably the type of stringing he is using).
Paul Beier, on his Weiss recording on Warwick Frei uses a mixture of original MP loaded (not the new Venice loaded), and gimped, as here, at: http://www.musico.it/lute/beiercd_stradsolo.html), click on Weiss, to hear it.
I am hesitating about which way to go. I have the impression that Venice have a better high frequency presence than Pistoys, so I may go for pure lowish tension Venice, if loaded are still not available, or perhaps, I might go for unhistoric demi filé, if perchance, they appear before the new loaded Venice strings do. Lutists also speak very well of the strings from Stoppani. There may also be some demi- filé made at NRI, but I doubt whether they are at all the same string- type, as that studied by MP.
In conclusion, an authentic-historic approach is not always possible, we can say that sulphide of mercury*, and sulphide of lead, were very likely to have been used for loading, but even if this was authentic, I doubt whether many modern lutists would go that far for their art. I like the dark, slightly earthy, but clear sound, of the copper salts loaded gut, but if the demi-filé were the only ones available, I would consider those too. I would certainly prefer not to go for full-wounds, unless other solutions fail; but I also understand that Rob, is in a much more pressing situation than I am, and may not want to wait six months for the Pistoys to be run-in. (*The same problem that the restorers have to face for the hall of mirrors at Versailles with their mercury backed glass, fortunately some old pieces still do exist, and these were used recently to great effect, although I haven't visited yet, so hearsay only).
However, compare Rob's recordings in gut and nylgut, which do you prefer? We must consider that Rob was only just beginning to play his Maler lute when he was still using gut.
Chaconne transposée du Théorbe, gut http://www.rmguitar.info/mp3s/11cViseeChaconne.mp3 Sarabande nylgut http://www.rmguitar.info/mp3s/11c/DmSRdeV.mp3and now, here briefly, is a recording of the loaded strings, although MP is still experimenting, and perhaps the sound will still change a little, when it finally becomes available, if it does:
http://www.aquilacorde.com/loaded.mp3 Now the slightly more metallic sound of the demi-filé: http://www.aquilacorde.com/barocco.mp3 Regards Anthony
I might well return to gut in time. This is still very much an experimentalphase. Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
