Edward Martin
Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:18:09 -0800
Hello, Theo.I have had, in the past, intonation problems in gut fundamentals not being in tune with the octaves. This is the nature of plain gut.
The gut strings make by Dan Larson, the pistoy, are very flexible, and the intonation up the frets (fundamental with octave) is very good, generally, and that is not an issue.
I am unsure on how often the French literature has fingered basses on the diapasons, but it is not often. For Weiss, that is a different matter.
ed At 03:28 PM 1/16/2008 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote:
Hello Anthony, Martin and all,Not wanting to add any more info to the full discussion that has been going on here, I would like to ask a general question on the string issue: How often does one come across frets being stopped on courses 11, 10, 9, 8 or 7 ? Sure there will be examples, but what I mean is, how common was it really in the mass of 17th centiury French lute literature ?In the end, many gut strings offered will sound quite lovely an convincing as open diapasons. I hear many lutes that have full and warm basses whilst strung in gut, historical compromises aside.The problems come when you have to stop the large diapason with the octave string. This often requires turning the finger a little towards the fret to equalize the pressure on both strings for intonation purposes. And certain notes can sound quite weak with the big differences between both strings.I guess what I mean is that the real issue (aside from stability, etc.) of gut is the playability factor. I have just heard too many gut strung lutes with 10th/11th course basses of 1.7 or 2.00mm that sound really great to think thatthe entire issue resides solely in the recreation of historical strings...The lute construction itself is also a big factor. And quite frankly speaking, there are some builders who build instruments that sound fab in gut, whilst the same model by another can be dull and clunky with the same strings. It is more than just the number of ribs, in my view. The differences in sound of modern strung lutes vary widely enoughto make us examine that issue too! Sorry for the rambling!! Theo From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:40:00 +0100 To: Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore! Ed I thought I read that these Larosn lutes were both strung in gut (I see in fact nothing is said to that effect). In Mp3 to be truthfull it is difficult to tell much, except that the Burholtzer has more bass presence and is rounder than the Frei, which was the main point to my message. I am glad to hear that the lute played by Satoh, in the photo is actually a copy of the Greiff, not a Burkholtzer. I was afraid the Greiff, might be very different from the Burkholtzer, but I see it has the same mulitribbed form. Indeed, I imagined that Satoh chooses a large bodied multi-ribbed lute with his low tension strings, to compensate for the lack of bass this brings. Had the Greiff been different, I would have been proved wrong (I still might be, off course, as it might not be for that reason). I am also imagining that he chose the Dutch lute form, both to evoke the "Style Brisé" repertoire with a multi-ribbed lute, and also to have a longer bass course on 12c and 11c, again to compensate for weak bass due to low tension, but without having over long strings elsewhere. If that is indeed, what he is doing, it is rather clever (and he kill three birds with one stone), but at the same time, this can't be considered a general solution, just his own very good compromise. All French Baroque lute players did not play such lutes, and you yourself need gimped strings with your 11c Frei. I don't think you could get away with pure low tension gut with this model and such a short string length. However, this is also, clearly, a very satisfactory solution which works well for you, giving something nearer "equal to touch tension", I would suppose. Thanks for all your help and advice. I have received so much information from lutists, lute makers, and string makers through this list and the French list that I am just beginning to get to grips with this very interesting question. Best regards Anthony Le 16 janv. 08 à 13:50, Edward Martin a écrit : > >> >> >> Satoh appears to have found quite a good compromise. Unless I am >> mistaken, he appears to have adopted the Dutch/English/French? 12c >> Lute, to partly get round this problem. On this, the 12c and 11c, on >> the second neck, are quite long, while the other strings are somewhat >> shorter, thus allowing the player more agility; and at the same time, >> the bass is reinforced by the large bowl size of the Burkholtzer >> lute.>> <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TSatohConcert/>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TSatohConcert/>> PlayingRT.jpg > > Anthony, > > That lute is actually a copy of the Greiff, not a Burkholtzer. > > >> Although, the Burkholtzer, recorded on the Larson site is a 13 c >> lute, strung in Gamut gut perhaps with gimped, we can hear that it >> has a rounder more bass orientated sound the 11c Hans Frei, now in >> the Wein Kunsthistorisches Museum, no. C34 : >> Listen first the 13 c Burkholtzer:>> <http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/berkholtzer/>http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/berkholtzer/>> berkholtzer_baroque_lute_sarabande.wma >> Second the on the Frei C34 :>> <http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/frei/frei%20baroque%20lute.wma>http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/frei/frei%20baroque%20lute.wma>> >> Yes, > > That is Paul Berget on the Burkholtzer 13 course lute, and me on > the 11 course lute. Paul is strung entirely in nylon. It is his > choice. I used all gut. > > >> Ed Martin owns an 11c Frei C34 with a similar string length to that >> of the Mouton lute, and he uses a form of loaded string, since >> gimping does load the gut. This might not be historically "correct", >> but it is a compromise with which Ed is clearly happy (perhaps, it is >> Ed on the C34 recording above, certainly it is very probably the type >> of stringing he is using). > > Correct. > > > > ed > > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > To get on or off this list see list information at <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.4/1227 - Release Date: 1/16/2008 1:40 AM
Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202