[blackbelly] RE:Male Livestock animals are dangerous

[Hardika= with all my heart]

Mary Swindell wrote

:>Annette,
I certainly appreciate all your good intentions with trying to "train" your
ram Yasha to not butt you and your family.  However, I absolutely feel
compelled to tell you my reactions to some of the things you have said
below.  Although some of what I am about to say may sound offensive, I
certainly do not mean them that way, but rather as a warning from a
friend.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


        To all that responded to  my question about rams turning on their 
caregivers:

            First I want to say thank you for being straight forward and to 
the point....  :O) I am not offended.......I only wish I had been given this 
information before I got a bottle ram....I heard some say that they can be 
dangerous after we got him...... but it was not explained this way... And he 
was so sweet and friendly.

Now I see what you mean... Neither my husband nor I have been around 
livestock much and I have never had to handle or care for any. We had a 
couple horses at home but they were geldings. Both my husband and I raised 
several types of registered dogs separately before we met...And we both 
groomed dogs...him professionally for many years and I in my home for a 
short time.

I had never heard these horror stories before about Stallions or Rams.. I 
have heard them of Bulls.

I did not ( in my wildest imagination) think that we were going to be 
included in the pecking order, in Yasha's way of thinking.  I have always 
thought if you were good to your animals they would bond with you.  If one 
turned on you it was rare, when treated right.

I know there is a pecking order with most animals...including chickens ...I 
have witnessed it with the chickens and goats and dogs amongst 
themselves...but again I had not been included in their struggle for top 
position...nor responded to as the enemy. Even our billy goat did not do 
this and I was loving and friendly with him but he was not a bottle baby.   
We got him when he was 4mo. old.

We also had a wool ram (twice Yasha's size) and he was a bit assertive but 
when we stood up to him he backed down and let us be boss...even while he 
was rutting...but again he was not a bottle baby even though he was only 2 
months old when we got him.   He never pushed the issue like Yasha is doing.

I did not know that the Blackbelly Sheep were not domesticated....Actually I 
had never even heard of hair sheep until I saw a Barbado Hair Sheep at the 
County Fair.  Then Alan found this list and we bought a couple Black Hawiaan 
Hair Sheep from someone on the list...that was last Aug..a year ago...and in 
Dec. we saw an ad for this little Blackbelly ram lamb that someone wanted to 
find someone to bottle feed.   I had bottled fed our first wool ewe and so I 
felt I could handle this one too.  And the rest you probably know...I have 
been sending emails about Yasha off and on for the last 7mo.   He bonded 
with the dogs and with me so much I never expected for him to take this 
turn.  By the way... he doesn't ram the dogs.   :O)  so what does that mean?

Any way I am not going to go on boo -hooing I just wanted to say thanks to 
all that have taken the time to explain....we will keep a close eye on him.  
Alan seems to be able to stand up to him .... Yasha is backing down to 
him...for now anyway....as for me....I am staying out of the pen, I have 
lost the cutesy, fuzzy feelings I had for him.....  :O/

We will be looking for another ram  for next breeding season.  I wont make 
the same mistakes with him....... :O)

I know one thing, I will tell anyone that wants to take an abandond ram lamb 
and bottle feed it what I have learned the hard way...especially if it is 
one we give away in the future.

Thanks to all again,
Annette
Menookhaw
Ravenden, AR




From: Mary Swindell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [blackbelly] Re: Yasha and I had it out today!
To: blackbelly-blackbellysheep.info@lists.blackbellysheep.info
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Annette,
I certainly appreciate all your good intentions with trying to "train" your
ram Yasha to not butt you and your family.  However, I absolutely feel
compelled to tell you my reactions to some of the things you have said
below.  Although some of what I am about to say may sound offensive, I
certainly do not mean them that way, but rather as a warning from a
friend.  Frankly, some of the things you said frightened me because I think
I see you setting yourself up for disaster.  It also looks to me like you
are misinterpreting what is going on before your very eyes.  Please read 
on.


At 12:04 PM 7/27/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>....I reached out to him to give him some corn with the others and he 
took
>acception to it immediately.


Why are you hand feeding him?  This is an open invitation for him to butt
you!  You are actually encouraging him to come up close to you by holding
out feed for him.  And with your hand outstretched, you are presenting him
with a target.  On the contrary, you should be doing just the opposite --
that is, you should be making threatening motions every time he approaches
you.  You should never encourage a ram to come close to you.  If there is
some reason you need to feed him, just put his grain in the feed trough and
get out of there.


>....So I just stayed that way for a
>bit...maybe about 5 minutes and I talked to him all the time telling him 
he
>was Not going to do this and IF he did he would be done away with....I 
knew
>I had to be stern with him....


Also, you should not talk to the ram -- at all.  Do not communicate with
him.  Every action that you take to familiarize him with you (your touch,
your voice, your eye gaze, etc.), all these things just make him more
comfortable with you.  And the more comfortable he is with you, the greater
the chance that his ego and his aggressive behavior will be turned on you
again and again.  Instead, you should be presenting yourself to him as
mysterious, unpredictable, and fearsome.  You should WANT him to be AFRAID
of you, and to know as little about you as possible.


>Anyway when I let him up I was not sure how he would act but he just got 
up
>and walked away with his head down and went back to the shelter, not even
>looking back once....I think he knew he was 
defeated.....hopefully.....I'll
>see how he is next time I go in....Hopefully I wont have to do it again 
but
>if I do ....I will and sit on him longer the next time!  :O)
>
>I love the little bugger and I really hope we can work this out so he 
will
>be able to be interacted with again...I don't want him as an enemy....but 
I
>know he has to see I am boss


Why do you feel the need to "interact" with him?  Personally, I do not
think he walked away with his head down because he felt defeated.  Instead,
I think he walked away with increased resolve to get you the next time.  He
understood more than before, that this is open warfare.  It was as if you
said, "Hey, the fight's on!"  And he has all day, every day, to think of
new ways to make your life miserable if you let him.  Annette, do NOT buy
into this behavior.  You are not disciplining a naughty child or even a
naughty dog!  You CANNOT change this ram's behavior by your attempts at
"tough love".  He is not motivated by psychological conditioning.  He is
motivated by his hormones, and that will NEVER change.  If you continue
playing his game, it is inevitable that you, or someone else in your family
(heaven forbid that it might be a child) is going to get seriously
hurt.  My advice to you:  Stay AWAY from him.  Do not look him in the
eyes.  Do not talk to him.  Stop trying to change his behavior.  Stop
trying to interact with him.  You cannot change him.  I believe that if he
were a bull, we would not be having this conversation.  Everyone knows you
cannot change the behavior of a bull, and a bull would just as soon kill
you as look at you.  Well, I am here to tell you that Yasha thinks just
like a bull.  If he could get you down, he would ram you again and again
until there was nothing left of you.  And as he ages, he will become more
and more like this.  He cannot help it or change the way he is.  Yes, he is
magnificant and beautiful.  But you must learn to admire him from
afar.  Accept his beauty and do not try to make him a pet.  And when you go
in there the next time, take a heavy hardwood board, a baseball bat, or
something that can do some serious damage.  And be prepared to use it. And
if you're going to hit your ram, hit him hard the first time.  Do not let
him think he can survive a strike on the head from your stick.  It may be
unthinkable, but if you have ever experienced the damage that a ram can
potentially do to property or people, you will be a believer.  You want
that first hit to do enough damage that he will back away and not approach
you again.  And if he does come back after the first hit, you should be
prepared to hit him twice as hard the second time.  I just hope someone
doesn't get hurt in the process.

 From what I have observed in my own rams, the only way to avoid this
escalation is to not get started with it in the first place.   From birth,
I try to avoid my ram lambs as much as possible.  I do not talk to them.  I
do not touch or cuddle them.  They grow up this way, left to themselves,
and we essentially have no relationship.  Then when they are adults, if I
have to go in to tend to them (examine their feet, horns, etc.), I approach
them cautiously, and always have a big stick.  They are usually cooperative
because they fear me -- And I want to keep it that way.  But even still, I
have seen one of my rams try to kill the other one (it took two people and
4 dogs to break up the fight, and we all considered ourselves very
lucky).  And I have seen one of my rams seriously damage a 16-foot tubular
gate to the point where it was bent like a bow.  We had to take it down and
drive a tractor over it to flatten it out again.  These guys are
strong.  The skeletal matter on the tops and fronts of their heads is
unexpectedly thick, and can be used to ram and batter solid objects in an
amazing manner.  I guess it is no surprise that the term "battering ram"
came from this exact behavior.  My oldest ram is 3.5 years old.  He is
almost unapproachable.   He looks at me with fire in his eyes, and I am
certain he would kill me if he got the chance.  And Annette, this "look"
has increased over time.  He was not nearly this aggressive 9 or 10 months
ago.  I have kept him because he is so excellent and gorgeous.  But I don't
have any misgivings about what he is.  And I would never go into his area
without my best stockdog and my very big stick.

Please forgive me for any implication that I'm being preachy or
condescending to you.  I certainly do not mean it that way.  Like you, I
love all of my animals dearly.  And I sympathize with your attempts to make
all this work out and still be able to get physically close to your
ram.  But I am very concerned that anyone who persists in believing that he
or she can change the behavior of ram sheep, will sooner or later have
serious injuries or damage on their hands.  Love your ewes.  Love your ewe
lambs to pieces.  Love your wethers.  Hug them, and make special pets out
of some of them if you like (I have a couple of ewes and wethers like that
in my flock!)  But please try to understand that you cannot change the
nature of your rams.  And please, remember to keep your distance from your
ram lambs and your adult rams.  If you really want to keep them out of the
freezer, then do not ask them to behave in ways that are impossible for 
them.

Sincerely,
Mary Swindell
Bellwether Farm
Cobden, IL




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