Re: Shabbos 038: Did Rebbi enjoy a delicious egg?

[Mordecai Kornfeld]

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Re: Shabbos 038: Did Rebbi enjoy a delicious egg? 

Rav Mordechai Schwimmer asked:

>> If the Gemara in tractate Shabbos 38a refers to eating a lot of eggs
>> that were cooked for a long time because of their delicious taste, than
>> there is a difficulty. Rebbi (Rabbeinu HaKadosh) was also present there.
>> However, in tractate Kessubos 104a the Gemara quotes the words of Rebbi
>> just before his Petirah stating that he did not partake of any worldly
>> pleasures (especially indulgence in delicacies, as Tosfos ad loc points
>> out based on a Midrash).

According to Tosfos themselves (Avodah Zarah 11a D"H Tsnon), Rabbeinu
HaKadosh would not benefit from this world even in the manner described
(l'Shem Shamayim). <<

-----
The Kollel replied:

>> It is also possible that Tosfos in Avoda Zara would not argue with this
>> concept.  The Gemara you quoted from Avoda Zara says that certain
>> delicacies "did not stop from the table of Antoninus and Rebbi."  Just
>> as the "table of Antoninus" refers to the many people who relied on
>> Antoninus, so too the simple explanation of the Gemara is that it is
>> referring to the people who relied on and ate from the food of Rebbi.
>> Tosfos in Avoda Zara does not necessarily disagree with Tosfos in
>> Berachos, but rather understands that the simplest explanation of the
>> Gemara is that other people ate the food. <<
-----

Chaim Smulowitz asked: 

It is also possible that Tosfos in Avoda Zara would not argue with this
concept. The Gemara you quoted from Avoda Zara says that certain delicacies
"did not stop from the table of Antoninus and Rebbi." Just as the "table of
Antoninus" refers to the many people who relied on Antoninus, so too the
simple explanation of the Gemara is that it is referring to the people who
relied on and ate from the food of Rebbi.  Tosfos in Avoda Zara does not
necessarily disagree with Tosfos in Berachos, but rather understands that
the simplest explanation of the Gemara is that other people ate the food.    

This can't be, since the reason Tosfos says this is because of the Gemarah
in Kesuvos, as Tosfos brings there.

I always felt that our Gemarah in Shabbos is a proof to Rashi's explanation
in Kesuvos. That Rebbi never was *Tore'ach* (worked for) getting pleasure.
(It would imply that if it came to him by itself i.e. served to him, he
wouldn't refuse it)

Chaim Smulowitz
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Rabbi Montrose responds:

Tosfos in Avodah Zarah is bothered that the Gemara in Kesuvos, which
apparently says that Rebbi did not benefit from this world, seemingly
contradicts the Gemara in Avodah Zarah which says that Rebbi maintained
delicacies on his table.  My explanation above was that Tosfos (as is the
way of Tosfos and many Rishonim) always seeks the simplest answer to the
question at hand without going into other explanations of the Gemara.
Being that there is a simple answer that Rebbi did not even eat the food,
and this fits well with the Gemara in Avodah Zarah,  this is the easiest
way to reconcile the Gemara in Avodah Zarah with the Gemara in Kesuvos.  

As I have alluded to in my past two responses, there are many explanations
of Rebbi's statement.  The answer Tosfos provides in Avodah Zarah is a good
answer *no matter what* one holds the true explanation of Rebbi's statement
in Kesuvos is, because Tosfos is explaining that the two Gemaros have
nothing to do with each other.  

To summarize, Tosfos is giving the simplest answer for the Gemara in Avodah
Zarah, and is possibly avoiding having to discuss the true meaning of the
Gemara in Kesuvos, which is a Gemara with many explanations and is not a
Gemara Tosfos must discuss at length in Meseches Avodah Zarah.  It is
therefore still possible that Tosfos holds of (or at least finds plausible)
the explanation that eating l'Shem Shamayim was not included in Rebbi's
declaration, despite the fact that Tosfos quotes the Gemara in Kesuvos.

Kol Tuv,

Yaakov Montrose


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