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Re: Berachos 031: Misah b'Yedei Shamayim -- at what age? 

The Kollel replied:

>> Yes indeed, children under Bar-Mitzvah, who are not yet punishable for
>> their own sins, are punishable for the sins of their parents. And what's
>> more, from the Berachah that a father makes when his son turns
>> Bar-Mitzvah ('Baruch she'Petarani ... '), it seems that even though
>> children are not yet punishable for their own sins, their parents *are*
>> punished for those 'sins'.

At the age of Bar/Bas Mitzvah, a child becomes responsible for his or her
own sins, though he is only punishable at the hands of Beis-Din shel Matah.
In Beis Din Shel Ma'alah, for some reason, he is only punished when he
reaches the age of twenty (I assume that there is no difference between a
boy and a girl in this regard). The source for this is a Gemara in Shabbos
(89b), where, in a dialogue between Yitzchak and Hashem, Yitzchak
specifically stated that Hashem does not punish until the age of twenty.

The source for the former is generally accepted as the Pasuk in Vayishlach
(34:25), which refers to Shimon and Levi as "Ish" - and Levi was just
thirteen at the time. The verse tells us "Ish b'Chet'o Yumas," meaning that
punishment is only for an "Ish."<<

--------

Robert Lepor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> comments:

K'vod R' Chrysler,

(a) Regarding halacha l'Moshe misinai as the source for misah bidei
shamayim, you wrote, "I suspect that the same applies to Beis-Din shel
Ma'alah punishing at twenty." Rashi on Shabbos (89b) quotes adas Korach
(Bamidbar, 14) as the source for this. Also see Bamidbar Rabbah (Korach,
18:4). Another possible source may be the m'sei midbar, as can possibly be
inferred from the "ee nami" in Tosafos to Bava Basra (121), who seems to
link this concept with erchin as well (see also shitas R' Eliezer in Erchin
18a). 

For some other sources on the topic, see R' Ovadia Bartenura to Avos (5:21,
D"H "ben esrim lirdof"), Maharsha to Shabbos (89b, regarding the reason for
not being punished until 20 as related to one's ability to serve Hashem,
which potentially supports the cited understanding of the Maharsha about
Shmuel), the Zohar on parshas Vayeira (118b-119a, distinguishing between
specific heavenly judgement and general culpability for aveiros). Also,
shu"t Chacham Tzvi (49) presents 3 different approaches to what this
concept of "d'lo anshis alaihu" means ([1.] Sometimes B.D. shel ma'lah has
rachamim and doesn't punish for averios committed below 20. [2.]
Punishments for such aveiros are not executed in olam hazeh. [3.]
Punishment is suspended until someone turns 20, when he can be punished for
earlier aveiros that he hadn't repented for). Also, see Nachal Eisan to the
gemara in Shabbos, who presents a fourth approach (namely that someone is
never punished for sins committed below 20, even in Olam Haba). 

(b) If I recall correctly, the Maharam Shik and the S'dei Chemed disagree
with this whole concept, explaining that the gemara in Shabbos was only
recording a request that Yitzchak made, and that he merely hoped that
people wouldn't be punished below 20 years of age. It is unclear to me how
they deal with the above cited Medrash ("she'beis din shel ma'lah ain
konsim ela miben esrim shana ul'ma'lah") and Zohar ("d'ha bei dina dil'sasa
anshin mitleisar sh'nin ul'eila, u'bei dina dil'eila mei'esrim sh'nin
ul'hal'ah"). I would be grateful if you or someone else could clarify this
for me.

(c) In any event, I am a bit confused regarding your comment about halacha
l'Moshe misinai. Even if the adas Korach source is considered merely an
allusion to "lo anshis alaihu", can halacha l'Moshe misinai be the source
for something that is non-halachik (such as the heavenly judgement system)?
Is there, in fact, a nafka minah from this concept of "lo anshis alaihu"?
Can the term "halacha l'Moshe misinai" refer to a tradition g'reida?

Thanks in advance and chazak ve'ematz m'ode.

P.S. No need to include this postscript in a public mailing if you don't
want to, but I believe that the correct pronunciation is "Beis-Din shel
Ma'lah" rather than "Ma'alah" (with a sh'va (nach), rather than a patach,
under the ayin). Please correct me if I'm wrong (and, if so, feel free to
include this in the public mailing).

Robert Lepor

------

The Kollel replies:

You seem to have researched the topic thoroughly.  Yasher Koach!  Here are
my remarks...

(a) You say that Rashi in Shabbos cites Adas Korach as the source for
Beis-Din shel Malah (note the change in spelling) not punishing before the
age of twenty.

Actually, Rashi there refers to the Meraglim, and not Korach. This is
particularly interesting, since Machzor Vitri on Pirkei Avos, after writing
that he was taught this source (probably from Rashi, who was his Rebbe),
goes on to query it, because if we accept that, will we also say that
Beis-Din shel Malah does not punish from the age of sixty (seeing as the
Gemara in Bava Basra [121b] specifically precludes the people who were over
sixty from the decree of the Meraglim)?

Rashi in Parshas Korach however, does cite the Medrash (to which you
referred) as the source, though I would describe it as the Medrash rather
than 'Adas Korach'.

Some of the other reasons that you cited do not seem to concur with the
Gemara in Shabbos, which suggests that B.D. shel Ma'alah does not punish
until the age of twenty (period), at least not in this world (assuming of
course, that this Gemara is a good source).

(b) You mentioned that if you recalled correctly, the Maharam Shik and the
S'dei Chemed do not agree with the proof from the Gemara in Shabbos,
because Yitzchak was merely expressing a hope. But his words 'Remove the
first twenty years, on which You do not punish', suggest fact, and not just
hope. Difficult as it is to comprehend, the Nachal Eisan's approach is the
one that fits closest to those words. Why is that?

Firstly, because it transpires that a person must bring a Chatas be'Shogeg
for the same Chiyuv Kareis for which he is not punishable at all be'Meizid. 

Secondly, because it is hard to understand why the same person who is
considered sufficiently mature to be held responsible with regard to sins
that are punished at the hand of B.D. shel Matah, is considered immature
when it comes to those that are punished by B.D. shel Malah. 

I have seen the S'dei Chemed (1:Alef:12), who cites numerous references
concerning this topic, including the Chacham Tzvi that you cited (who
apparently queries a Rambam in Pirush ha'Mishnayos). What he actually says
is that we cannot prove anything from the Gemara in Shabbos, since it is
Agadah.

He also cites a Machlokes between the Noda bi'Yehudah and Tosfos on the
Chumash, both of whom seem to agree that Hashem will punish a precocious
child before the age of twenty (even before the age of thirteen) similar to
the Maharsha to which you referred. Only whereas the former holds that this
punishment takes place after the child dies (whenever that might be), the
latter holds that he is punished here in this world (like Er and Onan). 

(c) Basically, you are probably right. One cannot even argue that there is
a difference with regard to Teshuvah, since it is obvious that Teshuvah is
required whether one is punishable or not (as is evident from the third
explanation that you cited from the Chacham Tzvi). And it is precisely
because the statement has no Halachic ramifications that it is easy to make
the statement that I made.

Yet on second thought, I wonder whether there is no difference regarding
the extent of one's Teshuvah (e.g. fasting and the like) between a sin that
is punishable and one that is not.

One final thought on the Sugya - The Machzor Vitri says something about
someone under twenty not being subject to Misah (the death-penalty).
Perhaps it is the death-sentence that Beis-Din shel Malah do not issue, but
other punishments they do. This would mean that although Hashem does not
punish a person in full before the age of twenty, He does issue him with a
Kaparah, to cleanse him from his sins.

be'Virchas Kol Tuv
Eliezer Chrysler.


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