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THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] ________________________________________________________________ Re: Berachos 031: Misah b'Yedei Shamayim -- at what age? The Kollel replied: >> Yes indeed, children under Bar-Mitzvah, who are not yet punishable for >> their own sins, are punishable for the sins of their parents. And what's >> more, from the Berachah that a father makes when his son turns >> Bar-Mitzvah ('Baruch she'Petarani ... '), it seems that even though >> children are not yet punishable for their own sins, their parents *are* >> punished for those 'sins'. At the age of Bar/Bas Mitzvah, a child becomes responsible for his or her own sins, though he is only punishable at the hands of Beis-Din shel Matah. In Beis Din Shel Ma'alah, for some reason, he is only punished when he reaches the age of twenty (I assume that there is no difference between a boy and a girl in this regard). The source for this is a Gemara in Shabbos (89b), where, in a dialogue between Yitzchak and Hashem, Yitzchak specifically stated that Hashem does not punish until the age of twenty. The source for the former is generally accepted as the Pasuk in Vayishlach (34:25), which refers to Shimon and Levi as "Ish" - and Levi was just thirteen at the time. The verse tells us "Ish b'Chet'o Yumas," meaning that punishment is only for an "Ish."<< -------- Robert Lepor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> comments: K'vod R' Chrysler, (a) Regarding halacha l'Moshe misinai as the source for misah bidei shamayim, you wrote, "I suspect that the same applies to Beis-Din shel Ma'alah punishing at twenty." Rashi on Shabbos (89b) quotes adas Korach (Bamidbar, 14) as the source for this. Also see Bamidbar Rabbah (Korach, 18:4). Another possible source may be the m'sei midbar, as can possibly be inferred from the "ee nami" in Tosafos to Bava Basra (121), who seems to link this concept with erchin as well (see also shitas R' Eliezer in Erchin 18a). For some other sources on the topic, see R' Ovadia Bartenura to Avos (5:21, D"H "ben esrim lirdof"), Maharsha to Shabbos (89b, regarding the reason for not being punished until 20 as related to one's ability to serve Hashem, which potentially supports the cited understanding of the Maharsha about Shmuel), the Zohar on parshas Vayeira (118b-119a, distinguishing between specific heavenly judgement and general culpability for aveiros). Also, shu"t Chacham Tzvi (49) presents 3 different approaches to what this concept of "d'lo anshis alaihu" means ([1.] Sometimes B.D. shel ma'lah has rachamim and doesn't punish for averios committed below 20. [2.] Punishments for such aveiros are not executed in olam hazeh. [3.] Punishment is suspended until someone turns 20, when he can be punished for earlier aveiros that he hadn't repented for). Also, see Nachal Eisan to the gemara in Shabbos, who presents a fourth approach (namely that someone is never punished for sins committed below 20, even in Olam Haba). (b) If I recall correctly, the Maharam Shik and the S'dei Chemed disagree with this whole concept, explaining that the gemara in Shabbos was only recording a request that Yitzchak made, and that he merely hoped that people wouldn't be punished below 20 years of age. It is unclear to me how they deal with the above cited Medrash ("she'beis din shel ma'lah ain konsim ela miben esrim shana ul'ma'lah") and Zohar ("d'ha bei dina dil'sasa anshin mitleisar sh'nin ul'eila, u'bei dina dil'eila mei'esrim sh'nin ul'hal'ah"). I would be grateful if you or someone else could clarify this for me. (c) In any event, I am a bit confused regarding your comment about halacha l'Moshe misinai. Even if the adas Korach source is considered merely an allusion to "lo anshis alaihu", can halacha l'Moshe misinai be the source for something that is non-halachik (such as the heavenly judgement system)? Is there, in fact, a nafka minah from this concept of "lo anshis alaihu"? Can the term "halacha l'Moshe misinai" refer to a tradition g'reida? Thanks in advance and chazak ve'ematz m'ode. P.S. No need to include this postscript in a public mailing if you don't want to, but I believe that the correct pronunciation is "Beis-Din shel Ma'lah" rather than "Ma'alah" (with a sh'va (nach), rather than a patach, under the ayin). Please correct me if I'm wrong (and, if so, feel free to include this in the public mailing). Robert Lepor ------ The Kollel replies: You seem to have researched the topic thoroughly. Yasher Koach! Here are my remarks... (a) You say that Rashi in Shabbos cites Adas Korach as the source for Beis-Din shel Malah (note the change in spelling) not punishing before the age of twenty. Actually, Rashi there refers to the Meraglim, and not Korach. This is particularly interesting, since Machzor Vitri on Pirkei Avos, after writing that he was taught this source (probably from Rashi, who was his Rebbe), goes on to query it, because if we accept that, will we also say that Beis-Din shel Malah does not punish from the age of sixty (seeing as the Gemara in Bava Basra [121b] specifically precludes the people who were over sixty from the decree of the Meraglim)? Rashi in Parshas Korach however, does cite the Medrash (to which you referred) as the source, though I would describe it as the Medrash rather than 'Adas Korach'. Some of the other reasons that you cited do not seem to concur with the Gemara in Shabbos, which suggests that B.D. shel Ma'alah does not punish until the age of twenty (period), at least not in this world (assuming of course, that this Gemara is a good source). (b) You mentioned that if you recalled correctly, the Maharam Shik and the S'dei Chemed do not agree with the proof from the Gemara in Shabbos, because Yitzchak was merely expressing a hope. But his words 'Remove the first twenty years, on which You do not punish', suggest fact, and not just hope. Difficult as it is to comprehend, the Nachal Eisan's approach is the one that fits closest to those words. Why is that? Firstly, because it transpires that a person must bring a Chatas be'Shogeg for the same Chiyuv Kareis for which he is not punishable at all be'Meizid. Secondly, because it is hard to understand why the same person who is considered sufficiently mature to be held responsible with regard to sins that are punished at the hand of B.D. shel Matah, is considered immature when it comes to those that are punished by B.D. shel Malah. I have seen the S'dei Chemed (1:Alef:12), who cites numerous references concerning this topic, including the Chacham Tzvi that you cited (who apparently queries a Rambam in Pirush ha'Mishnayos). What he actually says is that we cannot prove anything from the Gemara in Shabbos, since it is Agadah. He also cites a Machlokes between the Noda bi'Yehudah and Tosfos on the Chumash, both of whom seem to agree that Hashem will punish a precocious child before the age of twenty (even before the age of thirteen) similar to the Maharsha to which you referred. Only whereas the former holds that this punishment takes place after the child dies (whenever that might be), the latter holds that he is punished here in this world (like Er and Onan). (c) Basically, you are probably right. One cannot even argue that there is a difference with regard to Teshuvah, since it is obvious that Teshuvah is required whether one is punishable or not (as is evident from the third explanation that you cited from the Chacham Tzvi). And it is precisely because the statement has no Halachic ramifications that it is easy to make the statement that I made. Yet on second thought, I wonder whether there is no difference regarding the extent of one's Teshuvah (e.g. fasting and the like) between a sin that is punishable and one that is not. One final thought on the Sugya - The Machzor Vitri says something about someone under twenty not being subject to Misah (the death-penalty). Perhaps it is the death-sentence that Beis-Din shel Malah do not issue, but other punishments they do. This would mean that although Hashem does not punish a person in full before the age of twenty, He does issue him with a Kaparah, to cleanse him from his sins. be'Virchas Kol Tuv Eliezer Chrysler. _______________________________________________ Daf-discuss mailing list Daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il http://www.shemayisrael.com/mailman/listinfo/daf-discuss_shemayisrael.co.il