Kollel Iyun Hadaf
Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:19:50 -0800
x-mailing-list: daf-discuss@shemayisrael.com (Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.) _________________________________________________________________
THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST
brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL]
________________________________________________________________
Beitzah 030: Sukah and Esrog
avrohom adler asked:
I just finished daf 30, and I'm a bit confused. The notion that
there are 7 separate mitzvahs of esrog but only one long mitzvah of
sukkah doesn't really seem to answer the question (to my little brain...)
First, according to the opinion that the esrog could be eaten
immediately, the fact that the mitzvah is a full day mitzvah did not
cause the esrog to be asur until the end of the day, so similarly the
fact that sukkah is a seven day mitzvah should not cause it to be
forbidden for the rest of the seven days.
So if I understand correctly, if someone built seven sukkahs, one for
each day, all seven would be prohibited from use until the end of Sukkos?
I'm really confused about what makes a sukkah a sukkah (no, not the
details...). What causes a structure that happens to meet the
minimum sukkah requirements to attain this status whereby the wood is
prohibited from use? If someone built a sukkah and intended to use
it, but never did, could he take down the wood on Chol Hamoed, or did
his intention at the start of the holiday convey the prohibited
status? Or is it actually using the sukkah on Sukkos that causes it
to attain this status?
If someone was out in a field and found a hut that met the
requirements for being a sukkah, and he just sat in it and had a
meal, does that structure, which may not even have been built as a
sukkah, now acquire sukkah status for the rest of the festival? If
someone is going out of town for the last days, their sukkah cannot
be taken down before they leave? And, if I am understanding this
correctly, someone who builds a "car sukkah" by opening their car
door and laying the s'chah across the top can no longer close their
car door for the remainder of Sukkos, right? Obviously that is not
the case. Why not? Closing the car door effectively demolishes the sukkah.
avrohom adler, usa
----------------------------------------------
The Kollel replies:
It seems to me that there is a basic difference between Sukah and
Esrog. Sukah is a continual Mitzvah for every moment of all seven
days whilst Esrog is a one-time Mitzvah, only once a day. See the
MISHNAH on SUKAH 48a that even though one has finished one's meal on
the seventh day of Sukos (i.e. in Eretz Yisrael where one does not
live in the Sukah at all on Shemini Atzeres) one should nevertheless
not dismantle the Sukah. RASHI DH LO YATIR writes that this is
because one is obligated all day long to sleep or study inside the
Sukah, and if a meal should come one's way, one requires the Sukah to
eat it in.
Therefore, according to Rav (end 30b) one may eat the Esrog
immediately because
(1) the Esrog was only seperated for use on one day and
(2) even on that day the Esrog is only specified for the Mitzvah
until one performed the Mitzvah, but for no longer, because there is
no obligation to "shake" the Esrog more than once a day.
In contrast not only is Sukah a 7-day Mitzvah but in addition, even
though one has already fulfilled the Mitzvah, one is obliged to use
the Sukah whenever one wishes to eat, sleep or learn Torah.
However if someone built 7 Sukos, one for each day, it would seem to
me that he should be permitted to dismantle the Day 1 Sukah once Day
2 arrives, for instance. This is because of the reason the
aforementioned Rashi gives that one may not dismantle the Sukah since
one may still require it for sleeping or learning. According to this,
if one has an alternative Sukah available, it should be permitted to
undo the first. In addition, RASHI SHABBOS 45a DH AD seems to say
more clearly that there is no prohibition against dismantling a Sukah
on Chol ha'Mo'ed. However these latter points require further thought.
(1) See SHULCHAN ARUCH OC 638:1 in REMA who writes that the wood of
the Sukah only becomes prohibited if one dwelt in the Sukah on one
occasion, whilst if one merely prepared the Sukah but did not live
there it does not become prohibited, because "Hazmanah Lav Milsa"
("Preparation is not significant").
MISHNAH BERURAH #9 cites MAGEN AVRAHAM who writes that even if the
Sukah was not constructed with the intention of being a Sukah, but
was merely intended to provide shelter, nevertheless, if it possesses
the requirements of a kosher Sukah, and one sat there once, it is
henceforth forbidden for the rest of Yom Tov.
MISHNAH BERURAH adds that this only applies if one specified before
dwelling there that one intended that it should be the Sukah for Yom
Tov, or if one had intention when dwelling there that it should be
used henceforth for the whole of Yom Tov. Otherwise, a Sukah does not
acquire Kedushah (to be considered the Sukah of Yom Tov) merely
because one used it once.
(2) MISHNAH BERURAH proves the above Halachah from what he writes
(638:3) that if somebody sat in the Sukah of (a) shepherds (b)
"Burganin" (see RASHI SUKAH 8b DH BURGANIN that this is the booth of
the city guards) or (c) "Kayatzin" (workers who guard the produce
drying in the fields), this remains an ordinary hut, because merely
sitting in these huts and eating one's bread does not give Kedushah
to the Sukah.
(3) The question about the person who leaves town for the last days
of Sukos and wants to knock down his Sukah, is not so simple. I
pointed out that Rashi seems to suggest that if not for the fact that
that one might still need the Sukah, there would be no prohibition on
dismantling it on Chol ha'Mo'ed. Rashi is cited by MISHNAH BERURAH
666:1. I have found that SHEMIRAS SHABBOS KEHILCHASA (ch. 67 note
177) writes that it would seem that one may not dismantle a Sukah on
Chol ha'Mo'ed because this constitutes doing Melachah which is
unnecessary for Chol ha'Mo'ed. However SHEMIRAS SHABBOS KEHILCHASA
notes that the aforementioned MISHNAH BERURAH would appear to suggest
that it is permitted.
See PISKEI TESHUVOS (by R. Simcha Rabinovitz Shlita) 638:3 who cites
Poskim who discuss whether one may take down a Sukah during Sukos if
one is careful with the Kedushah of the walls and the roof-covering,
and does not use them for other purposes. It may be that the mere
fact that one demolishes the Sukah represents a lowering of its
holiness, which is forbidden.
(4) I did not understand what the problem should be with the car
Sukah. (See PISKEI TESHUVOS 628:4 DH UMI'KAN who writes that a Sukah
made on a car is Kosher if made strongly and see also PISKEI TESHUVOS
638 note 2). If the car has a sliding roof, one could put the
"Sechach" on the roof and the car might be a Kosher Sukah even if the
door is open, if there is sufficient amount of Sukah walls provided
by the rest of the car's structure.
KOL TUV
D. Bloom
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/556 - Release Date: 11/28/2006
_______________________________________________
Daf-discuss mailing list
Daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il
http://mailman.shemayisrael.com/mailman/listinfo/daf-discuss_shemayisrael.co.il