Shabbos 152: Derogatory Braisa about Women

[Kollel Iyun Hadaf]

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Shabbos 152: Derogatory Braisa about Women

ben Yosef Moshe asked:

"A woman is a pouch full of excrement, brimming with blood [Nidah] at its 
mouth, yet everyone pursues her!"

I don't care that Chazal praise women elsewhere - that misses the point. The 
fact is, they said this very statement, and could've said it more nicely. I not 
only don't look up at Chazal for this, but I look down at them. I feel more 
moral than Chazal, and so should you - even you yourself would've said 
something like this instead: "A human - whether man or woman - contains waste 
material and blood, yet despite this, people still lust at times for each other.

It just represents one of the many extremes that Orthodox Jews have, in my 
humble opinion. If you think I'm wrong, please tell me. My Rav said "we don't 
know what this Chazal means exactly." IT'S NOT ABOUT KNOWING OR NOT, IT'S ABOUT 
SAYING DEROGATORY STATEMENTS THAT COULD'VE BEEN SAID NICER.

ben Yosef Moshe, USA
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The Kollel replies:

Unfortunately you have taken the statement completely out of context. This 
reminds me of the person who decided he could not possibly accept Yiddishkeit 
because he had read in Bameh Madlikin on Friday evening that women died in 
childbirth on account of being lax regarding the Mitzvos of Chalah, Nidah, and 
Hadlakas ha'Ner. Only a cruel and illogical religion could prescribe the death 
penalty for such minor offences. Anyone who believes that, he said, must be 
quite unbalanced.

But he has taken it completely out of context without understanding the wider 
picture or the basic intent of this dictum of Chazal. So too here. The Gemara 
is not defining a woman or her attributes any more than the prophet Yeshayah is 
doing so (4:4) when he describes Hashem washing away the filth of the daughters 
of Zion and the blood of Jerusalem. Or Akavya ben Mahalalel who said (Avos 3:1) 
that man comes from a putrid drop or Koheles (3:19) who writes that man is no 
better than a beast. And Chulin (5a,b) regarding men who are the equivalent of 
animals, or Vayikra Rabah 15:2 based on Iyov 28:25 that a man is half-water, 
half-blood and if there is any imbalance he becomes an Adripikos (a dropsy 
sufferer) or a Metzora.

Each of these statements is not intended to be derogatory to humankind 
generally but merely to illustrate a particular point. And it is the same here. 
The Gemara you quoted (Shabbos 152a) is attempting to show the infirmity of man 
in a series of situations. Verses from Koheles are quoted to show what happens 
in man's old age. He becomes weak and tired and his body can no longer function 
efficiently. The greatest Amora, Rav, groaned in the presence of Rav Kahana 
since he could no longer father children. Rav Kahana proceeded to make a deep 
philosophical observation on Hashem's construction and control over His 
creation.

He points out that notwithstanding the fact that a human being finds semen and 
blood repulsive and that the place of intercourse exudes menstrual fluids, 
blood, urine and excrement (this is where he likens a woman to a container full 
of dirt with its openings full of [vaginal] blood), nonetheless, quite 
illogically, a man runs after her. This is how Hashem arranged that procreation 
should take place.

This is his interpretation of the verse in Tehilim 33:9 which is defining 
Hashem's control over the universe. He ordered the creation of woman but no 
child would have been born had He not also given the order for man's desire for 
a woman to override his sensitivity to her repulsive aspects. In fact the 
Jewish approach to intercourse as being an act of great holiness and purity is 
in stark contrast to the attitude of another religion which advocates celibacy 
as a preference and considers the sexual act to be dirty rather than pure. Rav 
Kahana is illustrating that when Hashem sanctions something it becomes purified 
and welcome, completely overriding one's a priori, and perhaps even natural, 
propensity to repugnancy.

In summation, there is nothing derogatory in this Gemara about women. It is 
simply a clinical description given for the purpose of the lesson to be 
derived. Just as in the other cases I have quoted above, no one would take the 
slightest umbrage at the comparison between a man and an animal or the 
attribution of filth and blood to the daughters of Zion and Jerusalem, in the 
context in which the statements were made, so too this statement must be 
understood in its own context.

Kol Tuv,
Joseph Pearlman


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