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THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST
brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
d...@dafyomi.co.il
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Re: General: Rav Sternbuch and psychologists
Shlomo Zalman asked:
>>However, some of the many participants in the forum are taking the quotation
>>to mean that Rav Sternbuch believes that even the best therapists are no
>>good, and it doesn't enhance their respect for Rav Sternbuch or other
>>rebbeim.
The Kollel replied:
>>I am attaching the relevant Teshuvah (which is also available online at
>>www.dafyomi.co.il/general/psych1.jpg ). Since all those in the Orthodox Forum
>>understand Hebrew there is not much to add. Reading the Teshuvah will reveal
>>its true intent and undermine the efforts of those who wish to mock the Torah.
Paul Kandel responded:
>>Overall, if the teshuva refers to a specific category of patients and
>>caregivers, then it should clearly state the precise parameters within which
>>the teshuva applies. The teshuva is vague enough that after reading it
>>several times and also reading Rav Kornfeld's explanation, I do not feel as
>>though I have gained any usable information beyond the obvious "do not claim
>>that all is permissible".
The Kollel replied:
>>If his Teshuvah is unclear to the lay person, it is a shame. For myself, I
>>had no trouble recognizing the cues (in the opening lines and the second
>>paragraph - the third isn't relevant). His objections to those who permit
>>people to sin were not veiled.
>>A God-fearing "Rofei Nefesh" will certainly be all the more capable for his
>>knowledge of modern psychology. But that does not mean that if he lacks that
>>knowledge he is incapable of helping others, or less capable than a standard
>>trained psychologist. Let's face it, modern psychology is some 100 years old,
>>but the problems it deals with have been around for thousands of years. And
>>in all that time, mankind was gaining experience in dealing with them more
>>effectively.
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Joshua H Werblowsky commented:
The title of HaRav Sternbuch, shlita, teshuvah 465 is Is it correct to go to
psychologists and psychiatrists to be healed .The first line statesagainst
going to them. Rav Sternbuch does not differentiate between different kinds of
therapists in his teshuvah.
It seems to me, a teshuvah should answer the question asked in a manner that
does not need interpretation. There should be no need for parshanus, nosei
kalim or commentary beyond what is written in the teshuvah.
If there were special circumstances Rav Sternbuch was relating to, I feel they
should have been included in the teshuvah.
Contrast this teshuvah with HaRav Feinstein, zatzal, Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah
2:57. (paraphrased) The title With regard to healing the mentally ill from a
psychiatrist who is a heretic or atheist. Rav Feinstein answered in my opinion
do not go to them
. One should seek out a psychiatrist who is shomer Torah and
if none are available he should negotiate with the expert to promise not to
discuss areas of belief and Torah.
There is specific validation in the teshuvah for getting mental health
treatment and under what circumstances it is permitted.
I had the opportunity a few years ago at a Yarchei Kalla to ask Rav Sternbuch
and try to clarify his teshuva. Rav Sternbuch agreed that if an individual was
threatening suicide one should go to a psychiatrist. When asked if he
differentiated between different kinds of therapists and if so why not include
that information in his teshuvah he did not elaborate. In my opinion it would
be helpful if Rav Sternbuch would write a teshuvah and elaborate under what
circumstances and with whom mental health treatment would be acceptable.
A short comment with regard to Freudian thought. Freud described religion in
the Future of an illusion and other places as an illusion which of course we
disagree with.
However with regard to therapy with patients, bitzimtzum, his goal was where
id is there ego shall be. Meaning that unconscious drives should not prevail
but to mediate these drives with healthy defense mechanisms, ego ideals and
adaptive and executive functioning. Furthermore psychoanalytic thinking has
developed further with ego development, superego development, object relations
theory and self psychology.
With Torah blessings,
Josh Werblowsky M.D., Jerusalem,Israel
-----------------------
Bernard Weinstein commented:
I happened to have read all 24 volumes of Freud, was in a personal
Freudian-psychoanalysis for 7 years, and was trained to practice
psychoanalytically oriented psychotherapy. I was supervised (for 5 years) by
the president of the New York chapter of the American Psychoanalytic chapter. I
dont recall a single reference in Freud to "letting it all hang out" (despite
Freud himself having had a rather belittling/demeaning attitude to "religion"
in general).
"Letting it all hang out" seems to be a naive, popularized notion of
psychology. The notion of "guilt" as a "motivating affect" captures the
opposite concept viz. that "appropiate" guilt about behaviors that "ought" to
be corrected is centrally important - to be maintained and valued(and
distinguished from irrational/neurotic guilt such as experienced by victims
(especially sexually abused victims) who feel guilty - and deserving - of
having been assaulted.
The hazetz Hayim writes that being "dan lechaf zechut" is a mitzva de'oraita.
One can be "dan lechaf zechut" the words of the teshuva attributed to Rav
Sternbuch in the aforementioned teshuva only by hoping the words in the
teshuva, somehow, do not reflect what Rabbo Sternbuch really thinks of
psychology/psychotherapy in general (even though his shamash seems to confirm
the simple meaning of the teshuva as being rather disparaging of
psychology/psychotherapy).
Much more can be said about this.
Signed
Rabbi Dov Weinstein (child, adolescent adult psychiatrist)
----------------------
The Kollel replies:
I am not convinced that Rav Sternbuch's Teshuvos were written for the
layperson. My impression is that they were written to provide food for thought
for the experienced Rav with years of Shimush Talmidei Chachamim, who passes
rulings on these matters. (I am sure you would find it equally unflattering if
a layperson would try to "prove" a point about psychoanalysis based on his
notions of how the textbook should be interpreted. The entire picture must be
taken into consideration, as both of you distinguished psychologists pointed
out.)
Dr. Werblowsky - I think the Teshuvah was intentionally left vague because in
such matters "rules" do not suffice. One must personally consult with a
competent Halachic authority regarding each individual case. And as I
mentioned, knowledge of psychology, like all knowledge, can certainly be
focused for Avodas Hashem.
Rabbi Weinstein - Thank you for the authoritative corrections. Apparently, the
Rav has had experience with psychologists who encourage patients not to feel
guilt, when the Rav felt guilt was appropriate. Rather than telling them that
their expereince was "coincidence" or chance, we would recommend a
forward-looking approach. Hashem brought such circumstances about to bring the
person closer to Hashem (in one of many ways). Focus on what Hahsem wants from
us and do not remove Him from our experiences.
May all of you be Zocheh to help many people effectively through your Avodas
ha'Kodesh!
Mordecai Kornfeld
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