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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Ebib 0.25 released! (Steve Youngs)
2. Re: Ebib 0.25 released! (Joost Kremers)
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 17:08:46 +1000
From: Steve Youngs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Ebib-users] Ebib 0.25 released!
To: Ebib Users <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Keywords: ebib,key,ebibrc,user,foo-function,emacs,ebib-foo-map,defined
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
* Joost Kremers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hi list,
Hi list-owner! :-)
> The new version incorporates two suggestions made by Jesse: first,
> the command keys are now customisable.
In what way were they not customisable before?
> Note that the key definitions are now all in .ebibrc. That means
> that if you install the new version, you must also copy the new
> ebibrc to your HOME dir (or at least copy the key definitions to
> your existing .ebibrc), otherwise no command keys will be defined.
Wow, this is an incredibly _bad_ idea. Why are you leaving the
responsibility of default key bindings up to the user?
What happens to the poor user that downloads the Ebib dist tarball,
installs, and then deletes the tarball. Then one day, disaster strikes
and he blows away his ${HOME}[1]...
I also don't see any benefit or point to the `ebib-key' macro.
Isn't...
(define-key ebib-foo-map [(control c) x] #'foo-function)
...good enough?
> I've added a few key bindings, so that C-p, C-n and M-p, M-n now
> do what one would expect in Emacs.
That's great, except you haven't defined M-p/M-n, you've defined
A-p/A-n. Alt != Meta. They quite often are the same key, but not
necessarily.
(define-key ebib-foo-map [(meta n)] #'foo-function)
Is a totally different binding than...
(define-key ebib-foo-map [(alt n)] #'foo-function)
You can even use them both in the one binding...
(define-key ebib-foo-map [(alt meta n)] #'foo-function)
> Jesse made a few other suggestions, that I'm considering
> incorporating. One thing I think I won't do, is to use Emacs'
> standard customisation interface (M-x customize) for Ebib.
I'm not sure how much of Ebib is customisable, but I think this is a mistake.
> Personally, I don't really like this interface,
Neither do I.
> and the elisp code it generates is so cluttered that it can hardly be
> modified by hand.
The type of user that relies on `M-x customize' is most likely _not_
the type of user to look at, or want to modify what it generates. :-)
> Plus, I feel that the little customisation that Ebib might need
> can easily be handled through .ebibrc.
OK, I'm heading off on a bit of a tangent here, but, from what I can
see, there isn't anything in .ebibrc that couldn't be left in
ebib.el. I don't see the need to have an rc file. Couldn't you just
state in the manual... "if you want to add your own entry types, put
(defentry foo-entry (...)) into your init.el/.emacs" ?
Actually, I'd be inclined to turn those `defentry's into `defcustom's,
although I'm not quite sure how hard that would be. :-)
> (I'm of course open to counter-arguments on this point, so please
> let me know if you feel differently.)
The counter argument is that _all_ user-configurable variables should
be defined with `defcustom'.
One last tangent before I finish... Why oh why isn't the manual in
Texinfo format? From there you could generate your PDF and HTML,
while the rest of us can read the Ebib manual inside our emacs in
info. :-)
Footnotes:
[1] Don't laugh, I've done it. :-(
--
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: A94B3003>---|
| I am Dyslexic of Borg. |
| Fusistance is retile. Your arse will be laminated. |
|------------------------------------<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>---|
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 19:06:33 +0200
From: Joost Kremers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Ebib-users] Ebib 0.25 released!
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sat, Aug 19, 2006 at 05:08:46PM +1000, Steve Youngs wrote:
> > The new version incorporates two suggestions made by Jesse: first,
> > the command keys are now customisable.
>
> In what way were they not customisable before?
you needed to hack the source before. of course they were customisable, but
someone that knows latex cannot be assumed to know elisp, i think. even
when they use emacs. ok, they might now enough to add some lines that they
find somewhere via google to their .emacs, but actually going into a larger
source file? i dunno.
> > Note that the key definitions are now all in .ebibrc. That means
> > that if you install the new version, you must also copy the new
> > ebibrc to your HOME dir (or at least copy the key definitions to
> > your existing .ebibrc), otherwise no command keys will be defined.
>
> Wow, this is an incredibly _bad_ idea. Why are you leaving the
> responsibility of default key bindings up to the user?
>
> What happens to the poor user that downloads the Ebib dist tarball,
> installs, and then deletes the tarball. Then one day, disaster strikes
> and he blows away his ${HOME}[1]...
ok, that's a good point.
> I also don't see any benefit or point to the `ebib-key' macro.
> Isn't...
>
> (define-key ebib-foo-map [(control c) x] #'foo-function)
>
> ...good enough?
this and the other two macros are just to sugar-coat lisp syntax a bit for
non-lispers.
> > I've added a few key bindings, so that C-p, C-n and M-p, M-n now
> > do what one would expect in Emacs.
>
> That's great, except you haven't defined M-p/M-n, you've defined
> A-p/A-n. Alt != Meta. They quite often are the same key, but not
> necessarily.
that falls into the category oops... i'll correct it ASAP.
> > Jesse made a few other suggestions, that I'm considering
> > incorporating. One thing I think I won't do, is to use Emacs'
> > standard customisation interface (M-x customize) for Ebib.
>
> I'm not sure how much of Ebib is customisable, but I think this is a mistake.
what is? doing it through M-x customize or *not* doing it through M-x
customize?
> > and the elisp code it generates is so cluttered that it can hardly be
> > modified by hand.
>
> The type of user that relies on `M-x customize' is most likely _not_
> the type of user to look at, or want to modify what it generates. :-)
true. ;-) and most likely people that use latex (and it's safe to assume
that all ebib users do ;-) probably won't be intimidated by having to edit
a config file by hand.
> > Plus, I feel that the little customisation that Ebib might need
> > can easily be handled through .ebibrc.
>
> OK, I'm heading off on a bit of a tangent here, but, from what I can
> see, there isn't anything in .ebibrc that couldn't be left in
> ebib.el. I don't see the need to have an rc file. Couldn't you just
> state in the manual... "if you want to add your own entry types, put
> (defentry foo-entry (...)) into your init.el/.emacs" ?
well, that would be an option, but that would kinda defeat the purpose of
using autoload. not a big deal perhaps, but some people might prefer that
ebib isn't loaded until it's actually used.
> Actually, I'd be inclined to turn those `defentry's into `defcustom's,
> although I'm not quite sure how hard that would be. :-)
but doesn't defcustom imply using M-x customize?
> > (I'm of course open to counter-arguments on this point, so please
> > let me know if you feel differently.)
>
> The counter argument is that _all_ user-configurable variables should
> be defined with `defcustom'.
just like we should all be using MS Windows and Word...
> One last tangent before I finish... Why oh why isn't the manual in
> Texinfo format? From there you could generate your PDF and HTML,
> while the rest of us can read the Ebib manual inside our emacs in
> info. :-)
that's one of jesse's points as well. truth is, i don't know anything about
texinfo. jesse offered to see if he could convert the latex source, though
perhaps i should just dive into it myself.
> Footnotes:
> [1] Don't laugh, I've done it. :-(
i couldn't help but grin. it's never happened to me. yet.
--
Joost Kremers, PhD
Graduate College "Satzarten"
J.W. Goethe University, Frankfurt am Main
Varrentrappstrasse 40-42
60486 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Tel. +49 69 798 28050
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