Re: Closure of the europa mailing list

Joe Latrell
Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:58:04 -0800


All,

It is a sad day, but an understandable one. The list has had a very good run and a lot of people have had the opportunity to sound off on ideas. I for one am glad to have made a few friends along the way :)

Michael, as for the ladder, it is being built, albeit slowly, but it is getting there. We might not be able to build an advanced probe in our garages, but with grace, luck, a little skill and a lot of persistence, we will get something built that may be that starts the big machine in motion. Then again maybe not. The world is funny that way.

But in the end, if we believe in a goal and procede with that ideal in our mind and hearts, we can achieve it. I for one am doing what I can in my own small way. If each of us does this, then we will succeed - within our lifetimes.

Let's go see what's out there.  Let's go exploring.

Joe Latrell
Beyond-Earth Enterprises

Michael Turner wrote:

Larry writes:
"Perhaps now it is best that the list move on to where discussions can be
expanded upon in order to turn the talk into a real Icepick."

The premise of that statement is that discussions here can contribute to a
mission that is, at minimum, a generation in the future.  Any such mission
will require billions of dollars, a great deal of technical groundwork, and
a base of experience accumulated by conducting less ambitious work on the
Moon and on Mars.

When I first joined this list, I looked through the archives and was
intrigued that some people here were actually trying to build something.
However, the more I became acquainted with the actual engineering
requirements of a probe that could reach Europa's ocean, the more
incredulous I became that people were trying to prototype any such probe in
their garages.  I stayed on the list because there was the occasional
posting of interest, and the occasional interesting discussion (even if that
discussion was frequently off-topic.)

If I hadn't been on this list, I would probaby never have met some
interesting people - specifically, Jack Reeve and Gary McMurtry.  It's been
worthwhile for that alone.

On the other hand ... I think there's a certain sense among space
enthusiasts that there's something inherently noble in 'reaching for the
stars.'  The problem is, you don't make upward progress unless you're also
reaching for the next rung of a ladder.  What ladder?  Where?  If one
doesn't exist, how do you build one?  If building such a ladder requires
public money, how do you generate political will?  And if political will
fails to materialize, is this not a recipe for bitterness?

Far-future goals fail to energize and eventually lose their appeal when
there is no near-term satisfaction to be had in pursuing them.  In Tom
Stoppard's play, "The Coast of Utopia" we hear Herzen say, "A distant end is
not an end but a trap.  The end we work for must be closer - the laborer's
wage, the pleasure in the work done, the summer lightning of personal
happiness."  These were the words of a former revolutionary who had become a
political gradualist.  Earlier, he'd groused that "the people are more
interested in potatoes than in freedom."  Eventually he became a realist
about human nature, but without losing hope.

I may live long enough to hear news of Europa's ocean finally being reached.
In the meantime, however, I don't see a *realistic* path to contributing
directly to this goal in my remaining lifetime.  For me, there are better
things to be involved in.

It's still a great goal, don't get me wrong about that.

-michael turner
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of LARRY
KLAES
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 8:59 AM
To: europa@klx.com
Subject: Re: Closure of the europa mailing list


  Posting to the Icepick list has always been something of walking on a
narrow path.
  Too few posts and the list is essentially sterile.  Too many and it gets
clogged up
  and dies.

  I tried to post articles that were either relevant to the discussion of
exploring Europa
  or related to it to better improve the knowledge base of the list.
Obviously if a subject
  gets folks interest they are going to expand on it, and it is rather hard
to contain such
  enthusiasm and bursts of information, which I have seen many times on this
list, and
  which has a far higher signal-to-noise ratio than many similar ones which
purport to
  be about space and related topics.  In the end I could not stop posting or
see other
  posts not happen, because then why have such a list at all?

  I have long hoped - and still do - that discussing the exploration of
Europa with
  submarine probes will help to bring about its reality some day.  I do
appreciate the
  long effort Jeff has made to keep the list and idea alive, which started
off in 1998 as
  a way for the Boston Chapter of the National Space Society (NSS) to have a
space
  project to focus its members energy, time, and talents.

  Perhaps now it is best that the list move on to where discussions can be
expanded upon
  in order to turn the talk into a real Icepick.

  I look forward to seeing where the list will be taken now.  I hope it too
is run as
  well as Jeff has done it and the quality is maintained.  I also hope to
see all of
  you there making your contributions to the exploration of an amazing
world.

  Thanks and regards,

  Larry

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Joe Barrera
    To: europa@klx.com
    Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 8:28 PM
    Subject: Re: Closure of the europa mailing list

    Or I could just host it on polymathy.org... either way.

    Eugen Leitl wrote:

    >On Sat, Feb 26, 2005 at 11:15:30AM -0500, Jeff Foust wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>distribution list as well.  This makes it increasingly difficult to
    >>support the operation of this list.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >Thanks for being our host for so long.
    >
    >
    >
    >>Therefore, I must sadly inform you that this list will be shut down in
    >>one week, on Saturday, March 5.  At that time the list will no longer
    >>relay messages and the list of subscribers will be destroyed.
    >>Hopefully, this one-week period will give any interested parties the
    >>time needed to create and announce a new list to the group.  Again, I
    >>regret having to make such a move, but the current state of Internet
    >>email traffic leaves me no other options.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >As a temporary placeholder (unless a better host comes along; I am
currently
    >unable to offer a highly available system) I've created
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
    >
    >Your Group europa-space has been created. You can access your group
using the
    >link below or from the Yahoo! Groups "My Groups" page.
    >Group name: europa-space
    >Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/europa-space
    >Group email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
    >
    >Post message: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
    >Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
    >Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
    >List owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
    >
    >
    >


    --
    That girl became the spring wind
    She flew somewhere, far away
    Undoing her hair, lying down, in her sleep
    She becomes the wind.


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