EV digest 3059

[Electric Vehicle Discussion List]

                            EV Digest 3059

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Quizno's Radio Spot Bashing EVs?
        by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Tango on CBS Morning Show at 8:30am Tomorrow
        by Rick Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: My Screwup
        by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: technology crossover in racing Re: Race help
        by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) RE: My Screwup
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) RE: technology crossover in racing Re: Race help
        by "Les Montavon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: technology crossover in racing Re: Race help
        by Christopher Chow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: technology crossover in racing Re: Race help
        by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: technology crossover in racing Re: Race help
        by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: 2004 Prius
        by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Race help
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: technology crossover in racing Re: Race help
        by Christopher Chow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Are lithium ions ready for prime time?
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: EV marketing (long) (was: RE: What If America Drove EVs)
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Race help
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Electric Jr Dragsters (was:Race help)
        by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Realistic EV "fuel" consumption figures?
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Swappable Battery Packs, Was Re: Race help
        by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: printed circuit boards
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

--- Begin Message ---

She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed came in from work today and said she heard a Quizno's
radio ad on 97.1 saying something along the lines of: "If you live in LA you
have to have a car. Not an electric car, but a REAL car..."

Anybody else catch this?

Could be time for the old cascade of irate EV driver calls to corporate.

J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

CBS did extensive filming of the Tango for a national news program being
broadcast tomorrow morning at 8:30am, at least in the western states. I'm
not sure if it's at the same time everywhere. It has footage of the Tango
traveling side-by-side in a single lane with a motorcycle. The producer
tells me that they show me smoking the bike going up a hill. I haven't seen
it yet.

The show is called the Early Show or the Morning Show with Hattie Kaufmann.

We have just started accepting orders to be delivered in 6 months for an
$85k carbon fiber Tango. An escrow account is being set up for our first
order this week where we will hold $10k in neutral escrow for 6 months. If
we do not deliver the Tango to complete customer satisfaction within that
time, the whole deposit will be returned without even needing our
permission.

Rick Woodbury                                     Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation          Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways                   Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking            Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114             Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202                      Web: http://www.commutercars.com

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

      Hi Roger and All,
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> James wrote:
> 
> > Well, some of you may remember I had a problem
> with my Henney 
> > Kilowatt a few weeks ago.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, I have STILL not been able to fix
> my screwup.
> > 
> > The situation is a little messy so I made this
> website to to 
> > explain it:
> > 
>
><http://dragontail.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/Screwup/>

      Great details here Roger.

> 
> > And thanks in advance for any help.
> 
> You note on the webpage that you dropped a wrench
> while installing the
> rear pack, and in doing so shorted between a battery
> cable/terminal and
> some part of the contactor controller.  However,
> there is no sign of
> arcing/melting in the picture of the contactor
> controller, and the
> picture of the rear pack doesn't reveal the
> ocntactor controller to be
> visible (particularly not anywhere that a dropped
> wrench seems likely to
> span between it and a battery terminal).
> 
> That aside, it sounds like the last switch from 36V
> to 72V is not being
> made.  Your video of the controller suggests that
> all of the open frame
> contactors except the pair in the middle of the top
> row switch.  I can't
> tell if these might be for reverse, or if they might
> serve as the main
> contactor and so are pulled in continuously during
> the test.
> 
> The charger probably charges the pack as a single
> 72V string, so if
> whatever means connects the pack as a string is
> non-functional, then
> that would stop the charger from working.  However,
> it would not be an
> energised contactor that does this since it would
> then drain the pack
> continuously while parked.
     Not nessasarily. They could use a relay to shut
it off when not charging powered by the ac windings. 
     Or they could use a diode replacing the contactor
in question. While this is great for charging it
leaves the banks at 72 v when off.
    In contactor controllers I like to use this
contactor in series with the main contactor so there
are more contacts inline for less contact wear and
more safety from sticking contactors.
    I just learned this the hard way with my 2 speed
contactor pedal. Burned it right up ;-0. I use it now
to activate the contactors which all turn on and off
at the same time now, either main and high contactors
or main and low contactors.
                 jerry dycus 
 If you can scan the circuit diagram(s) and place
> them on the webpage,
> I'm sure you will receive more specific guidance.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Humm, there may be a problem as they may call that cheating.
Particularly if you start with charged batteries, you may want
to look into using caps for this type of competition. They would
start out flat, you could "prove it" by shorting them out. :) buZAP

Anyway, I think that you may run into trouble if you use batteries,
regardless of the chemistry.  However to keep the advantage you mention
of being able to store excess power for when you need it, caps may
do the trick.

So, if you coupled the Intek 20 ICE to your generator, without an
electrical storage device you loose the advantages of going hybrid.

But to keep it fair and honest you can't use batteries, so caps may
be the solution for you, I think I've mentioned this one to many times
so I'll just stop now..

Good luck with your project, sounds like fun!

L8r
 Ryan

Christopher Chow wrote:

with a hybrid electric off-road race car. The competition is centered
around the Briggs and Stratton Intek 20 ICE engine. Cars can only use this
engine, with no modifications. The rules are free on what type of drivetrain/transmission you can
use. Cars have been built using simple belt CVT's (golf cart
transmision), 5 speed manual transmissions, even hydraulic drives have
been built. Our idea is to run a series hybrid electric transmission which
improves our overall energy efficiancy on the track by using Lion
batteries for "capacitance". While on the slow parts of a track, energy
can be stored until a fast portion of a track comes along. The idea is
that you never need all the energy from the ICE engine all the time.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Jerry wrote:

>      They could use a relay to shut
> it off when not charging powered by the ac windings. 

Good point!  I was only considering contactors powered by the pack when
I suggested that an energised relay would not likely be responsible for
connecting the pack as a 72V string when the car is 'off' for charging.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

That's an interesting race. Sponsored by B&S I suppose. Would like to see
more about it and your hybrid when you get that far.

 -----Original Message-----
From:   [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  On
Behalf Of Christopher Chow
Sent:   Monday, September 22, 2003 5:23 PM
To:     [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:        technology crossover in racing Re: Race help

Im entering this thread late, but I have a few comments.

NASCAR is a terrible example of an automobile race series which has
technology transfer from race track to consumer autos. (Carburators and 2
valves per cylinder) How about Formula 1 and WRC.

I agree, EV's must be fully meshed with the realm of the racing world in
order to grow. One idea is to have rules changes for the varius
racing series' that promote electric drivetrains. To better
illustrate what I mean, motorcycle racing, specifically in MotoGP, all
classes were dominated by 2-stroke engines. As we know, 2-stroke engines
are nasty, oil burning, poluting machines which were simple and produced a
lot of power for their weight/complexity. New rules were introduced which
allowed for larger 4 stroke engines to compete with the 2
strokes. Manufacturers began to put more effort into building 4 stroke
engines and now most of the race bikes use clean 4 stroke engines.
Perhaps something like this should be done with EV's. Rules which not only
allow EV's to compete but rules which give electrics a slight advantage.

I may be giving away too much information, but I will say that My
organization is going to be the first team in SAE Mini-Baja to compete
with a hybrid electric off-road race car. The competition is centered
around the Briggs and Stratton Intek 20 ICE engine. Cars can only use this
engine, with no modifications.
The rules are free on what type of drivetrain/transmission you can
use. Cars have been built using simple belt CVT's (golf cart
transmision), 5 speed manual transmissions, even hydraulic drives have
been built. Our idea is to run a series hybrid electric transmission which
improves our overall energy efficiancy on the track by using Lion
batteries for "capacitance". While on the slow parts of a track, energy
can be stored until a fast portion of a track comes along. The idea is
that you never need all the energy from the ICE engine all the time.

Just some thoughts
Chris



On Mon,
22 Sep 2003, Peter Eckhoff wrote:

> The idea of racing is to make improvements to the vehicles and their
> components.  One of the things NASCAR likes to tout is that the
improvements
> made on the race track are eventually incorporated into the ICEs that we
> drive or have driven.
>
> Taking this to a higher plane:  If Matt Simmons and the two interviews
that
> were published in EVWorld are true
>
> http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=540
> http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=541
> http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=572
>
> and he is not trying to talk up oil stocks (which I don't think he is
> doing), and the PEM fuel cells languish like the efficiency of the solar
> cells because the PEM fuel cells are fragile, need nearly (99.9%) pure
> hydrogen, have dust, sulphur, and other contamination problems, and has an
> exhaust which freezes to the PEM membrane, then electric cars are a great
> solution (They are anyway..) to fill the void between the decline of
> gasoline for ICEs
> (eg http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=547)
> and a PEM fuel cell replacement.
>
> We should be approaching the racing associations not with "we want to race
> (or we will throw a hissy fit)" but that it is in the national interest to
> support electric cars citing the above.  Let's talk rules, let's talk how
we
> can make this entertaining with emphasis on entertainment and good to
great
> Nielsen/fan ratings.  Look what was done with "Pro" vs Olympic
wrestling....
>
> The objectives are:
> 1) to improve electric car electronics
> 2) to improve the batteries
> 3) to improve recharging
> 4) to get EVs accepted into the public domain as a solution to a looming
> national threat
> 5) to show that EVs are a way to fight "terrorism"
>
> Can you imagine a sitcom called "Days of our EV" with the "Benson"
Governor
> and staff, Tim off of Home Improvements, Lex Luthor from Superman
> (representing Big Oil and the Big Three), and murdock (hope you don't mind
> me using your name for this) fighting the system!!!!  Based on fact,
> delivered with humor.
>
> Just some thoughts....
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 16:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Race help
>
>
> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > >
> > > Obviously it would have to be a robotic system to achieve that kind of
> > > time.  The cordless drill example was only to illustrate a point.
> > >
> > > Imagine the robotic system it would take to disconnect and remove a
500
> > > lbs battery and then put it down, pick up a second 500 lb battery,
> > > precisely insert it and then connect it.  All in five seconds.
> > > Shouldn't cost more than about 10-20 million dollars to develope the
> > > first one, after that they will probably only cost one or two million
> > > each.
> > >
> > > I'm sure you'll find a lot of weekend racers with one in their garage.
> > >
> > > P.S. it's entirely possible that I am underestimating the costs
> > > involved.
> >
> > I suspect you are. :-) One should never assume a thing is impossible
> > just because you don't know how to do it.
> >
> > Bob Schneeviess's 'Sno-White' race car had fast-change batteries. The
> > batteries were housed in boxes on each side of the car. The box had a
> > hinged lid. The interconnects between batteries, and power connections
> > to the car were handled by connectors on the lid of the box. Pop open
> > the box, and all the batteries are disconnected. Teams would physically
> > grab the batteries, pull them out, and stack new ones in the box. Slam
> > the cover, and you're ready to go! I never saw them do it, but
> > understand that with a well-trained crew they could change them very
> > fast!
> >
> > Standard industrial lift trucks have had quick-change battery packs for
> > decades. They usually just open a door, unplug the big Anderson
> > connector, and shove the battery out on rollers. The new one rolls back
> > in. Plug it in, close the door, and go.
> >
> > I'm sure someone could design a battery pack that comes out with a
> > pallet truck or fork lift in just seconds. Hit a switch, and motors
> > unlock all the latches. Push the new pack in from one side and it shoves
> > the old pack out the other side.
> >
> > If you want *real* elecric racing, why not set up the track like the
> > bumper cars at the carnival? The floor is one conductor, and the ceiling
> > is the other. With no batteries at all in the cars, they can be very
> > fast and light!
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
> > 814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
> > Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
> >
> >
>

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

We have thought of cap's but do not know how to use them. Most of us are
Mechanical engineers. If anyone out there would like point me to some
information on how to integrate capacitors into a hybrid please email
me. 
You are correct in mentioning the problem with "energy storage" Our rules
state that all energy storage must be at zero potential. Odviously, this
rule is not written with batteries in mind, as zero volts would distroy
any batteries. 

It seems as though you know about the Mini-Baja series. Have you been
involved with SAE before/still?

Chris

 On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Lightning Ryan wrote:

> Humm, there may be a problem as they may call that cheating.
> Particularly if you start with charged batteries, you may want
> to look into using caps for this type of competition. They would
> start out flat, you could "prove it" by shorting them out. :) buZAP
> 
> Anyway, I think that you may run into trouble if you use batteries,
> regardless of the chemistry.  However to keep the advantage you mention
> of being able to store excess power for when you need it, caps may
> do the trick.
> 
> So, if you coupled the Intek 20 ICE to your generator, without an
> electrical storage device you loose the advantages of going hybrid.
> 
> But to keep it fair and honest you can't use batteries, so caps may
> be the solution for you, I think I've mentioned this one to many times
> so I'll just stop now..
> 
> Good luck with your project, sounds like fun!
> 
> L8r
>   Ryan
> 
> 
> Christopher Chow wrote:
> > with a hybrid electric off-road race car. The competition is centered
> > around the Briggs and Stratton Intek 20 ICE engine. Cars can only use this
> > engine, with no modifications. 
> > The rules are free on what type of drivetrain/transmission you can
> > use. Cars have been built using simple belt CVT's (golf cart
> > transmision), 5 speed manual transmissions, even hydraulic drives have
> > been built. Our idea is to run a series hybrid electric transmission which
> > improves our overall energy efficiancy on the track by using Lion
> > batteries for "capacitance". While on the slow parts of a track, energy
> > can be stored until a fast portion of a track comes along. The idea is
> > that you never need all the energy from the ICE engine all the time.
> 

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

No, never been involved with the Mini-Baja series, but I've always
loved Baja.  And I like your solution, being into EVs.

I am probably not the best to give advice on caps, but here's what
I do know.  They have a much longer lifespan than batteries, not that
this would make much difference to your project.  They hold a charge
statically as opposed to chemecally.

They "go flat" much quicker than a battery.
They can charge and discharge much quicker though,
 that is you can dump a lot more power into them.
Their voltage will drop more dramatically than a battery.
Which means that if you were to charge a bank of them to 96v
 that they would drop below this level quickly under load.
I'm not sure exactly how to overcome this, but it probably
involves charging them to a higher voltage so that the drop
isn't so drastic.

Unfortunently I have probably created more questions
than answers for you, sorry about that.

There have been some other projects that have used caps,
you may want to search out those teams for more technical
answers and solutions.

Anyway, good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

L8r
 Ryan

Christopher Chow wrote:

We have thought of cap's but do not know how to use them. Most of us are
Mechanical engineers. If anyone out there would like point me to some
information on how to integrate capacitors into a hybrid please email
me. You are correct in mentioning the problem with "energy storage" Our rules
state that all energy storage must be at zero potential. Odviously, this
rule is not written with batteries in mind, as zero volts would distroy
any batteries.

It seems as though you know about the Mini-Baja series. Have you been
involved with SAE before/still?

Chris

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

       Hi Christopher and All,
         Ah, more details.
--- Christopher Chow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Im entering this thread late, but I have a few
> comments.
> 
> NASCAR is a terrible example of an automobile race
> series which has
> technology transfer from race track to consumer
> autos. (Carburators and 2
> valves per cylinder) How about Formula 1 and WRC. 
> 
> I agree, EV's must be fully meshed with the realm of
> the racing world in
> order to grow. One idea is to have rules changes for
> the varius
> racing series' that promote electric drivetrains. To
> better 
> illustrate what I mean, motorcycle racing,
> specifically in MotoGP, all
> classes were dominated by 2-stroke engines. As we
> know, 2-stroke engines
> are nasty, oil burning, poluting machines which were
> simple and produced a
> lot of power for their weight/complexity. New rules
> were introduced which 
> allowed for larger 4 stroke engines to compete with
> the 2
> strokes. Manufacturers began to put more effort into
> building 4 stroke
> engines and now most of the race bikes use clean 4
> stroke engines.
     They were forced to change by new emmisions
rules. Otherwise they would still be making the same
old junk.

> Perhaps something like this should be done with
> EV's. Rules which not only
> allow EV's to compete but rules which give electrics
> a slight advantage. 
> 
> I may be giving away too much information, but I
> will say that My
> organization is going to be the first team in SAE
> Mini-Baja to compete
> with a hybrid electric off-road race car. The
> competition is centered
> around the Briggs and Stratton Intek 20 ICE engine.
> Cars can only use this
> engine, with no modifications. 
    Can you use different fuels other than gas? More
hp if so.


> The rules are free on what type of
> drivetrain/transmission you can
> use. Cars have been built using simple belt CVT's
> (golf cart
> transmision), 5 speed manual transmissions, even
> hydraulic drives have
> been built. Our idea is to run a series hybrid
      To win you need to use both the E and the ICE to
the wheels. You lose power just generating E and
converting it back to torque. About 20% loss with
Lynch type motors.
       Instead add the E and the ICE for more power
and regen for eff and brake help.
       A good eff way would be to use 1 48 v E-tek
motor on the Intek 20 shaft and a clutch from the
shaft to the 2 to 4 speed trans. Also to the trans
another E-tek.
    The first E-tek starts, adds 27hp peak and
generates power to the batts.  The second on the trans
add 27 peak hp and regen, braking depending on which
side of the clutch it's on.
     Use a 9 to 35 amphr ni-cad hi power cells, batts
for 48 vdc or a AGM lead/acid batts like the Hawker
batts. Sevcon makes a great controllers for these at a
good price that's rugged.
     That gives you 54 peak E hp and about 20 ICE hp,
should leave the others in the dust. Maybe you only
need 1 E motor.
      The E part would weigh about 100 lbs depending
on batt choice.
      I'll save you some time looking up caps, they
are NOT worth it. The biggest ones only hold 1/2 sec
of charge!!! Batts do much better.
       You can check out these motors, controllers at
EVPARTS on the web. Also sold by battlebot sites.
          HTH, 
              jerry dycus
> electric transmission which
> improves our overall energy efficiancy on the track
> by using Lion
> batteries for "capacitance". While on the slow parts
> of a track, energy
> can be stored until a fast portion of a track comes
> along. The idea is
> that you never need all the energy from the ICE
> engine all the time.
> 
> Just some thoughts
> Chris
> 
> 


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

humm, from memory that pack is 6kwh, and I believe that it has
gone nearly 30 miles, that's 200wh/mile.  Seems right.

I know that someone had tested this by intentionally blocking the fuel
supply so that the ICE could not start, there were a lot of flashing
warning lights but they went much further than the 6 miles people expect
it to go.

The Prius can only go ~40mph in electric mode, actually it will go
faster but past this speed it must begin turning the ice with
electric power, not very effecient.

As many people argue, the pack is not ment to be used this way, and it
would most likely shorten it's life.

Here are some threads on this topic. Actually on Grid-Enableing hybrids.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/message/55683
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/honda-hybrid/message/11462

Anyway.
L8r
 Ryan

Martin wrote:

I was under the impression that the Prius only had a relatively small battery pack.
Would it be significantly beneficial to be able to plug it in, if it can only go a short distance on battery only?

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >

> 
> I suspect you are. :-) One should never assume a thing is impossible
> just because you don't know how to do it.
> 
> Bob Schneeviess's 'Sno-White' race car had fast-change batteries. The
> batteries were housed in boxes on each side of the car. The box had a
> hinged lid. The interconnects between batteries, and power connections
> to the car were handled by connectors on the lid of the box. Pop open
> the box, and all the batteries are disconnected. Teams would physically
> grab the batteries, pull them out, and stack new ones in the box. Slam
> the cover, and you're ready to go! I never saw them do it, but
> understand that with a well-trained crew they could change them very
> fast!

> fast and light!
> --
> Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen


Lets not forget, that I have seen this in action. I was very impressed.
I still am.
        I also know that getting the mechanisims to really work and not melt
was a pain. Cute, needed some real attention to get it to work right.
The charge   in place has it's pro's and cons first is the ability to
record Kwhrs in and out, and deduce the state of charge of the whole
pack. Ripping cell out of a string
is a great way to loose all pertinant cycle life and state of charge
info. Yea it works for racing, yea it can be fast. 
        I still don't like it for long cycle life and daily service work. I may
retreat from my stance on this, but I think I can to it better and darn
near as fast. And still catch all the battery life data.

Cruising Equipment made a Data Bug that staid with the removable battery
module so they could do just this with removable packs. I am not sure
where the product went since we parted company about that time. Good
idea, I am not sure how well it worked.

 



-- 
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

ICE Hp 9.0 HP
Typical vehical weight 400lbs

We belive that a parallel hybrid is just too complex. The idea of running
an electric motor on the same shaft of the engine just can't be fit in
with the generator. Not to mention a gearbox and clutch! The driver
has enough trouble sterring. With our current concept, the system is 100
lbs greater than our conventional drivetrain. Which is more than we would
like, but ok, if we can make up for it in peak power. We would like to
have a car that will be able to be on average (track wise) have more power
to the ground. Durring the race there are many spots where we are not on
full throttle (ICE only car).

Chris


On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, jerry dycus wrote:

>        Hi Christopher and All,
>          Ah, more details.
> --- Christopher Chow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Im entering this thread late, but I have a few
> > comments.
> > 
> > NASCAR is a terrible example of an automobile race
> > series which has
> > technology transfer from race track to consumer
> > autos. (Carburators and 2
> > valves per cylinder) How about Formula 1 and WRC. 
> > 
> > I agree, EV's must be fully meshed with the realm of
> > the racing world in
> > order to grow. One idea is to have rules changes for
> > the varius
> > racing series' that promote electric drivetrains. To
> > better 
> > illustrate what I mean, motorcycle racing,
> > specifically in MotoGP, all
> > classes were dominated by 2-stroke engines. As we
> > know, 2-stroke engines
> > are nasty, oil burning, poluting machines which were
> > simple and produced a
> > lot of power for their weight/complexity. New rules
> > were introduced which 
> > allowed for larger 4 stroke engines to compete with
> > the 2
> > strokes. Manufacturers began to put more effort into
> > building 4 stroke
> > engines and now most of the race bikes use clean 4
> > stroke engines.
>      They were forced to change by new emmisions
> rules. Otherwise they would still be making the same
> old junk.
> 
> > Perhaps something like this should be done with
> > EV's. Rules which not only
> > allow EV's to compete but rules which give electrics
> > a slight advantage. 
> > 
> > I may be giving away too much information, but I
> > will say that My
> > organization is going to be the first team in SAE
> > Mini-Baja to compete
> > with a hybrid electric off-road race car. The
> > competition is centered
> > around the Briggs and Stratton Intek 20 ICE engine.
> > Cars can only use this
> > engine, with no modifications. 
>     Can you use different fuels other than gas? More
> hp if so.
> 
> 
> > The rules are free on what type of
> > drivetrain/transmission you can
> > use. Cars have been built using simple belt CVT's
> > (golf cart
> > transmision), 5 speed manual transmissions, even
> > hydraulic drives have
> > been built. Our idea is to run a series hybrid
>       To win you need to use both the E and the ICE to
> the wheels. You lose power just generating E and
> converting it back to torque. About 20% loss with
> Lynch type motors.
>        Instead add the E and the ICE for more power
> and regen for eff and brake help.
>        A good eff way would be to use 1 48 v E-tek
> motor on the Intek 20 shaft and a clutch from the
> shaft to the 2 to 4 speed trans. Also to the trans
> another E-tek.
>     The first E-tek starts, adds 27hp peak and
> generates power to the batts.  The second on the trans
> add 27 peak hp and regen, braking depending on which
> side of the clutch it's on.
>      Use a 9 to 35 amphr ni-cad hi power cells, batts
> for 48 vdc or a AGM lead/acid batts like the Hawker
> batts. Sevcon makes a great controllers for these at a
> good price that's rugged.
>      That gives you 54 peak E hp and about 20 ICE hp,
> should leave the others in the dust. Maybe you only
> need 1 E motor.
>       The E part would weigh about 100 lbs depending
> on batt choice.
>       I'll save you some time looking up caps, they
> are NOT worth it. The biggest ones only hold 1/2 sec
> of charge!!! Batts do much better.
>        You can check out these motors, controllers at
> EVPARTS on the web. Also sold by battlebot sites.
>           HTH, 
>               jerry dycus
> > electric transmission which
> > improves our overall energy efficiancy on the track
> > by using Lion
> > batteries for "capacitance". While on the slow parts
> > of a track, energy
> > can be stored until a fast portion of a track comes
> > along. The idea is
> > that you never need all the energy from the ICE
> > engine all the time.
> > 
> > Just some thoughts
> > Chris
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> 

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Peter Eckhoff wrote:
> Do you think that this might be the reason that Toyota and Honda are
> sticking with NiMH instead of going with Lithium?

[i.e. LiIon have higher internal resistance than nimh] Probably, but I
don't really know for sure.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

> When someone tells you the ICE is better or something like that, find a way
> to agree with them and then explain why an EV is better. If you must respond
> to something like the ICE is better statement, say something innocuous like
> "they have been around a long time".

Yes they have, nearly as long as electric vehicles.  Well maybe not that
long, but ICEs have been around a long time.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 10:19, Andrew Letton wrote:
> Bob Schneeveis' SnoWhite team did 13-second swaps of the two 10-Optima 
> battery packs about a decade ago at the Phoenix races.
> 

Wow!   That's impressive.  While it's nearly three times as long as the 5 second
figure, that is much faster than I though they were doing it.

Still, no matter how fast you can swap batteries it won't give you any advantage 
over ICE power sources in an even race.

Let's be realistic here folks.  Even if you figure out how to swap a 500 lb 
battery pack in five seconds, the same method could be applied to a 500 lb
fuel cell.  Who do you think will go further and faster in a 24 hr race?

So then you say that ICEs aren't reliable enough and if they fail you're out of 
the race.  Why?  The basic premis of this race is it has to have an electric 
drivetrain, that means we are talking series hybrid here.  No need to disconnect 
the motor from the tranny because it ain't connected.  Just make the ICE and 
generator a removeable module and pop in a new one.

In fact if you are really concerned about it you could build the ICE, generator,
fuel cell and controls into a 500 lb module and swap the whole thing out at each 
pitstop.  You wont go as far as you would with 500 lbs of fuel, but you'd still 
be able to go three to four times as far as you could with 500 lbs of LiIons or 
any other battery pack.  While you're out racing the pit crew can refuel the module 
and test and repair any problems with the ICE, even replace the ICE at their leisure.

I'm sorry but in a straight up 24 hr race there is no way that current technology 
battery powered vehicles can come close to ICE hybrids.

Sure you can stack the deck against the Hybrids, but that pretty much invalidates 
the basic premis (proving that EVs are just as good).  You could run different 
brackets, but again that just serves to prove that EVs aren't as good.

If you want to show off EVs then you need a race that plays to EVs strong points 
and a 24hr endurance race 'aint it.


It's a moot point anyway since the race isn't going to happen.  After all APS races 
folded because they couldn't get enough support for an EV race that lasted, what?  and 
hour?

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---
At 08:10 AM 9/22/03, Dennis wrote:

More ev racers should go to the track and race the ices bracket racing.(This
is the largest form of drag racing in the country)I have been telling the
nedra mangement this for years,they continue with the closed track,our own track
mentality for years.

Used to be there was no choice. Before NEDRA, you could only race EVs in the exhibition class. We weren't allowed on the track then. Only at the whim of the local NHRA official. Now, any electric-powered vehicle can race at any local NHRA event door-to-door with the gas guys in any bracket race.

Several years back, the NHRA wanted to "put Dennis in a box" and prevent him from participating in bracket racing with the gas cars. It as only though the hard lobbying by NEDRA that changed the NHRA rules to allow Dennis to continue to race. No joke.

I can see now how grateful you are for our efforts.

How soon we forget. :^)

Now they are asking NHRA to not allow electric jounior
racing against the ice jrs.

You must lie awake nights dreaming up this crap.

NEDRA has been pushing hard to get electrics accepted in the Jr Dragster rules for several years. It has been tough going but we have persevered. When the rules went to NHRA committee, the NHRA decided that it would not be fair to allow electrics to compete directly against gas-powered Jr Dragsters because the electrics are so much more consistent and would have a big advantage over the gas cars.

The NHRA has finally officially allowed electrics, but they have decided to put them in a separate class (like alcohol fueled cars.) This is not what NEDRA wanted, but what the NHRA decided to do on their own. This was a disappointment to NEDRA, but at least electrics are allowed to participate now.

Without NEDRA, there would no electric Jr Dragsters at all. Up to this point, electrics could not compete at all in Jr Dragster racing. Now they can.

It is likely that the electric class will become quite popular, once the competitors see how easy they are to maintain, how inexpensive they are to run, and how consistent they are.

This is our future growing up.Nedra (ROD)says they are
to consient,how can they know that,its not true.I have been in at least 200
bracket races with my Current Eliminator dragster through the last 12 years
racing the ices(the bucks bracket races make you play buy the summit race
rules,have any electronics,you are in the pro class,12sec and quicker)I have won 2
about $700.dollars.I have been within $5000 twice.I believe I know my electric
dragster very well,and I have bracket raced it for years and have over 3500 runs
on it.I have devised 12 minute turnarounds so I could play by existing NHRA
rules,now nedra mangement could ultimaly take that away,if the Nhra believes
nedra these jr. rules may transfer to all of us.

I think you need to get your prescription renewed. This has no connection with reality.

I have gotten 3 locals wanting
to build jrs.but who will they race if nedra gets its way.

They can race each other and show off their cars to the gas guys. Who could they race before? No one. A partial victory is better than nothing.

There are 2 completed
jrs. now,they will be banned from bracket racing.

Now this is crazy. Just the opposite has occurred. They couldn't bracket race at all before. Now they can. This is bad?

Also, now they can "grudge match" against the gas Jr Dragsters if they care to. It will be fun for the electrics to show the gas cars up in grudge matches.

Rod you have recently

told me to race my way and you and nedra will race your way,get out of the dark
ages,our out of office allow electric jrs to race against ices,drag racing is
the only type of racing that electrics can be competive at.You may sell more
parts Rod open your eyes.....Until the wisard Oatmar devises a watt counting
controller,that also measures wind speed and direction,battery temp and state of
charge,weight of driver,tire speed,commutator film,bearing condition,ect,ect
electrics will only be as coninsent as the ice drag racers.

I shouldn't say this, but perhaps "pilot error" enters in the equation somewhere. :^)

When I turn it down below record-breaking performance, the KillaCycle is deadly in bracket racing. Almost unbeatable if the driver cuts a good light.

I remember standing next to the starter, pointing my finger (not unlike Babe Ruth) at the scoreboard at the end of the track, and saying "11.74". Five seconds later, as Kerry crossed the finish line, the lights on the board read "11.74". The starter looked at me slack-jawed. I held my finger to my lips and said, "Shhh."

Bracket racing with an electric against gas cars is like shooting fish in a barrel. At least it can be if you set up the car conservatively and you can cut a good light.

Properly set-up, an electric can be as consistent as a CNC milling machine. I mean, electrics are allowed to have computer-controlled motor speed and torque for god's sake. The throttle response is instant. Air temperature and barometric pressure have no effect. The only thing that would help more would be a head start!

        Nerda
OUTLAW(but ev racer and promoter)  Dennis Kill A Watt Berube 3500 qt.mi.runs
in an ev

Only because NEDRA stood up for you with the NHRA. Otherwise, you would probably not be racing at all.

   _ /|        Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
  \'o.O'     <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
       U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Y'all did see where I said "most" didn't you?  Most doesn't mean "All"

I know that a lot of folks do really well here, but "most" means more
than 50% and I'll stand by my statement that "most" EVs get 250-300
watts per mile from the pack.

"Most" evs are charged with chargers that aren't all that efficient.
80-85% is probably pretty close.

"Most" EVs use GC batteries that are only about 80% efficient at energy
storage.  Add to that that "most" people run monthly to weekly
equalization charges (that are negative efficiency, energy wise)

As the batteries age "most" people run more frequent equalization
charges (running the efficiency down even more).

At least one person has posted real measured numbers that coincide with
my statement and in the past other folks have posted real measured
numbers (not guestimates) that indicate similar finds (around 500 watts
per mile, from the outlet, averaged over time)

On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 13:42, Lee Hart wrote:
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Most conversions get 250-300 watts per mile...from the battteries.
> > When you figure in charger efficiency, battery efficiency,
> > finishing charge and equalization charges. The power from the
> > outlet is at least 50% more and possibly 100% or more as the
> > batteries get older.
> 
> This may be about right for the auto company EVs, or heavier EV
> conversions. But my little LeCar beats it handily, and I suspect any
> converted VW Rabbit or Geo Metro would do the same.
> 
> I use about 70 amps at 60 mph; that's only 9.24kw, or 154 wh/mile. After
> charging losses, it's about 250 wh/mile from the AC outlet. And that's
> with 5-year-old batteries.
> 
> Aaron Birenboim provided another such data point:
> > My force gets about 250 watt-hours/mile from the WALL.
> > Thats with a Zivan NG3 charger, which runs bulk
> > charge at a 0.7 power factor.
> > It burns about 150 watt-hours/mile from the batteries.
-- 
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message --- The APC Symmetra UPS arrays use battery pack modules that slide into racks. Why not build 50 lb. battery modules with some kind of fixed quick disconnect on the end. Pull 10 modules out and pop 10 modules in. A pit crew of 20 could do this in no time, and if you had half the modules installed from each side of the car, it would keep the crews from fighting for space on one side of the car. With good coordination, you could probably have two pit crew members working on each side of the car and be done in 10 seconds. (And a 50 lb. battery modules can't be much heavier than the wheels and tires.)

Tim

_________________________________________________________________
Instant message during games with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com
--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Radio shack use to sell kits for making your own circuit cards.
Basically either an Acid resistant ink pen or acid resistant tape, a
copper clad board, and the appropriate acid to etc it with.

I use to make tons of boards this way.  Then they came out with a nifty
film that you could run through a laser printer or copier.  You'd design
the board in your favorite layout program, prit it out (either directly
onto the film or on paper and photocopy it onto the film) then use an
Iron to transfer the Toner from the film onto the copper clad board. 
You'd then dunk it in the acid like before and get a high quality
circuit board.

You can find the transfer film advertised in electronics magazines and
all over on the internet.  Most places that carry the film will also
sell you the acid (usually in "dry" form, just add water)

On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 12:17, Paul G wrote:
> I was wondering, is there any way to make a circuit board in single 
> unit quantities inexpensively? What I have in mind is a new 12v 
> wiring system for my EV Buggy, I would like to replace the currently 
> laced up 12v wiring system with one where most everything would be on 
> one board and all wires would go from there in bundles to their 
> destinations. A double sided board would be nice, but I'm pretty sure 
> I can design for a single sided board.
> 
> I've seen copper clad boards and the thought occurred to me that if 
> they where available with a little extra thickness it may be possible 
> to use a router to make the circuit pattern. I doubt this is a new 
> issue, so I figure (hope) there must be some available answer to 
> paying for paying for custom etched boards in single unit quantities.
> 
> Neon
-- 
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

--- End Message ---