Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:19:49 -0800
EV Digest 3208
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) a lurker reveals himself even more
by Kim Rose <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: hybrid car feasibility
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: a lurker reveals himself
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Two Vintage EV items for sale
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Update from "Suck Amps EV Racing" Etek vs Lynch Motors
by "Christian Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: a lurker reveals himself
by Kim Rose <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) 2004 Tour de Sol annouced
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Battery advice: SLA vs AGM
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Chinese BYD EV - 77mph - 250 Mile Range
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Ammeter needed
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) MB100 battery reaches 125 cycles
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) LiIon Sparrow stability (was: RE: Slow progress on installing LiIon in my Sparrow)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Charging hardware advice (was 220, 221,...whatever it takes)
by "Anthony, Jude J (N-SAIC)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Ammeter needed
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: LiIon Sparrow stability
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: another question about the Prestolite MTC-4001
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Charging hardware advice (was 220, 221,...whatever it takes)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: electric cars and snow
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Fire extinguisher for li-ion batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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--- Begin Message --- Actually, there were several hybrids in popular magazines. The Opel GT one you are describing was a 70's Mother Earth News article, they claimed 75 mpg. They sold plans for it, and I still have a set. The setup was silly. Four 12 volt starting batteries wired in series feeding an aircraft generator being used as a motor driving the original tranny. A 5 hp B&S engine was belted up to a 24 volt 200 amp aircraft generator to keep the batteries charged. Instead of a controller, they used a rheostat controlled fan motor spinning the com from a Lucas starter. The idea was to make a kind of poor man's pulse controller. The car absolutely could not work as claimed.
A few month later, after selling lots of plans, the magazine built a version themselves. They based it on a Subaru. They switched to golf cart batteries, and used a Lombardini diesel engine. They got 83 mpg until the batteries were discharged, then it dropped to about 40 mpg. The top speed was only 45 mph. They used a series parallel control system as they could not get the pulser thing to work.
Basically, this whole thing was simply a case of the magazine falling for the claims of the guy that built the car, without ever checking to see if it worked. This is the article that got me interested in electric cars though.
Mechanic Illustrated sold plans for a scratch built hybrid, as well as several electrics. You can still find them on the web at:
http://www.rqriley.com
Thanks,
Mike Chancey, '88 Civic EV '95 Solectria Force (eventually) '94 Ranger EV Kansas City, Missouri EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
At 01:05 AM 12/7/2003, BORTEL wrote:Does anybody remember the Opal GT hybrid that Popular Mechanics did back in the 60's? It had an aircraft start/gen motor located where the tranny should be and direct coupled to the drive shaft. It also had a little Briggs genset that ran at full capacity all the time charging the batteries. They claim it got some major mpg, but I don't think it had a plug in capability. If anybody has a copy of the arcticle it would be nice to get a scan.
Dan
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--- Begin Message ---Another possibility for batteries, at least for the prototyping and test stage, is sealed lead acid. They can be stacked quickly into the frame sideways or upside down if necessary to make better use of space (can YT's be mounted sideways?). I use Chinese wheelchair batteries, 55 Ahr, $80 each retail. If you decide to go with YT's later, you can donate the wheelchair batteries to a local handicap organization. That's what I'm doing on the Honda 350 project: http://www.geocities.com/thomassonmj/electric_honda.html Mark T. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 1:50 AM Subject: Re: a lurker reveals himself > With that much battery weight you won't get much more than 20 miles range. > That bike should be able to carry more like 250 in batteries for a 30 to 40 > mile range. I can imagine 4 batteries under the tank and a couple sticking > out the sides to mimic the aircooled cylinder heads. It would weigh 250 > pounds and you can use regular 42 pound Optimas. You bike has better > carrying power and brakes than the Lectra. It will also cost about the same > and you will be much happier. Going to use a Curtis 1221 controller? > Lawrence Rhodes..... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kim Rose" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 10:28 AM > Subject: Re: a lurker reveals himself > > > > after weighing the stuff that I have removed from the > bike(engine,radiator,tank,exhaust,etc) it looks like I can carry at least a > couple hundred pounds of batteries. I'm thinking I can go with optima yellow > tops, group 51's. They are only 27 lbs each. and have 72 volts at about 165 > lbs. > > I have some property in Malibu just above one of the biggest weekend biker > hangouts in the Los Angeles area. I want to drive into the parking lot with > my EMW and have lunch with the noisy masses, then take off in a flash.... > > Gadget > > > > Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Now that I see the tranny I have to ask what weight of batteries you want > to > > carry. It might make a difference in the voltage. With gears you can stay > > in the A89 torque zone and might be able to do 60 at lower voltages. > > Lawrence Rhodes.... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ken Trough" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 9:36 PM > > Subject: Re: a lurker reveals himself > > > > > > > > I'm working on a BMW motorcycle conversion. The EMW. so far I have > > > > mated the motor to the cycle tranny. It's an Advance DC A89-4001, 6.7" > > > > motor. For a zippy bike, what's the recommended voltage? 72? > > > > > > Great work so far! Looks good. > > > > > > I'm also using this motor for a custom electric cycle project. > > > Everything I have heard from the NEDRA people I have talked to seems to > > > indicate that this motor can handle 96V. I'm thinking I'm going to start > > > it at 72V and see how it does just to be on the safe side, then kick it > > > up to 84V then 96V if things look good. > > > > > > Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. > > > > > > -Ken Trough > > > http://visforvoltage.com > > > 24 hour AIM - ktrough > > > 24 hour message center - 866-872-8901 > > > > > > >
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--- Begin Message ---Hello All - here's that stuff for sale that I mentioned As promised....or threatened, yesterday I said I would run a couple of old EV items by the EV List before putting them on eBay. I just created a couple of web pages with pictures of the items for your viewing pleasure. The first is a damn....I mean dam ammeter. An ammeter that came from a dam. http://www.geocities.com/evguy_2000/ammeter You'll be joining Roderick Wilde as an owner of one of these rare, useful, and unusual items. I used to think that the scale was too big....but with the chargers Rich Rudman is putting out these days it's just right! It's big and beefy...check out the size of the quarter sitting on top. I'm thinking around $20-$30 or best offer + shipping to whoever wants it. The other item is an unused, full, bottle of Avon aftershave in an antique EV shaped bottle, new in box. http://www.geocities.com/evguy_2000/EVaftershave Also a "famous" item, as John Wayland has handled both the box and the bottle itself. It's in great shape except for a small area of road rash gotten while it traveled to John's house. Point out the road rash to your friends and tell them how it got there, it's sure to enhance it's value and your enjoyment of the item as well. I'm guessing five bux, or best offer + shipping will get it to you in time for Christmas. P.S. I can't think of anything else like this that I'll be selling, so not to worry about me advertising on the List regularly....and I promise to post more tire smoking adventures of my EV Ghia with the 8 year old Optimas as soon as I have them. The Optimas are still running remarkably strong, but I have the feeling they are getting pretty deep into their sunset years....and the new issue of Electric and Hybrid magazine showed up yesterday. For those of you who like to say "Fool Cell", the new term may be "Fuel Sell". ...John Bryan
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--- Begin Message ---Against what's in the Glectric GPR (electric motorsports: Motor: Lynch Type Motor (Rear Earth Magnet) Power: 10+ kW Rpm: 3460 ; 48 Volt 44 Ah Pack; 15 peak HP) how does the Perm Motor compare in terms of real power? I plan on getting an Electric GPR, but, still, I'm curious about shoveling in more power. Christian K. The Electric GPR is at http://www.electricmotorsport.com/EGPR/specs.htm -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roderick Wilde Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 4:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Update from "Suck Amps EV Racing" We now have the front motor installed with the Quaife posi unit installed in the 1991 VW Carrado transaxle and a lightened racing flywheel from Autotech www.autotech.com with a Centerforce www.centrforce.com 228 mm racing clutch and pressure plate. This feeds the 1997 VW Passat hubs with discs. These hubs are supported by custom H&R coil over shocks www.hrsprings.com which have small springs. H&R is located here in Western Washington in Bellingham and they hand delivered the shocks. I took the driver, John, for a ride he'll never forget in our shop golf cart. On one corner the left wheels came off the ground about a foot. It goes 0 to 50 mph real quick. we run 120 volts on a stock 36 volt motor through a high speed gear set. The small spring diameter struts allow the custom made 11" by 17" aluminum Trilogy III rims by Budnik Wheels www.budnik.com to have a 5.5" back spacing so the twelve inch wide 315/35 X 17 Nitto Extreme Drag Radials won't stick out past the body more than two or three inches. Can you say "roller-skate" :-) The rear aluminum box has been welded up. Two 8" Sparrow motors are getting mounted on either side. They each drive two Goodyear Eagle herringbone style belts on the inner side of the box to a hub that has an outer 100 mm modified VW axle drive flange. The axles to be custom made of heat treated 4340 to adapt to the 1992 Subaru Legacy hubs with brake rotors. Casey, our FX guy and fabricator, has almost finished the 6 point roll cage. Roll bars are required by the NHRA for cars that do 11.99 seconds or quicker. I like to be not only optimistic but also safe. The rear aluminum box also bolts to the rear roll bar struts as do the upper shock towers. This will give us the needed stiffness for SCCA autocross events. The cage will also allow us to run at the Bonneville Salt Flats at some future date if they ever decide to make street classes for electric cars. Right now you have to compete against streamliners and I'll tell you this postal van definitely does not have a low coefficient of drag. Well, maybe compared to a 737 hanger door. David Cloud got a cameo appearance on Friday when he drove down from Woodinville to deliver some orangeboard. An extremely light and strong composite board used for the floors of Boeing airplanes. We like to use it for battery boxes as it is not conductive and lightweight. I gave him a new 24 volt 1.6 kw Perm Motor from Germany www.perm-motor.de to test in an electrathon to determine if we wish to carry them. They are designed exactly like a Lynch. They also cost much less than the Lynch but more than the Eteks. They also make a 7.22 kw, 24 to 72 volt version. Also appearing this week in cameo spots will be our EV Listers Otmar "Zilla" Ebenhoech, Rich "Madman" Rudman and Paul "Neon" Gooch. Crunch time is here. We have to finish this vehicle this week. Next week it goes to the paint shop in Casey's BMW repair shop in Shelton for the silver with electric blue metalflake paint. It's going to be a very insane week with this many amped out ampheads in one room. More to follow. Roderick "Suck Amps EV Racing"
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--- Begin Message ---The 2004 Tour de Sol has been announced at http://www.TourdeSol.org In a nut shell ... The Tour de Sol The Great American Green Transportation Festival May 21-25, 2004 Friday, May 21 Press and by-invitation-only day Saturday, May 22 "Green car show and more" in Westchester County, New York 10am-5pm Sunday, May 23 "Green car show and more" in Westchester County, New York 10am-3pm Monday, May 24 Street fair in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania media market, 10am-2:30pm Tuesday, May 25 Celebration and Awards Ceremony in Washington, DC with key government officials, 10am-2pm We invite you to enter the all-new 2004 Tour de Sol! The Tour de Sol, America's longest running event of its kind, is all-new this year! Held May 21-25, the Tour will kick off in Westchester County - one of the most auto-oriented and affluent suburbs of New York City - with a three-day weekend "green car show and more." During this event auto, bike and bus manufacturers will showcase, and offer for sale, their wares to the general public and the press. In Westchester County, students, individuals and auto makers participating in the Tour de Sol competition will have an opportunity to show off their stuff to the general public and earn points toward the championship, which honors the greenest one-of-a-kind and on-the- market vehicles with quality performance. For the first time ever we will add neighborhood electric vehicle and electric bike competitions! Participants will then rally to a street fair in the Philadelphia media market and conclude with a celebration and awards ceremony Washington, D.C with key government officials. To register ($450 early registration fee or $550 after January 15th) please fill out the registration form. Tour de Sol Scoring and Prizes Prizes: Trophies and over $5,000 given to student and individual entries! Teams will earn points for high vehicle efficiency (fuel economy), low greenhouse gas emissions, reliability, long distance reliability (range), acceleration, and handling. Prizes will be given to the best vehicles with attributes as noted above. "Best in Category" prizes will be awarded. In addition, awards will be given for the vehicle that uses the largest percentage of renewable energy for its fuel (based on US DOE's GREET model), the NESEA Safety award, and the Blue Sky awards for sportsmanship. Entry and Sponsorship information is available at http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/involved/ -- Mike Bianchi
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--- Begin Message ---I've been reading with great interest of many on EVDL going to Exide Orbital XCD batteries. I'm replacing my first pack of Optima YTs and need advice. Which is better, in terms of number of cyles/years of use--Going with XCD which has basically same number of AH as Optima, OR going with a 75AH SLA, such as the PowerSource SLA1175 specs found at http://www.ibsa.com/estore/view_product_detail.asp?mscssid=G70U8RFC6NGA8PW8J4UTXNKE8UHG0TJ3&part_number=SLA1175&category_id=0&find_spec=sla1175&js=1) The SLA is heavier, but much more capacity. I'll be doing much shallower discharges with the 75AH battery, but from what I've been able to learn from those using the XCDs that the cycle life is much better. Price for SLA is only slightly less than XCD. My Honda Del Sol draws about 250kwH per mi, and most of my daily trips are under 10 miles. Thanks for the advice! Chuck ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
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--- Begin Message ---I don't explain them I just pass them along. They mention 4 models. Some may be gas. Lawrence Rhodes... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:48 PM Subject: Re: Chinese BYD EV - 77mph - 250 Mile Range > > Someone in the Chinese press appears to be a little > confused. ALthough the article discusses "electric" > cars, if you read the entire text, it says "1.6 > liter". Giving a displacement is (I doubt) a new term > for the total amount of battery electrolyte! > Either that, or the BYD 316 is currently a > gas-burner, but will go to battery power next year. > Either way, the author is confused. (Or perhaps I > am). Bassoon-meister Rhodes: any illumination would > be greatly appreciated. (;-p > Sincerely, > > --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 13:49:57 -0500 > > From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Chinese BYD EV - 77mph - 250 Mile Range > > > > From: > > > http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200312/05/eng20031205_129770.shtml > > via: Johann Joseph :: goyogi@ yahoo.com > > > > Chinese EV > > 77mph top speed > > 250 mile range > > > > Battery maker plans electric cars > > > > Shenzhen-based top battery maker BYD Co Ltd said it > > has made substantial > > progress in the research of electric cars; and that > > the first 200 units will > > go on trial as taxis in the first quarter of 2004. > > > > "We have made a breakthrough in the quality and > > functions of rechargeable > > lithium-ion batteries for electric cars; a maximum > > speed of 125 > > kilometre/hour could be realized and every recharge > > could support another > > 400-kilometre drive," Chairman Wang Chuanfu said at > > a recent forum. > > > > Co-sponsored by the local government, the > > environmentally-friendly project > > will mark the introduction of BYD's electric cars in > > the local market, to be > > followed by Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Xi'an. > > > > BYD, which aims to become the world's largest maker > > of portable rechargeable > > batteries in the next three years, tapped China's > > fast-growing car market in > > January by acquiring a 77-per-cent stake in a > > State-owned car maker in > > Northwest China's Shaanxi Province for 269 million > > yuan (US$32.41 million). > > > > The company has co-operated with several > > world-renowned companies such as > > Motorola, Delphi and Autoliv to form an > > international research and > > development team for the new BYD auto. > > > > According to Wang, BYD has designed four models, of > > which the 1.6-litre > > BYD316 will make its debut in the first quarter of > > next year. > > > > The acquisition also provided a platform for BYD to > > carry out research into > > developing energy-saving and clean electric cars. > > > > The company has obtained 1,500 mu (100 hectares) in > > Xi'an High-tech > > Industrial Park and plans to invest some 2 billion > > yuan (US$240 million) to > > set up a production plant there in five years, said > > Wang. > > > > Upon completion, the production capacity could reach > > 200,000 units a year, > > or the largest plant for family sedans and electric > > cars in western China. > > > > > ===== > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V > (in progress)! ____ > __/__|__\ __ > =D-------/ - - \ > 'O'-----'O'-' > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids? > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. > http://photos.yahoo.com/ >
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--- Begin Message ---I am still hunting a 30-0-30 decent quality panel mount DC ammeter for my main ABC unit. Getting kinda itchy for it as I just acquired about 600 lbs of Ni-Cads that I need to cycle. I have had no luck finding one for less than 60 bucks + shipping and the lead time is terrible. Anyone have one sitting around? Meanwhile I will keep searching E-bay. Regards, David Chapman.
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--- Begin Message ---I have posted the MB100 cycles test graphic at http://www.manzanitamicro.com/mb100%20at%20125%20cycles.gif It can be reached through http://www.manzanitamicro.com/download.htm at the very bottom of the page. If anyone wants the excel data, contact me off-line. Joe Smalley Rural Kitsap County WA Fiesta 48 volts NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---John Lussmyer wrote: > Single string. The Sparrow should be a bit lighter. 48 x > 5.06lbs = 243 > lbs for LiIon, instead of 13 x 42.9lbs = 558 lbs for YT. > Except that there > is a bunch of BMS parts, and the charger is heavier. So the car will > probably only be about 250 lbs lighter (which, admittedly is > about 16% of > it's GVW.) Hi John, I know I've pointed this out before and you've chosen to proceed, fully aware of the dangers. That's your choice and I respect it. In fact, I'm really looking forward to your discoveries about LiIon and BMS. For the benefit of those who missed the earlier discussion, a Sparrow is a rather special case as EVs go. Usually we want to minimize weight as much as possible. The Sparrow, however, is very tall, has a very short wheelbase and is very narrow for a three wheeler. Center of gravity placement is extremely critical to stability in a three wheeler. The Sparrow's light weight and very compact dimensions make it very sensitive to changes in cg placement. In original form it actually has commendably high skidpad performance, around .9 g. Unfortunately it has been verified repeatedly that when the limit is exceeded the Sparrow tips over rather than spinning out. Cars just don't do that these days. This means you can literally lay it on its side with no more effort than snapping the steering wheel too hard (as you might do during evasive maneuvers) or cornering just a little too fast. Sparrows also seem to bias the rear brake too heavily, causing tail slides and effectively making you "corner" when you had no intention of doing so. Ed Ang's wife had a tipover that may have been caused by this tendency. So stability-wise, a Sparrow is marginal at best. It gets all the way up to marginal stability *because* of how much it weighs and where that weight is centered. Now John is removing around 16% of the vehicle's weight, but the reduction in stability will be greater. That's because *all* of the weight reduction is from exactly where the weight is needed most. Keep in mind that with full size four wheel EVs you can make very significant changes in weight distribution just by moving a few batteries around. John is completely removing 250 lbs. from a smaller, lighter, far more sensitive car. My advice to Sparrow owners is "Don't try this at home." John, your Sparrow has already been on its side once, and you took a while to heal up. Please be careful when testing your LiIon conversion. Also please report on any changes in handling. If your LiIon conversion is a success in terms of range and speed, PLEASE get hard data on the effect on stability before recommending it to other Sparrow owners. Subjective, everyday experience is not enough. Stability only comes into play under extreme conditions, where most drivers rarely venture. Get real numbers by comparing to an original Sparrow, out at the limits of adhesion. Converting a Sparrow to LiIon amounts to a *major* change in its chassis dynamics, and not in a good way. Only full disclosure will do. We want viable electric vehicles, not electric hockey pucks. Please stay safe. We need you for more BMS development. :-) Chris
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--- Begin Message ---Roland, Thanks for the quite detailed info. I've been talking to the construction workers, and they've pointed out a pole with a camera that someone examined with a hoist. It has two monstrous tubes running up the side, to a box on top, which is connected to the camera with two similarly monstrous cables. I assume the tubes caryy the parking lot 277V, and the box on top has the transformer and/or rewired circuit breakers. In this case, I'll be trying to connect to either the 277V at ground level, or the 120 at the top of the pole, giving me a distance much less than 40 feet to run. I'm thinking of getting a waterproof box, attached directly to the pole. I'd like to provide 120V and 240V charging, at up to 40A, but if we have to connect to the 120V, everything will be ruled by the breaker on top of the pole. What's the use of having 240V 15A, instead of 120V 15A? If he can hook everything up to the 277V wires, I'd could provide a 240V 50A breaker with a 240V/40A GFI dual outlet, along with dual 120V outlets. I'm becoming more and more convinced that the parking lot power is 480Y/277. This is a large facility, with some serious power requirements, and I don't see any power company poles or wires. I'm betting we get a 480Y/277 feed, and distribute it throughout the facility ourselves. Which implies you can create residential power (120/240 or 208/120) from 480Y/277. Is it just a matter of swapping wires around, or is a transformer involved? Thanks, Judebert still EVirgin, but gaining experience > If the wire is a 3 wire, one hot (line 1) , one neutral and > one ground, you > can convert it from 120 volts to 240 volts back at the > circuit breaker > panel. > > A 240 volt line only requires two hot lines or L1 and L2 and > a ground, which > is still 3 wires. > > In converting the 120 volt line, Remove the white wire, > (neutral wire) and > wrap black tape on it all the way up to the conduit entrys. > > In the circuit breaker panel, add another 1 pole breaker next to the > existing 1 pole breaker feeding the existing line. Or you > could install a > new 2 pole 240 vac 20 amp circuit breaker and install your > black (L1) and > Black tape (L2) to this 2 pole breaker. > > The only problem you will have, that this voltage will be 208 volts. > Actually it may be tap up higher to 215 to 218 to allow for > the voltage drop > for its load its serving. > > At your charging station, You then install a weather proof > power box with > hinge cover, which has one 15 or 20 amp 2 pole circuit > breaker that feeds a > 15 or 20 amp 240 volt 3 wire recepticle ( 2 lines and one ground.) > > The power box circuit breaker or the recepticle is a ground > fault type. > > If you want 2 recepticles, than you must add another > recepticle to this box > which must come off the same Circuit Breaker. > > It is preferred to have this charging station circuit breaker > ampere rating > set at 15 amps. If you have a fault, than the 15 amp will > trip before the > 20 amp trip back at the service panel. > > If you are charging one EV, you can charge up to a maximum of > 12 amps or for > two EV's than it would be about 6 amps each.
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--- Begin Message --- David Chapman wrote:
I am still hunting a 30-0-30 decent quality panel mount DC ammeter for my main ABC unit. Getting kinda itchy for it as I just acquired about 600 lbs of Ni-Cads that I need to cycle. I have had no luck finding one for less than 60 bucks + shipping and the lead time is terrible. Anyone have one sitting around? Meanwhile I will keep searching E-bay. Regards, David Chapman.
Why not use a shunt resistor and a mV meter? Or an Allegro SCA-050 (free samples) and a 0-12 volt meter? (6v = 0 amps)
-- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/
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--- Begin Message --- Would not be easy to add weight in the right places to improve stability? He could use some scrap lead strategically placed or casted. IIRC, John's original problem was insufficient range with Optimas. At the cost of a little less acceleration, adding weight back to spec might enhance safety.
Mike Hoskinson
Chris Tromley wrote: ...snip...
Converting a Sparrow to LiIon amounts to a *major* change in its chassis dynamics, and not in a good way. Only full disclosure will do. We want viable electric vehicles, not electric hockey pucks.
Please stay safe. We need you for more BMS development. :-)
Chris
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--- Begin Message -------- Original Message ----- From: "Paul G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:21 PM Subject: Re: another question about the Prestolite MTC-4001 > Ryan wrote: > >Can anyone tell me on a Prestolite MTC-4001 why S1 and A1 are > >connected and S2 and A2 are ground and power? Other schematics I've > >seen for other motors have it the other way around. > > > >Should the motor be forced-air ventilated, or does that depend on > >the application? > > I'll let others tackle the other questions except to say that the use > of Peltiers requires redesigning the heating/cooling system. Auto > designs don't naturally provide a place for the other side of the > junctions (where the pumped heat would go, or the cold side if using > them for heating). In addition auto heater design is usually for air > to blow through a rather thin heater core or condenser, not flowing > over a finned block. Actually, the technique I used was to use the old A/C core, running antifreeze through it and then through a number of aluminum blocks connected to peltier devices with heatsinks on the other side, and spray-foam insulation. This seems to work okay, but it was at the time very difficult to build a heat-transfer arrangement for 12 peltiers (you need a lot of them, because they don't move much power) that didn't leak like a seive. If I had it to do over, knowing what I know now, I would just use a freon cycle. The peltiers aren't that much more efficient, and keeping them in their 'sweet spot' requires a willingness to sacrafice energy transfer capability when cooling (i.e. you might only be able to get 700 or 800W of transfer out of a 1500W array). On the other hand, they're wonderful heaters. But I suspect a freon heat pump is a better solution overall, because it works over a much larger tempurature difference between the sides without limiting efficiency or power output. Peltier devices are considerably more efficient when there is zero tempurature difference between the sides, but that's seldom true in a heating/cooling scenereo. I think they're probably better suited for keeping silicon cool. ;-) S.
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--- Begin Message ---Hello Anthony, It may be possible you have a 3 phases and a neutral at the transformer. Are lights in the parking lot are 480/277 volts 4 wire. The 277 volts is a neutral reading to any one of the 480 volt phases. You should read 480 phase to phase and 277 volts phase to neutral. We normally use a transformer that will step down the 480 volts (phase to phase) to 120/240 volts for some 120 volts light we was using. It is possible that the existing transformer has a (if there is one) has a center tap on it. Then you can take off a phase and the center tap for 240 volts. If you do this than you must divide the kva rating of transformer by one-half. If there is no transformer or transformer tap, you could add a weatherproof dry type transformer with a rating of 5 kva (about 5000 watts). This would be 5000/240 v = 20.8 amps. Some transformers type can take a overcurrent up to 250 percent for a short time. The other problem you may have, is that a central photo control that controls the lights to a central contactor may be used. This means you will have only power when the lights come on. If there is power to the pole at all times, and a photo control at the light is used, than you can make it work. The lighting load and the battery charger load, may trip the circuit breaker at the panel. When I done my EV Charging Station, the transformer was a 480/240 primary and a 240/120 secondary. I could tap off the primary side from a 480 phase to the center tap which was not being used to get 240 volts. In this way, I was not overloading the secondary winding. Remember when the ampere on 240 volts is 20 amps, this will read 10 amps on the 480 volts side. So check to see if the circuit breaker is large enough. Roland ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony, Jude J (N-SAIC)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:45 AM Subject: RE: Charging hardware advice (was 220, 221,...whatever it takes) > Roland, > > Thanks for the quite detailed info. I've been talking to the construction > workers, and they've pointed out a pole with a camera that someone > examined with a hoist. It has two monstrous tubes running up the side, to > a box on top, which is connected to the camera with two similarly > monstrous cables. > > I assume the tubes caryy the parking lot 277V, and the box on top has the > transformer and/or rewired circuit breakers. In this case, I'll be trying > to connect to either the 277V at ground level, or the 120 at the top of > the pole, giving me a distance much less than 40 feet to run. > > I'm thinking of getting a waterproof box, attached directly to the pole. > I'd like to provide 120V and 240V charging, at up to 40A, but if we have > to connect to the 120V, everything will be ruled by the breaker on top of > the pole. What's the use of having 240V 15A, instead of 120V 15A? > > If he can hook everything up to the 277V wires, I'd could provide a 240V > 50A breaker with a 240V/40A GFI dual outlet, along with dual 120V outlets. > > I'm becoming more and more convinced that the parking lot power is > 480Y/277. This is a large facility, with some serious power requirements, > and I don't see any power company poles or wires. I'm betting we get a > 480Y/277 feed, and distribute it throughout the facility ourselves. > > Which implies you can create residential power (120/240 or 208/120) from > 480Y/277. Is it just a matter of swapping wires around, or is a > transformer involved? > > Thanks, > Judebert > still EVirgin, but gaining experience > > > If the wire is a 3 wire, one hot (line 1) , one neutral and > > one ground, you > > can convert it from 120 volts to 240 volts back at the > > circuit breaker > > panel. > > > > A 240 volt line only requires two hot lines or L1 and L2 and > > a ground, which > > is still 3 wires. > > > > In converting the 120 volt line, Remove the white wire, > > (neutral wire) and > > wrap black tape on it all the way up to the conduit entrys. > > > > In the circuit breaker panel, add another 1 pole breaker next to the > > existing 1 pole breaker feeding the existing line. Or you > > could install a > > new 2 pole 240 vac 20 amp circuit breaker and install your > > black (L1) and > > Black tape (L2) to this 2 pole breaker. > > > > The only problem you will have, that this voltage will be 208 volts. > > Actually it may be tap up higher to 215 to 218 to allow for > > the voltage drop > > for its load its serving. > > > > At your charging station, You then install a weather proof > > power box with > > hinge cover, which has one 15 or 20 amp 2 pole circuit > > breaker that feeds a > > 15 or 20 amp 240 volt 3 wire recepticle ( 2 lines and one ground.) > > > > The power box circuit breaker or the recepticle is a ground > > fault type. > > > > If you want 2 recepticles, than you must add another > > recepticle to this box > > which must come off the same Circuit Breaker. > > > > It is preferred to have this charging station circuit breaker > > ampere rating > > set at 15 amps. If you have a fault, than the 15 amp will > > trip before the > > 20 amp trip back at the service panel. > > > > If you are charging one EV, you can charge up to a maximum of > > 12 amps or for > > two EV's than it would be about 6 amps each. > >
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--- Begin Message ---Chris Zach wrote: > > Took the Prizm out in the snow this evening. One thing I am always > impressed with in this car is the way it handles in snow. Very sure, > very stable. > > That said, I have a question about driving an AC system in snow. The car > has a lot of torque, and is very nice for creeping around on hills that > are snow packed without slipping. However this does load up the motor, > and when the wheels break loose you can *smell* the rubber within a few > seconds. > > How cautious does one have to be with the wheels breaking loose? I'm > thinking the car pulls, the wheels spin, it digs in and the car then > lurches. All within a second or so. Will this damage an AC motor? How > about if I had a brushed DC motor? > > Just curious for snow driving tips. > > Chris I will not damage your motor. To avoid sudden break loose and RPM increase, program your inverter to increase the motor current ramp time. -- Victor '91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---Mark Fowler wrote: > > Hi all, > > Quick question. > > What would be the more appropriate fire extinguisher for Thunder Sky > li-ion batteries? > > I'm just thinking about a little extinguisher for in the car that is > most appropriate for an emergency where the batteries are > smoking/burning. > > I've read the translated safety info from TS where they short-circuit, > crush, shoot and immerse the batts in water, which basically says they > will stand up to a lot of physical abuse, but have also heard many > horror stories about mobile phone and laptop computer li-ion batts > exploding or going up in flames. > > Should I be more concerned about the dangers surrounding the melting of > insulation from pack voltage cables? > > Is a standard powder type B:E extinguisher a good start? > Is there something more appropriate? > > Mark Mark, I won't tell you that fire extinguisher is useless for TS cells (it is useful for a car in general), but no one yet managed to ignite them - as you've read you have to try hard shorting them on purpose and wait to watch the show. What you hear about LiIon cell phone batteries does not apply to Cr-F-Li TS cells which do not contain Lithium in metal form. -- Victor '91 ACRX - something different
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