Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Mon, 08 Dec 2003 19:08:57 -0800
EV Digest 3209
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) BMS in ACRX (Re: Slow...in my Sparrow)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) WaveCrest hosts EVA/DC Party - you're invited
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Update from "Suck Amps EV Racing"
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: 11 inch motor
by "Crack Monkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: hybrid car feasibility
by David Bettencourt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) New hardware available
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Fire extinguisher for li-ion batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Getting 6 Optimas in a Lectra.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fire extinguisher for li-ion batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Car & Driver says people don't want BEV
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Charging hardware advice (was 220, 221,...whatever it takes)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New hardware available
by Kim Rose <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Car & Driver says people don't want BEV
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: LiIon Sparrow stability
by William Glickman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New hardware available
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: axle strength (Re: conversion donor brainstorming)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: WaveCrest hosts EVA/DC Party - you're invited
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Car & Driver says people don't want BEV
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Do mice eat wires?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: LiIon Sparrow stability
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fire extinguisher for li-ion batteries
by "David McAlister" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: LiIon Sparrow stability
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Ammeter needed
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) BRUSA charger and pulse charging
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---"John G. Lussmyer" wrote: > > Okay, some people asked for pictures of my progress. > http://www.casadelgato.com/EVBMS/Installing.html ... > As you can see, there is a LOT of wiring for the BMS units. I'm probably > going to re-do all of it so that I have bundles of wires from the cells to > the reg units. All those loose random length wires are a chaotic mess to > work with. Wow. I thought we live in wireless world :-) Actually, as long as it works and you know which wire is which, I don's see a major problem. Just crimp reliably. Speaking of BMS, here is my current setup. NO WIRES was the goal. http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/bms_overall_side.jpg Read in detail here: http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/bms.htm To be fair, John's BMS does more than mine now. But this part: http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/bms_module1.jpg will do everything and still have only single daisy chained pair of wires connected cell to cell. I believe installing BMS right on the cells is the best way, and it won't increase the height by more than 0.5 inches. Keep it up John, we sort of making history by doing all this! :-) -- Victor '91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---EVA/DC is very much looking forward to our visit this Tuesday evening, 12/09, 7 pm, to WaveCrest Labs in Dulles, VA -- which will also serve as our December holiday meeting. EVA member Wallace Rumbarger has already had a "sneak peak" behind the closed doors of this advanced motor company, and reports back, "You've gotta see some of these toys!" ;-) In fact, everyone at WaveCrest is in a holiday spirit, including VP of Product Engineering *Mike Fritz* -- who last spoke to EVA/DC members less than a year ago -- and Sales Coordinator *Shelli Yesenko,* who brought us that amazing $2,250 NiMH powered E-bike that we test drove at our September Tysons Corner EVA meeting. In addition to catering this holiday EVent for us with "light fare," they have promised us a special quantity discount on their high tech E-bikes. Santa, are you listening?! ;-) (No obligation, of course!) We will also have our traditional EVA/DC Champagne Toast to the New Year (with both the real grape and nonalcoholic sparkling cider) as part of a brief but interesting EVA/DC meeting,. A highlight for us will be an update on the new WaveCrest *wheel hub motor drive EV* prototype roadster, just unveiled at EVS 20. Although the car will not be with us, Joanne Woestman, PhD, Director of Systems Engineering, will speak about the car and WaveCrest's advanced battery technology. **Important: If we have not yet heard from you, we must have your *confirmation* for this free EVent no later than 1:30 p.m. Tuesday, 12/09. Also, to meet WaveCrest security requirements, we must have the names of any guests that you plan to bring and your business/work affiliations. For the E-bike test drives, you will be asked to sign a liability waiver (a copy is attached.) Prior to the lab tour, you will be asked to sign a *nondisclosure agreement* which will be provided -- the standard form which says, "Look, but don't tell!" RSVP to Dave Goldstein at [EMAIL PROTECTED] We look forward to seeing you! Fortunately, the weather will cooperate, and we expect Tuesday to be one of the mildest evenings this week. For more information on WaveCrest Labs, see: www.wavecrestlabs.com For the news release on the new WaveCrest EV: www.wavecrestlabs.com/news/PR/pr111403.html For the EV World: "Inside WaveCrest Labs" article: http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=525 *************************************************************** DIRECTIONS: We are at 45600 Terminal Drive, Dulles VA 20166. >From the Beltway, take the Dulles Toll Road, Rt. 267, towards Dulles Airport. Exit 28 North. Right on Rt. 606. Left on Shaw. Right on Terminal Drive. The Building is on the LEFT. The entire building belongs to WaveCrest. WaveCrest Telephone: (703) 435-7102 X172 Maps and other directions on the EVA/DC website http://www.evadc.org/meeting.html ************************************************************ Regards and Happy Holidays, Dave Goldstein President, EVA/DC Tel: (301) 602-4892 Charlie Garlow, Program Chairman Chip Gribben, Webmaster, http://www.evadc.org NEDRA Power of DC Racing Chairman President, ScooterWerks Scooter Repair Dave Peaslee Treasurer (retired) Leroy Hall, Secretary Jerry Asher Education Chairman EAA "3rd EVer" Chairman ---
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--- Begin Message ---Mighty neat stuff! Does SCCA allow vans? I'm pretty sure they are banned in my local club. What about chopping the top a bit for higher top speed? (As if you don't have enough to do already...) --- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We now have the front motor installed with the Quaife posi unit > installed in > the 1991 VW Carrado transaxle and a lightened racing flywheel from > Autotech > www.autotech.com with a Centerforce www.centrforce.com 228 mm > racing clutch > and pressure plate. This feeds the 1997 VW Passat hubs with discs. > These > hubs are supported by custom H&R coil over shocks www.hrsprings.com > which > have small springs. H&R is located here in Western Washington in > Bellingham > and they hand delivered the shocks. I took the driver, John, for a > ride > he'll never forget in our shop golf cart. On one corner the left > wheels came > off the ground about a foot. It goes 0 to 50 mph real quick. we run > 120 > volts on a stock 36 volt motor through a high speed gear set. The > small > spring diameter struts allow the custom made 11" by 17" aluminum > Trilogy III > rims by Budnik Wheels www.budnik.com to have a 5.5" back spacing so > the > twelve inch wide 315/35 X 17 Nitto Extreme Drag Radials won't stick > out past > the body more than two or three inches. Can you say "roller-skate" > :-) The > rear aluminum box has been welded up. Two 8" Sparrow motors are > getting > mounted on either side. They each drive two Goodyear Eagle > herringbone style > belts on the inner side of the box to a hub that has an outer 100 > mm > modified VW axle drive flange. The axles to be custom made of heat > treated > 4340 to adapt to the 1992 Subaru Legacy hubs with brake rotors. > Casey, our > FX guy and fabricator, has almost finished the 6 point roll cage. > Roll bars > are required by the NHRA for cars that do 11.99 seconds or quicker. > I like > to be not only optimistic but also safe. The rear aluminum box also > bolts to > the rear roll bar struts as do the upper shock towers. This will > give us the > needed stiffness for SCCA autocross events. The cage will also > allow us to > run at the Bonneville Salt Flats at some future date if they ever > decide to > make street classes for electric cars. Right now you have to > compete against > streamliners and I'll tell you this postal van definitely does not > have a > low coefficient of drag. Well, maybe compared to a 737 hanger door. > David > Cloud got a cameo appearance on Friday when he drove down from > Woodinville > to deliver some orangeboard. An extremely light and strong > composite board > used for the floors of Boeing airplanes. We like to use it for > battery boxes > as it is not conductive and lightweight. I gave him a new 24 volt > 1.6 kw > Perm Motor from Germany www.perm-motor.de to test in an electrathon > to > determine if we wish to carry them. They are designed exactly like > a Lynch. > They also cost much less than the Lynch but more than the Eteks. > They also > make a 7.22 kw, 24 to 72 volt version. Also appearing this week in > cameo > spots will be our EV Listers Otmar "Zilla" Ebenhoech, Rich "Madman" > Rudman > and Paul "Neon" Gooch. Crunch time is here. We have to finish this > vehicle > this week. Next week it goes to the paint shop in Casey's BMW > repair shop in > Shelton for the silver with electric blue metalflake paint. It's > going to be > a very insane week with this many amped out ampheads in one room. > More to > follow. > > Roderick > "Suck Amps EV Racing" > ===== __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
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--- Begin Message --- does anyone have some specs on the new 11 inch Advanced DC motor?
thanks
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message --- BORTEL wrote:
Aloha All: I remember that system, but in a different car. I remember the car looking like an old MG-TD, but with a body build ouut of wood and finished as brightwork on a boat. DBDoes anybody remember the Opal GT hybrid that Popular Mechanics did back in the 60's? It had an aircraft start/gen motor located where the tranny should be and direct coupled to the drive shaft. It also had a little Briggs genset that ran at full capacity all the time charging the batteries. They claim it got some major mpg, but I don't think it had a plug in capability. If anybody has a copy of the arcticle it would be nice to get a scan.
Dan
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--- Begin Message ---All, I have expanded selection of EV AC systems available, please see for motors: http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm for inverter: http://www.metricmind.com/inverter.htm MES-DEA makes many motors with fine size/power increments allowing to pick the right one for your application. Still, I believe Siemens systems are much better value - while systems from both companies are new and comparable, Siemens systems are sold at surplus prices. -- Victor '91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---Hello Victor, A Li-ion cell, whether it be a cell phone battery, an electric bicycle battery, or a electric vehicle battery, does not contain Lithium metal. Thunder-Sky is not special in this regard. The Lithium ions exist first in the cathode and in the electrolyte. On first charge they are intercalated in the carbon anode, as ions. The batteries that have Lithium metal are the primary Lithium cells, and the new (not yet commercialized) Lithium metal-polymer cells that have solid electrolyte to try to prevent internal shorting problems seen with early 90's Lithium rechargeable cells. Lithium may plate out during cycling of a Li-ion cell, especially at high cycle count. It is one of the reasons for capacity loss. I'd be surprised if it did not do likewise in the Thunder-Sky cell, at least to some degree. Perhaps you could ask Thunder-Sky to disassemble a cycled cell and look for plated Lithium (shiny brown to gold coloured coating found on the anode and/or separator, place a couple drops of water on it if you are unsure what it is, it should bubble if Lithium). If any Lithium is plated then you've got Lithium metal in your Li-ion cell. However, you do not need Lithium metal to have a thermal event that can lead to a fire. Are you suggesting a Thunder-Sky cell cannot burn as easily as a typical Li-ion cell? If so, please provide the safety test results to confirm this. A typical Li-ion cell will not ignite if short circuited, if overcharged or if overheated to 150°C for 10 minutes (at temperature). Check to see the UL safety tests required for typical Li-ion cells, safety standard UL1642. On the whole Thunder-Sky cells cannot meet these test requirements. I'm not saying they should have it, mind you, but to state they are safer than typical cell phone Li-ion batteries is wrong. In an e-mail to Marl I suggested the following: "Some people recommend a class D extinguisher, which is really for metal fires. So it may work but it may not be the best thing for Li-ion fires. For a large Li-ion fire, such as would result in a car using a large bank of Thunder-Sky cells, you really don't have many options. You cannot use water as this will sometimes accelerate the fire, will help to spread it around, and will increase the formation of hydrofluoric smoke. Also, a CO2 extinguisher is not effective. I would suggest having a class D extinguisher and a big bag of sand (40 lb or more). I don't think you need to worry about opening up the bag. Just throw the whole bag on top of the burning cells. The bag will burn and the sand will flow around the cells, smothering and cooling them, hopefully enough to save the entire vehicle from burning. You might also check the yahoo group for solar cars, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Solar-Raycing/ This issue has come up in that group a few times in the past couple years." Any other practical suggestions? David S. David Lalonde / [EMAIL PROTECTED] Liion Power Products @ http://www.liionpower.com "Get the Lead out! Get Liion Power!" Li-ion & NiMH batteries & chargers for electric cycles & more! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liion_power_products/ > ----- Message from Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Mon, 08 > Dec 2003 13:07:41 -0800 ----- > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Fire extinguisher for li-ion batteries > > Mark, > > I won't tell you that fire extinguisher is useless for TS cells > (it is useful for a car in general), but no one yet managed to ignite > them - as you've read you have to try hard shorting them on purpose > and wait to watch the show. > > What you hear about LiIon cell phone batteries does not > apply to Cr-F-Li TS cells which do not contain Lithium in metal form. > -- > Victor > '91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---14" front to back x 18" high(sloping up to 21") and a foot wide. That is the Lectra battery compartment. There is a bit of wiggle room. The terminals can stick out a bit. Possibly four could be on their ends facing out with two more on their sides facing out on top of the lower batteries. Seems to me 6 could fit where only 4 were before. This would give 72v instead of 48v. Can the Optimas be stacked with out damage? Anybody done this? Lawrence Rhodes......
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--- Begin Message ---[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Hello Victor, ... > > Are you suggesting a Thunder-Sky cell cannot burn as easily as a typical > Li-ion cell? If so, please provide the safety test results to confirm > this. A typical Li-ion cell will not ignite if short circuited, if > overcharged or if overheated to 150°C for 10 minutes (at temperature). > Check to see the UL safety tests required for typical Li-ion cells, safety > standard UL1642. On the whole Thunder-Sky cells cannot meet these test > requirements. I'm not saying they should have it, mind you, but to state > they are safer than typical cell phone Li-ion batteries is wrong. ... > > Any other practical suggestions? > > David David, thanks for tech details. Yes I do have safety tests report, just not posted on the web. I will upload it and provide the link to it. I cannot tell you if TS cells can or cannot burn as easily as typical LiIon cell - I haven't seen any burning. How easily it is burn once ignited, and how easily it is to ignite it - are two very different things. Of course TS cell contains far more active material and will burn with more damage around than AA size LiIon cell. But it is very hard to get it ignited to begin with. Remember, TS cells have safety pressure relieve valve - something no commercial consumer cells have. When the battery is shorted (about the only condition which may make it too hot and get it in flames) first internal pressure increases and at some point valve opens. Usually (*usually*, according to their tests) the battery will mostly be exhausted by the time the pressure and the temp are high enough to ignite the cell. I'm no LiIon expert as you and cannot argue your points - I know these cells were designed for EV use (unlike 16850 or other consumer types technically *useable* to propel an EV but this does not make them *EV batteries*), and safe operation in typical for EV environment was the primary concern. Part of the reason the cells have relatively high internal resistance is that special inhibitor is added to slow down chemical reaction; this makes the cell very safe. Without it the cells can be easily made far more powerful, but would be indeed unstable. Solar team LiIon battery trouble is a bad example - if you use zillion AA batteries because don't have any better ones - naturally it is an accident waiting to happen. To make a good reliable and safe EV you've got to use EV components, not components *useable in an EV* as most tinkerers do. -- Victor '91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---David Roden wrote: > > On 5 Dec 2003 at 22:45, Tom Messick wrote: > > > > Battery electric cars are simply not going to happen for a very > > > sensible reason: Customers don't want them. > > May I rephrase that a bit? > > "Battery electric cars are simply not going to happen for a very simple > reason: Automakers don't want their customers to want them." > I have to say a bit here on this thread. There is a new book out there Titled "Power to the people". the autor's name is way beyond my meger spelling skills. But this book was very highly recomened in the DEC '03 Book reviews in Scientific American. I got it and Read it. AS should everyone of us seriously working on changing the way The US of A gets around. His main points is we have to reduce the use of fossil carbon. OK if we buy that too much CO2 is a bad thing. But the pianfull thing was HE tried to give a BEV a good chace, and rented on in LA for some really important buisness meetings. And spend a good part of his time looking for charge ports and getting towed back in. When a dyed in the Wool EcoProfit can't get a EV to work for him, then we really have some issues to solve. The reason the motor heads won't go for a EV is simple, What they have had access to are low powered over priced poorly supported excuses. And come on folks there are only a few Evs on this planet that have booth power and range. The general Motor head wants his power and reliablitiy, and 200 to 400 miles a tankfull range. Until we can do that, even in the one off range and racer world, Lets face it we are building toys. A good portion of the world is flat turned off by the "failure of the electric vehicle" in California. We can thank GM for thier haphazzard installations of thier charge ports, Free is nice but so is long term suport and flexability. So After seeing the "EV1 as the Car that could". GM just really made our lives harder. Now we have to build acceptable EVs all over again , to a even higher standard. By over selling what a Ev can do, now the General public won't listen until we have 200 mile per charge and 200 Kw drives. And lets all remember that we WANT to plug it in, at home, never having to fill it up with fossil carbon paid for with blood. BEV are coming on harder, with better batteries, and better charging systems. And the World thinks H2 is the next answer, Well with fuel cells, we still get a electric drive train. My hunch is the advaced battery will get here just about the same time as a small affordable Pem Stack will. The two will go hand in hand and give us the flexability to jump the gap. Then with time the battery will get better, and there will be no need for liquid or gasous fuels at all. Better faster chargers, are also the solution for alot of the current proplems. I am certainly working hard on that right now. -- Rich Rudman Manzanita Micro www.manzanitamicro.com 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---Chris Tromley wrote: > > > Hi Anthony, > > I'm an electrical idiot myself, so verify anything I say here. If > you're using a PFC-20 and the "208/277" you refer to is single phase, > the PFC-20 will be happy as a clam and you'll get a nice fast charge. > > You are correct to provide 120 VAC in any general-use EV charging > station, but you're also correct in assuming it's not very satisfactory > for charging. The ideal situation would be to bring both the "208/277" > and 120 VAC to the charging station (assuming most 240 VAC chargers can > use "208/277"). An RV-style 14-50 outlet box will house both, but local > codes might require an Avcon in an application that is primarily for EV > charging. > > Chris Just to make it clear PFC20,30 and 50s are NOT certified to 277 VAC. DON'T go there!! I need to find the next higher voltage grade 15 volt supply Universal input switcher, Then we can go there. The last time I checked the 277 VAC power supplies where MUCH larger in volume. Making them impractical for the current sheet metal that our charger are Skinned in. Sorry. -- Rich Rudman Manzanita Micro www.manzanitamicro.com 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---The editor needs a paper tiger to smash each month in his opener. BEVs make a convenient target while there is petrol available. FOr the foreseeable future, we're a bit screwed. The Caspian sea is opening up, and Russia is non-OPECker. Iraq is pumping, albeit intermittently, another OPECker. So gas prices will fall for at least 3-7 years, if I may be so bold as to venture a guess. But enter China with a billion+ people, all wanting to drive. Anyone who has been to Mexico can tell you that it will be used fossil-fuel cars; perhaps with a heavy hand of government, some BEV in Beijing, due to air quality probs. But in the long-haul, we're posed to make a killing, folks. Hang in there! --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > David Roden wrote: > > > > On 5 Dec 2003 at 22:45, Tom Messick wrote: > > > > > > Battery electric cars are simply not going to > happen for a very > > > > sensible reason: Customers don't want them. > > > > May I rephrase that a bit? > > > > "Battery electric cars are simply not going to > happen for a very simple > > reason: Automakers don't want their customers to > want them." > > > > > I have to say a bit here on this thread. > There is a new book out there Titled "Power to the > people". the > autor's name is way beyond my meger spelling skills. > But this book was > very highly recomened in the DEC '03 Book reviews in > Scientific > American. I got it and Read it. AS should everyone > of us seriously > working on changing the way The US of A gets around. > His main points is > we have to reduce the use of fossil carbon. OK if we > buy that too much > CO2 is a bad thing. > But the pianfull thing was HE tried to give a BEV a > good chace, and > rented on in LA for some really important buisness > meetings. And spend a > good part of his time looking for charge ports and > getting towed back > in. When a dyed in the Wool EcoProfit can't get a EV > to work for him, > then we really have some issues to solve. > The reason the motor heads won't go for a EV is > simple, What they have > had access to are low powered over priced poorly > supported excuses. And > come on folks there are only a few Evs on this > planet that have booth > power and range. > The general Motor head wants his power and > reliablitiy, and 200 to 400 > miles a tankfull range. Until we can do that, even > in the one off range > and racer world, Lets face it we are building toys. > A good portion of the world is flat turned off by > the "failure of the > electric vehicle" in California. We can thank GM for > thier haphazzard > installations of thier charge ports, Free is nice > but so is long term > suport and flexability. So After seeing the "EV1 as > the Car that could". > GM just really made our lives harder. Now we have to > build acceptable > EVs all over again , to a even higher standard. By > over selling what a > Ev can do, now the General public won't listen until > we have 200 mile > per charge and 200 Kw drives. > And lets all remember that we WANT to plug it in, > at home, never having > to fill it up with fossil carbon paid for with > blood. > > BEV are coming on harder, with better batteries, and > better charging > systems. And the World thinks H2 is the next answer, > Well with fuel > cells, we still get a electric drive train. My hunch > is the advaced > battery will get here just about the same time as a > small affordable Pem > Stack will. The two will go hand in hand and give us > the flexability to > jump the gap. Then with time the battery will get > better, and there will > be no need for liquid or gasous fuels at all. > > Better faster chargers, are also the solution for > alot of the current > proplems. I am certainly working hard on that right > now. > > > -- > Rich Rudman > Manzanita Micro > www.manzanitamicro.com > 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266 > ===== '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (in progress)! ____ __/__|__\ __ =D-------/ - - \ 'O'-----'O'-' Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
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--- Begin Message ---How much do Lithion Ion batteries cost to replace the lead acid Sparrow pack ? Who is the manufacture ? What is the amp hr size and voltage per batttery ? Do they need a special charger ? On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 10:37:45 -0700 Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Would not be easy to add weight in the right places to improve > stability? He could use some scrap lead strategically placed or > casted. IIRC, John's original problem was insufficient range > with Optimas. At the cost of a little less acceleration, adding > weight back to spec might enhance safety. > > Mike Hoskinson > > Chris Tromley wrote: > ...snip... > > > > Converting a Sparrow to LiIon amounts to a *major* change in its > chassis > > dynamics, and not in a good way. Only full disclosure will do. > We want > > viable electric vehicles, not electric hockey pucks. > > Please stay safe. We need you for more BMS development. :-) > > Chris ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
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--- Begin Message ---Kim Rose wrote: > do the MES motors at the bottom of the table come with gear reduction and a differential. that would be the hot ticket for a little work van I want to build... Gadget Yes, any motor can come with single reduction gear box. For the conversion this means you don't need to worry about adapter plates, hubs, shaft linkage, etc - all is done for you. Also the donor car does not have to have working transmission. You just hang MES unit in there and connect wheel half shafts to it. Done. Kim, please set your email client to send out ASCII (not HTML) mail. -- Victor '91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---Peri Hartman wrote: > Do you know how to find out the axle strengths (of a Toyota Echo)? The Prius is a lot like the Echo but considerably heavier. Not the same car, but you might find that Prius parts could be used to 'beef up' the Echo's brakes and suspension. -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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--- Begin Message ---I just got a call from a head hunter saying they need some hardware/software engineers. I was very interested but do not want to move to Washington DC area (Dulles, VA). If anybody with qualifications on the list wish to apply I would contact them directly and cut out the head hunter fee. This will give you more barganing power for moving expenses. Rod --- Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > EVA/DC is very much looking forward to our visit > this Tuesday evening, > 12/09, 7 pm, to WaveCrest Labs in Dulles, VA -- > which will also serve as > our December holiday meeting. EVA member Wallace > Rumbarger has already had > a "sneak peak" behind the closed doors of this > advanced motor company, and > reports back, "You've gotta see some of these toys!" > ;-) > > In fact, everyone at WaveCrest is in a holiday > spirit, including VP of > Product Engineering *Mike Fritz* -- who last spoke > to EVA/DC members less > than a year ago -- and Sales Coordinator *Shelli > Yesenko,* who brought us > that amazing $2,250 NiMH powered E-bike that we test > drove at our September > Tysons Corner EVA meeting. In addition to catering > this holiday EVent for > us with "light fare," they have promised us a > special quantity discount on > their high tech E-bikes. Santa, are you listening?! > ;-) (No obligation, > of course!) > > We will also have our traditional EVA/DC Champagne > Toast to the New Year > (with both the real grape and nonalcoholic sparkling > cider) as part of a > brief but interesting EVA/DC meeting,. > > A highlight for us will be an update on the new > WaveCrest *wheel hub motor > drive EV* prototype roadster, just unveiled at EVS > 20. Although the car > will not be with us, Joanne Woestman, PhD, Director > of Systems Engineering, > will speak about the car and WaveCrest's advanced > battery technology. > > **Important: If we have not yet heard from you, we > must have your > *confirmation* for this free EVent no later than > 1:30 p.m. Tuesday, 12/09. > Also, to meet WaveCrest security requirements, we > must have the names of any > guests that you plan to bring and your business/work > affiliations. For the > E-bike test drives, you will be asked to sign a > liability waiver (a copy is > attached.) Prior to the lab tour, you will be asked > to sign a > *nondisclosure agreement* which will be provided -- > the standard form which > says, "Look, but don't tell!" > > RSVP to Dave Goldstein at [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > We look forward to seeing you! Fortunately, the > weather will cooperate, and > we expect Tuesday to be one of the mildest evenings > this week. > > For more information on WaveCrest Labs, see: > www.wavecrestlabs.com > > For the news release on the new WaveCrest EV: > www.wavecrestlabs.com/news/PR/pr111403.html > > For the EV World: "Inside WaveCrest Labs" article: > http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=525 > > *************************************************************** > DIRECTIONS: > > We are at 45600 Terminal Drive, Dulles VA 20166. > > >From the Beltway, take the Dulles Toll Road, > Rt. 267, towards Dulles Airport. > Exit 28 North. > Right on Rt. 606. > Left on Shaw. > Right on Terminal Drive. > The Building is on the LEFT. > The entire building belongs to WaveCrest. > > WaveCrest Telephone: (703) 435-7102 X172 > > Maps and other directions on the EVA/DC website > http://www.evadc.org/meeting.html > > ************************************************************ > > Regards and Happy Holidays, > > Dave Goldstein > President, EVA/DC > Tel: (301) 602-4892 > > Charlie Garlow, > Program Chairman > > Chip Gribben, > Webmaster, http://www.evadc.org > NEDRA Power of DC Racing Chairman > President, ScooterWerks Scooter Repair > > Dave Peaslee > Treasurer (retired) > > Leroy Hall, > Secretary > > Jerry Asher > Education Chairman > EAA "3rd EVer" Chairman > > --- >
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--- Begin Message ------ Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The general Motor head wants his power and > reliablitiy, and 200 to 400 > miles a tankfull range. Until we can do that, even > in the one off range > and racer world, Lets face it we are building toys. But, a very useful toy, I might add. I have put more than 24,500 miles on my Sparrow in the last 3 years. And, the Paseo conversion is going on its 6,000 miles since I got it up in April. They meet our daily commute and errand needs... today! People used to think personal computers are toys too. Eventhough a PC has its limitations, it has become a "toy" that a lot of people could not live without. I wanted an EV ever since I knew there was such a thing. But, battery watering and maintenance put me off until we have advance maintenance-free sealed batteries like the Optima, Exide, and others. With your PFC-series chargers, sealed batteries, and high voltage controllers, my 2 electric cars seem so much more advance compared to older EV conversions. EVs have come a long way. And, I have no doubt that they would be a very important part of the transportation industry in the very near future. And, I have no doubt that they would have today if they were being marketed and designed properly. But, face it, they might never replace ICE or even fuel cell in the future. But, they will be an important part for sure. I have come to realize that nothing is a permanent solution. For example, if we had waited for a car that have SULEV rating, seat belt, air bag, night vision, auto-driver, and other features before we make one, we will never see one. Or, if we had waited for GUI, bigger hard drive, bigger memory, Ethernet, the Internet, or Pentium 9, we would never see a PC. I say keep up the good work, all of us. Most of us are happy with our EVs even with their short range. Some of us are pushing the range envelope by trying new batteries and BMS. Some of us are developing fast charging possibilities. Some of us are building high power controllers. And, slowly but surely, we will get there. Ed Ang __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/
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--- Begin Message ---Here's a reprint of something from the Prius-Technical list. Good advice for EVs, since they tend to last a *long* time and may well be parked in places where mice can get at the wiring. Peter Blackford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Do mice eat wires? As a maker of wire, I guess I'm the most qualified to respond here: PVC insulation (basically all that's used in automobiles due to its low cost) may contain plasticizers which are attractive to rodents. This can happen with virtually any car parked in certain areas. So, what are some of the attractive plasticizers? Try peanut oil, for one... yes, found in some lower-grade PVC's! Also dioctylphthalate (DOP) is frequently used, and while not as aromatic as the peanut oil it still has 'mouse problems' on occasion. If a rodent is hungry enough it will attack ANYTHING it can get it's teeth into (hence occasional damage to any wiring where the population is dense), but usually it will only tackle what smells like food. The Prius is an exception. I've closely examined the Prius wiring (to the extent of acquiring a harness from a total), and most of it uses a trimaletate plasticizer (better grade) which is not a known attractant. In fact, all of the high voltage wiring is very well protected, especially at the terminations which are considerably more expensive than the wire - they even incorporate O-ring seals to exclude all moisture. (oxymoron of the day: 'rodent-proof cable') -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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--- Begin Message --- At 06:34 PM 12/8/2003 -0500, William Glickman stated:How much do Lithion Ion batteries cost to replace the lead acid Sparrow pack ?
A bunch. Around triple the YT cost.
Who is the manufacture ?
ThunderSky
What is the amp hr size and voltage per batttery ?
These are 3.6v (nominal) at 90AH cells. I'm using 48 of them.
Do they need a special charger ?
Yes and No. I'll be using a PFC-20 with my home-built BMS controlling it.
-- John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
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--- Begin Message ---The problem with a class D extinguisher is that is not a general metal fire extinguisher. Each extinguishing agent is for a particular metal. Be sure the class D is rated for lithium and not for magnesium or other flammable metal. David EV wannabe and former firefighter ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Fire extinguisher for li-ion batteries snip > "Some people recommend a class D extinguisher, which is really for metal > fires. So it may work but it may not be the best thing for Li-ion fires. > For a large Li-ion fire, such as would result in a car using a large bank > of Thunder-Sky cells, you really don't have many options. You cannot use > water as this will sometimes accelerate the fire, will help to spread it > around, and will increase the formation of hydrofluoric smoke. Also, a CO2 > extinguisher is not effective. I would suggest having a class D > extinguisher and a big bag of sand (40 lb or more). I don't think you need > to worry about opening up the bag. Just throw the whole bag on top of the > burning cells. The bag will burn and the sand will flow around the cells, > smothering and cooling them, hopefully enough to save the entire vehicle > from burning. more snipping
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--- Begin Message ---John Lussmyer wrote: > >Do they need a special charger ? > > Yes and No. I'll be using a PFC-20 with my home-built BMS > controlling it. Scratch the 'no' part of this response ;^> Like any lithium ion cells they require a battery management system (BMS) to ensure that they are neither over-charged or over-discharged. I do not believe that you can presently buy such a BMS 'off-the-shelf', although several people seem to be quite close to being able to offer hardware that might work (John included, I believe). The ThunderSky cells in particular ~do~ seem to need a special charger in that the latest rumour is that they do not like to be charged with constant current, and so to avoid premature failure you must use a charger that can be programmed or otherwise controlled to continuously vary the charge current throughout the charge. While one could achieve this by diddling the amps knob of a PFCxx charger up and down every few minutes until the end of charge, I expect that sane people would want something a tad more automated. I do not believe that you can presently buy such a controller for a PFCxx charger off-the-shelf, however the Brusa chargers sold by Metric Mind Engineeering can be programmed to deliver a varying current (as Victor at MME uses on his own ThunderSky pack). Cheers, Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---Try Surplus Sales of Nebraska Web Address: www.surplusales.com Phone 1-800-244-4567 They have all kinds of Tri-scale meters with and without shunts. By Simpson, Weston,Triplett and many industrials meters. Roland ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 12:38 AM Subject: Ammeter needed > I am still hunting a 30-0-30 decent quality panel mount DC ammeter for my > main ABC unit. Getting kinda itchy for it as I just acquired about 600 lbs > of Ni-Cads that I need to cycle. I have had no luck finding one for less > than 60 bucks + shipping and the lead time is terrible. Anyone have one > sitting around? Meanwhile I will keep searching E-bay. Regards, David > Chapman. > >
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--- Begin Message ---Roger Stockton wrote: ... > Brusa chargers sold by Metric Mind Engineeering can be programmed to > deliver a varying current (as Victor at MME uses on his own ThunderSky > pack). > > Cheers, > > Roger. To make this clear, no charger will do absolutely everything anyone want. Present NLG5 chargers will not do pulse charge on their own without firmware upgrade - something that can be done if demand is sufficient. But they do come with digital and analog inputs allowing modulating output current, and also the software to avoid fooling the charger into thinking that if the battery current during CV phase drops to some low level, that the battery is full and the charger must quit. If YOU reduce the current to zero because you want pulsing, the current evaluation must be disabled. This makes implementation of pulse or any other unusual profile) charging trivial. You can set the conditions to go to the next stage (or quit) and "AND" and "OR" them any way you want. In my case I use digital input as "compare disable" input and AND it with other conditions. My settings for "quit" conditions are: Current for CV phase less than 900 mA AND digital input is "high" OR time 480 min has elapsed OR any sensor temp is >60'C OR absolute pack voltage exceed 418 VDC So while the output current is reduced by BMS module to 0A, I keep digital input low, so the charger don't evaluate the battery current and so don't quit. The digital input is high (comparison takes place) only when the charger current is not restricted, but I had to make simple circuit to generate this high/low transition. This circuit also modulates charger's output: http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/randomizer.jpg It is just a pulse divider - I take 1 sec clock (charger generated), divide it by 32 and change charging current every 32 sec to different values 4 times; every 128 sec this pattern repeats. -- Victor '91 ACRX - something different
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