Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Sun, 12 Dec 2004 07:26:32 -0800
EV Digest 3954
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: attack on clean-air requirements
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Bill Dube crimper URL
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) The 200sx is alive!!
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Military Lithium and Hub Motors.
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Charging with an Avcon
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: just looking for opinions
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Real or Memorex?, was: re: any dirt on these people?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: EV eff, was, Re: reduce a cars electric-power usage by 70 percent
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV eff (Was: Re: reduce a cars electric-power...)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) One more thought, re: any dirt on these people?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Esarati now a dead issue?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) DUAL-BATTERY TYPE PACK FOR UW EV
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: DUAL-BATTERY TYPE PACK FOR UW EV
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---A grid charger and filling the extra "battery bay" will be great for the Prius. As for the Rav4 EV and other production EV's, I didn't hear a thing about them till they were going, going, gone. Similar to the beginnings of the Hybrids, which were for sale!
If nothing else the whole "Hybrid" phenomenon makes it clear that all those production BEV's should have been universally grid chargable series hybrids to start with. Uhaul could have rented long haul pushers.
I may have crossed the country to pick up an EV and a genset for a 30mpg trip back home where I would then rairly use gassoline again. Even now only three manufacturers make only 5 types of weak hybrids.
None of this "Electric Hybrid Escape, Prius or Insight" nonesense. I quote "The Ford Escape, _Runs on_ Electric Power alone (at certain speeds (added later))". As if they intend for you to think that any "electric vehicle" stuff you may have heard of in the past is now at work for you in the Escape. Not realizing that compaired to even the tamest of EV's, Hybrids aren't as powerfull and can't "Run on" whichever fuel you choose. Be it coal, oil, ng, neuclear, hydro, wind, geo, solar, exercise bikes, voodoo direct photo synthesis.
btw. Hydrogen isn't really a new raw "fuel". ie. oil -> gassoline. So, we're in or will be having energy problems someday, and they are fighting over how best to package the oil, coal, or natural gasses? Essetially they are fighting California to ensure that the power structure intact at this moment stays intact. Cars are a major chunk of American Consumerism, individules capable of choosing where the fuel that powers their lives comes from are bound to mess with things.
L8r Ryan
ps. So why is Honda staying out if it? I guess they are now selling 3 out of the 5 Hybrids on the market. I might even call them the company I wish our domestic guys were more like. Superb crash test facitilities, into all sorts of clean "power equiptment", robotics! Ironic that their Hybrids are the weakest of all. I doubt that even they would be eager to jump into the new electric "Power" paradigm.
Although they would be perfectly suited to the task. Considering their body of engineering work. I'de start out with a super-offroad CRV, a Minivan, and an all aluminum (4 seat Insight/CRX Coope/Wagon thing)
damon henry wrote:This may be true, but Toyota is still the only car company in the world that has managed to get it right with the American hybrid market. The Prius is hot, and let's face it, practically an EV. If there is truly a market for EV's as so many on this list insist, than I would bet that the first real step in that direction will be an aftermarket kit to upgrade the Prius to a grid chargeable hybrid. Develop one of these and try selling it for a couple thousand dollars, and then you will have a feel for how much American's really want to be able to plug in.
As far as I'm concerned the Prius is better for the environment than any EV ever made becasuse people will actually buy and use it. There is no way that American's would have bought Rav4 EV's in the numbers that they are buying the Prius even if Toyota had made them as widely available.
damon
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--- Begin Message ---This part is even more interesting... If someone isn't interested in keeping the discussion limited to just the vehicle, or the well to the wheels, then I think it's only fair to point out that... ... Better to teach a someone to capture their own renewable energy ... than give the them a gallon of gassoline to get down the road. ... After all, They will just be back to pester you for more anyway. or perhaps that's what "They" want?
The best possible route is to invest in sources of power that are long term and renewable. There may be more energy input required versus the instintanious energy output for a hydro-electric dam or wind farms or other solar collectors than an field of oil wells or a coal mine. However for the safety, stability, freedom, and long term energy needs of society renewable is the only way to go.
Imagine that every manufacturing facility had to, Knowing what we know today about various sources, install it's own renewable power. It would surely increase the installation cost of the facility, but is entirely within our capital and capabilities. It would eliminate subsequent power costs for all manufacturing. Zero power cost for producing say, vehicles or batteries or toys. Even if you aren't producing products you are always producing energy that is bound to be consumed by someone else on the grid.
You eventually end up with a world that not only doesn't need, but doesn't have any desire to take part in dirty risky and unnecessary acts like minning or drilling for fossil fuels. Economic strength has always followed the energy supply so by investing in long lasting renewable energy sources, providing more available energy you grow the economy. As it is now we are running severly in the red in multiple areas.
In the end fossil fuels are just stored up solar energy, it's obvious we should learn to better use our "solar manna" daily and directly. Rather than withdrawling from a bank that we can never make deposits to even if we could close our accounts.
L8r Ryan
Lee Dekker wrote:For the ICE you have to start at an oil well and its pumping system. Much of our oil comes from around the world so you need to count in transportation energy use. Next is refining, followed by distribution. Then you have to count in vehicle efficiency to develop the source efficiency for an ICE vehicle.
Or do you start at the mountain where the ore is mined and crushed and then transported
to the place where it is turned into the metals that are used to make the various
machinery needed to drill the oil well in the first place? Gobs of energy used just to
get ready to drill that well and gobs more used to make it productive, assuming it’s not
a dry hole. And then, in some parts of the world more then others, someone needs to spend
a ton more energy protecting this oil well from sabotage. Probably left out a few energy consuming steps here. Hard to really see all the energy we
use.
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--- Begin Message ---Hi Doug and everyone else,
The Bill Dube crimper instructions can be found here:
http://www.haritech.com/crimp.htm
Plan on some more detailed pictures of the construction process on my crimper in the next three or four years :) or sooner hopefully. If you need any specifics, let me know. I just finished all my crimping today. I'm so glad I had the crimper.
-Ryan -- - EV Source - Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices Christmas Discounts throughout the season! E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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--- Begin Message ---<< I did go ahead and visually inspect the brushes, brush leads, and commutator today. I also checked ALL the connections between the A1/A2 lugs, brush leads, brushes, and commutator with an Ohm meter today. I got 00.00 ohms for every test I did, so there seems to be no continuity problems there. >> Don't you need something called a megger for continuity checks?
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--- Begin Message ---Hello Everyone,
After a year of planning, preparing, stealing homework time, and freezing my rear off, I took the 200sx Electric Conversion out for a spin! I'm not a ball-baby, but a few tears of joy were spilt. Wow! Driving an electric is so amazingly cool! It was pretty darn zippy! I was trying to be gentle with things, but the stylus just went crazy dialing in 1000amps on the Palm pilot. That Zilla delivers! I can't imagine what a Z2K would be like.
After the excitement of driving it around and taking neighbors for rides (I live in an apartment complex and all my neighbors have kept tabs on the conversion), the reality of battery management hit. Poor Rich is stuck with all my PFC specific questions.
I'm just soaking it all up. There are lots of things to still be done, but IT DRIVES!!
Thanks so much to *everyone* on this list for all the help, advice, and guidance. There is no way in the world this would have happened if it weren't for all the knowledge and encouragement this list has given me. I hope I can give back some of what I've received.
Thanks again!
Ryan
-- - EV Source - Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices Christmas Discounts throughout the season! E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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--- Begin Message ---Lightning Ryan wrote: >You eventually end up with a world that not only doesn't need, but doesn't >have any desire to take part in dirty risky and unnecessary acts like >minning or drilling for fossil fuels. I don't think we'd get rid of mining and drilling altogether, because petroleum is used in so many other things besides being burned as fuel. What we would accomplish, it seems, is to reduce the mining and drilling to the level of retrieving only enough oil for those other manufacturing processes, thus vastly the number of years that the existing oil is available. Bill Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---Caught this on the Prius list... http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_Shadow,,00.html
The Shadow's diesel generator is a Detroit turbocharged, intercooled 2.5-liter DI-4V inline 4 engine that drives the Shadow with 138 Hp -- as much as your typical Honda Accord or Mazda Miata. Not very impressive until you realize that the Shadow is about 3 times the size of a normal sedan. On top of that, the Shadow uses a series of magnets for propulsion, driven by the main diesel motor. An 110kW Magnet Motor drives four 50kW Magnet Motors mounted on the each of the Shadow's four hubs, which are powered by two SAFT Li-Ion battery packs with a total rated output of 20kW hours and a peak power output of 80kW. The batteries augment the diesel generator for "burst" energy requirements, and are recharged during low demand operations. They can even recuperate energy when breaking.
It's not a Humvee, which they have had a hybrid version of for a few years now. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=hybrid+humvee
Jan5 1998 - http://evworld.com/archives/conferences/evs14/humvee.html 10 MPH faster top end of 80 mph, 0-50 is 7 seconds twice as fast, climbes 60% grades at 17 mph, 2.5 times better, double the fuel economy at 18mpg. Really it was quite a machine.
L8r Ryan
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--- Begin Message ---I got the PFC in and charging, I was pushing 32 amps into my battery pack at work yesterday. Sweet. The charging station talks, when you connect the plug it tells you the time and says charging started. When you hit the stop button it says charge ended, the time, how long the charger was charging and then it tells you the KWH, the problem is the charger is giving me a number like 10,070KWH. Is it supposed to tell you the power consumed during the charge, or is this a cumulative # ow watts the charger has put out? Is there some way to reset this number? One more question about this, I sent off my application to the DMV (California) for a public charging station sticker, can I get ticketed for charging at a public station before I get the sticker? TiM __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---On 6 Dec 2004 at 13:01, brian baumel wrote: > hi all, a friend of mine is considering buying a > citicar. > what should we offer...if its in working condition? or > if the batteries arent working.... In fair running condition, I'd say maybe $2000. A little more with new batteries. About $500 less with worthless batteries. If it needs major mechanical work, offer still less. > also, can these things be made highway legal? They are already. They're not NEVs; they were licensed as regular cars in every state, as far as I know. However, if you took one on the freeway, you'd most likely be stopped by an officer for driving too far under the speed limit. > could we get it up 55-60mph? Yes, with some drivetrain mods, but you wouldn't want to drive it at that speed. You'd be literally taking your life in your hands. C-cars are unstable even at their designed top speed of ~40 mph. To make it safe at highway speeds, you'd need a huge investment of time and effort to improve the suspension and braking. Even then the car would be marginal. C-cars are good introductions to EV use. If your transportation needs support a car with a 30 mile range and driving at 30 mph or so on mostly level roads, they can be very useful (if not very comfortable). But they should not be considered highway vehicles. I owned one for a few years. When I got tired of driving round Robin Hood's barn to avoid getting on the freeway, I briefly considered upgrading it. After looking into what it would take, and realizing what I'd have when I was done, I sold it and bought a converted Honda Civic. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA 1991 Solectria Force 144vac 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute ... where no minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote, where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference ... where no religious body seeks to impose its will ... upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials. -- President John F Kennedy -- W B Yeats = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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--- Begin Message ---<< Global Electric | Solium Power | R-Electric Car Global Electric CorporationE-Cobra The E-Cobra features a unique Lithium Power System that makes it a sustainable zero emission two-wheel vehicle. This sleek, exceptional performance, electric motorcycle is ideal for both the rental market as well as for personal transportation in urban areas. Speed: Up to 60 mph Range: Up to 120 miles Power: 2 kilowatts motor Battery: 28 volts / 56 amps Charge Time: 3+ hours Weight: 185 lbs >> Maybe someone on this list with deep pockets can "buy" an estimated delivery date. 60mph from a 2kw motor, 120mi from 1.5kwh, for what looks like a $400 Sunbird from Pep Boys...I think they purposely priced it at $6K so no-one can get ahold of their demo models (and while we're at it, let's get that hybrid bike from eCycle).
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--- Begin Message ---On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:58:48 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In a car even with a small diesel like a Lupo, > your eff is going to be less than 15%. The energy to overcome rolling resistance for a a 1000 kg car is about 4 kWh/100km, the energy to overcome air drag for the Lupo at 60 mph is about 8 kWh/100km for a total 12 kWh/100km. 3 l diesel have an energy content of about 27 kWh. Die translates to an overall efficiency of 12/27 = 44 %. This is simple physics and far above 15 %. > I'm happy!! ;-) It's not that hard or expensive. > Been there, done that. Some are 98% eff but more > bucks. I cannot believe that. Give me a reference to such a design. How and with what devices have you measured the efficiency? > I'd bet people on this list know more about real > life battery use, charging, eff than Sandia Labs > knows. We have much more experience. But you don't do controlled scientific experiments. > If you have good charging control, lead batts can > get 95% eff for most of their life, more when very > old, 800+ cycles. I would ask the list how many people have really achieved 800+ cylces. As you have mentioned Trojan below, even Trojan doesn't specify so many full cycles for their batteries. > Even better, the numbers of wt-hrs you put in the > batts. Very accurate over time and includes all drag. > Theory, lab is nice, but real world rocks when it > comes to data that counts. You cannot overcome physics, sorry. > That's sad!!!! We have very fast Karman Ghia EV > conversions that do 100wt-hrs/mile. They can't beat > that? The above numbers are for a real drive cycle in traffic. At what total weight and what speed? Remember, to overcome rolling resistance alone for a 2.000 lbs car you need nearly 70 wt-hrs/mile, except you use very small low resistance tyres. BTW, are this 100wh/mile from wall-plug including charging and battery, or are this computed from voltage and current during driving? > Many EV'ers here use renewable electricity, mostly > wind, either making their own or buying it. Are you sure that *many* is true? A poll in the list would be interesting. > And 1/3 > about is non-fossil fuels like hydro, nuke and only 1% > from oil. ... and 56 % from coal and 23 % from natural gas. http://www.nuclearwaste.com/s/usaenergy/ > Buying RE, hydro, nuke or make your own, the net > CO2 is Zero. Beat that. Yes, you *can* do that, but is it really done currently? > Mine's a fair size larger, about the same weight > but faster top speed, acceleration. There is the Twike which uses only about 60 Wh/mile. But all this are no real cars. > Basicly a US gal of diesel will make 10kw-hr of > electricity or 16 shaft hp-hr at wide open throttle. 10 KW is 13,6 hp > 1/2 of the genorators around here in Tampa get 60% > eff as combined turbine-steam. The few modern CCPP for peak load are not that really relevant when most of the base load and medium load power generation comes from coal power plants that are only about 40 % efficient. > There were but they crushed or shipped them. The > EV-1, Rav4-EV, EV+ would easily with 100-160 mile > range and 80mph. You saw the statement from Toyota? Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. We appreciate your interest in the RAV4 Electric Vehicle (EV). We discontinued sales of the RAV4 EV due to low sales levels. As a result, no business case could be made for continuing sales of the RAV4 EV at these volumes. We believe that advances in hybrid technology and other advanced systems have a much greater potential for the environment and Toyota. This means that electric cars are not ready for prime time. They have chances in some niche markets. An of course, they are of interest for hobbiests like you and me, because we can build something cheaply from used parts and costs are not that critical. > There are some great deals on used EV's in Europe. Used EV's that don't have a speed of 60 mph and don't achieve 100 miles with one charge are not that really interesting to me. > You can do that right or wrong. My complete E > drive, charging including new batts was $600. > I've priced out a new one including batts at about > $1700, Euro-1,300 for a production car like mine. Your car probably wouldn't be allowed to run on road here in europe. ;-) > I use batts, Trojan T105's that cost 1/2 the > Optima, about 1,000 cycles life, have 2 times the cap > and need only 8 of them. Trojan specifys 438 LEU's for the T-105. $60/438 = 14 ct/kWh You Trojan tell that 1.000 cycles are no problem. I am sure they would be happy for marketing. ;-) End even if you achieve 1.000 cycles your math is wrong: If we take the 5 h rate of 185 Ah, usable is 80 % of it 148 Ah. Over the lifetime this would be 6 V * 148 Ah * 1000 = 888 kWh. And at $60 per battery about 7 ct/kWh. Your numbers are simply wrong! > If you think EV's are costly losers, why are you on > this list? I don't think they are costly loosers. But I think they aren't ready for primetime because of a lot of factors. This is also the reason why no large car maker has committed to sell electric cars in large quantities, and the small companies are struggling with high costs. And as long as the electric energy comes from the wall plug with the current energy mix the savings on CO2 and other emissions are on average not considerable better than from a comparable modern ICE car. This is important when widespread use starts. Not so for the hobbiests that have access to green energy. Nevertheless the hobbiest like you and others on the list are driving the development forward. Cheers, Emil
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--- Begin Message ---On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:17:14 -0800, Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It would be unfair to compare the efficiency of an ICE at the gas > pump to the efficiency of an EV at the power plant. So you agree that at this point the difference in emissions is not very large, or the EV even has an disadvantage? > Crude oil is not > gasoline or diesel and my EV is fueled by PbO2, Pb, and H2SO4. Yes, the easiest way to get peace of mind is to ignore this all together. ;-) Emil
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--- Begin Message ---On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:47:37 -0800 (PST), Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > For the ICE you have to start at an oil well and its pumping system. > Much of our oil comes from around the world so you need to count in > transportation energy use. Next is refining, followed by > distribution. Then you have to count in vehicle efficiency to develop > the source efficiency for an ICE vehicle. > > Or do you start at the mountain where the ore is mined and crushed and then > transported > to the place where it is turned into the metals that are used to make the > various > machinery needed to drill the oil well in the first place? Gobs of energy > used just to > get ready to drill that well and gobs more used to make it productive, > assuming it’s not > a dry hole. And then, in some parts of the world more then others, someone > needs to spend > a ton more energy protecting this oil well from sabotage. > Probably left out a few energy consuming steps here. Hard to really see all > the energy we > use. Why do you want to make it so complicated? The price we pay all contain the costs of exploration, drilling, transport, refining, distribution, ... If all this would be relevant then wouldn't be the price much higher? Emil
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--- Begin Message ---On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 22:11:59 -0800, Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Imagine that every manufacturing facility had to, Knowing what we > know today about various sources, install it's own renewable power. > It would surely increase the installation cost of the facility, > but is entirely within our capital and capabilities. It would > eliminate subsequent power costs for all manufacturing. Zero > power cost for producing say, vehicles or batteries or toys. > Even if you aren't producing products you are always producing > energy that is bound to be consumed by someone else on the grid. If the manufacturing facility is energy intensive than it would go out of business within short time because most renewable power is currently more expensive than conventional power. The situation would be different if a CO2 tax would be introduced. Then all companies would have to go this route. But even that would be problematic because the whole country wouldn't be able to compete on exports anymore. The products would just be to expensive. Emil
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--- Begin Message ---<< Global Electric | Solium Power | R-Electric Car Global Electric CorporationE-Cobra The E-Cobra features a unique Lithium Power System that makes it a sustainable zero emission two-wheel vehicle. This sleek, exceptional performance, electric motorcycle is ideal for both the rental market as well as for personal transportation in urban areas. Speed: Up to 60 mph Range: Up to 120 miles Power: 2 kilowatts motor Battery: 28 volts / 56 amps Charge Time: 3+ hours Weight: 185 lbs >> How about something sold by a company that has a track record of EV's? This looks like a worthy successor to the EVT168 (and they supply realistic numbers): http://www.evtamerica.com/z20.htm
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--- Begin Message ---Nick, Another easy test is motor circuit continuity to ground. Measure resistance between the motor terminals and the motor case. All should be greater than 1 mega ohm in a clean, dry motor. If this resistance is very low, the motor is either very wet and/or dirty. or the winding is shorted to ground. If the winding is shorted at only one point, motor operation will not be effected by this. If you have multiple shorts, motor current could be bypassing parts of the motor circuit causing some of the weird problems you have described. Either way, single short or multiple shorts, this indicates damaged motor insulation. Mark T.
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--- Begin Message ---Current discussion made me look for previously active links - do these guys have a new site or have they finally admitted defeat and given up "gathering investors"? Latest news in a search tonight came up with a July 2002 deal with Chinese manufacturers.
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--- Begin Message ---Stephen Johnsen wrote: >Hello, I have been quietly monitoring the list for >the last few months. I >am designing a high performance electric car at the >University of >Washington. Major construction will begin in weeks >and so we must decide on >our final components ASAP. Awesome. I proposed a similar idea at my university, and I almost made a presentation to the Formula SAE team until it was discovered that the Dean pulled funding from the SAE department, and that my project idea wouldn't go through given the Dean was going on a major expense cutting rampage, causing the SAE team to have to delay their racecar until they can somehow raise $8k. My idea encompassed a street EV with a roofline only 36 inches from the ground, and the sketches I drew sort of looked like a cross between the Opel Eco Speedster, Minority Report Lexus, and a Shelby Daytona Coupe, and intended to use a mid motor rear drive configuration with no tranny(4:11 rear end), two Zilla 2ks, two WarP 9 motors in a series/parallel configuration, 15 inch rims, 30 Exide Orbitals in a 360V pack for a 100 mile range and ridiculously fast recharge(15-20 minutes), and a carbon fibre body composedof removable panels, so if you got into an accident, it would be a quick snap to fix. Weight would have been around 2,300 pounds. It at least worked on paper, but would have probably run into big problems if I would have been able to get something like it gonig as a project. Feel very fortunate to have this opportunity to build a dream EV. As for myself, I'm going to be building my EV alone, with my own cash, and unfortunately on an already made chassis/body(Triumph Spitfire) since custom building would be too expensive for a college student that doesn't have super rich parents. It won’t have anywhere near the range or performance the idea I wanted to present would have had, but at least 25 miles range and 0-60 ~ 7 seconds should be within my grasp using 20 orbitals and a Zilla 1k with a single 9-inch motor(I might be pleasantly surprised on range if I have good efficiency and low draws, meaning maybe 40 miles? One can hope…). Who knows what I’ll do after my first one though. On the plus side, it will be my car to abuse, harass police with, terrorize the streets with, flip off the SUV occupying my blind spot in(And boy would its blind spot be horrendous with a hard top!), screw with people's minds when I take it to get "emission's-checked", draw large crowds at gas stations as gas prices rise with, scare unsuspecting passengers with, and not property of my University. :-) NiMH batteries are virtually unobtainable for this application. I'm sure you know about Ovonic and what happened with them. Some NiMHs for EV use must exist, however, since there was an electric Lotus Elise made by Zytec that used NiMH cells arranged into modules(It formerly used NiCds). The NiCd version got 0-60 in 6 seconds, topped 90 MPH using a single gear ratio, and did 100-120 miles per charge. Don't know about the NiMH version, as after contacting Zytec about the NiCd version, they told me about the NiMH version, and never gave specifics. My guess is NiMH version got 150 miles range, but it's as good as any, especially not even knowing the pack size. I remember researching prices and finding Li Ion to be significantly cheaper than NiMH, but don't have any specific examples I can cite, nor am I certain those batteries I searched would have been suitable for EV application, although they appeared so(If I could remember them, I'd list them). Hybrid packs could be prone to problems, given differing discharge characteristics, voltage sag, and charging requirements, although it would be possible to do a hybrid pack. I wouldn't want to wade through its complexity though, although a management system for Li Ions is complex enough. One idea that would be promising is taking NiMH packs from junked Priuses(As one person did for a Lotus 7-based kit car, using them solely and no ultracaps or other batteries), and using them to provide peak power, and using perhaps Thundersky Li Ions for range. It might be a bit cheaper than using 18650-size Li Ions and their complex management system, but the T-skies have jumped in price due to inflation here, rising demand for their product, and high oil prices. Ultracaps have been used with some success. Talk to Victor Tikhonov for details. They are pretty pricey though, and you may be better off using a single Li Ion pack. Also, the West Philadelphia High School EV team has built a diesel-electric hybrid K1 Attack kit car, which got its peak power from ultracaps. 0-60 < 4 seconds, < 1800 pund curb weight, and over 50 miles per gallon. Getting ahold of the project leaders may not be such a bad idea. Their website is here: http://www.penn-partners.org/evteam/attack.htm 100 miles range? With good aerodynamics, lead acid batteries can achieve this, and this will keep price down. AC Propulsion's lead acid TZero did 80-100 miles per charge, being its real world 70 MPH range, and Coconni's lead acid CRX could exceed 130 miles per charge cycle range with careful driving. Given AC systems are about 10-15% more efficient than DC ones, achieving similar numbers is not out of the question with a high torque DC motor and a Zilla 2k. Just don't drive like Otmar 100% of the time, and you'll do ok. ;-) How much are you willing to spend or have available to spend? That will be your main constraint. There are three attributes that are paramount to the car you want to make: range, speed, and affordability. Pick two. For $90k+, you could have it all, 250 miles range, 0-60 < 4 seconds, and a top speed in excess of 150 with a transmission, but that isn't very affordable. For $20-25k, you might be able to do 80-100 miles range and 0-60 ~ 6 seconds, top speed > 110, for said 80-100 mile range would require exceptional aerodynamics and use sealed lead acid batteries, and such a great looking price would assume labor and use of machine/auto shop is entirely free. Or you could use Exides instead of Optimas, possibly decrease range(I have been given data that can argue either case), but get 0-60 < 4 seconds since the Exides can push 2000 amps, instead of the Optimas' 1000. To get the most out of those batteries, they'd need to be kept at their optimum temperature and a high voltage pack(300+ volts) would be needed to keep current draw down, otherwise their capacity in real world conditions could drastically drop, with Peukert's effect being the large bulk of that drop in capacity, which makes NiMH and Li Ion that much more appealing(But still doesn't change their price, complexity, and almost unobtainum status). At 60-70 miles per hour, for 100 miles range with lead acid, you'd want your battery current draw under 30 amps. With 25 Optima D750s, this would mean about 12 usable kWh to full discharge, or about 70 miles range with a 170 wh/mile consumption, which would necessitate an overall Cd*A of about 4.5 and sub 2,700 pound curb weight. If your budget is virtually unlimited, have at it with the Li Ions and 200+ mile range. We all know this would be affordable if the parts and car were in mass production. Otherwise, learn your limits, and figure out ways to minimize their impact on the quality of the car you want to build, without breaking the bank. I must say, those sketches of the car drawn look great. I'd like to make a few recommendations to the aesthetics. Change the head lights to a more rounded look. Ever see some of the Ferrari's from the 1960s or perhaps a Lotus 11 or Jaguar E-Type? Round LeMans-style headlights would look awesome on this thing. They also appeared on the Shelby Daytona Coupe you know and love. And the tail lights in the back? Rounded would also fit well. Take a nice good look at the Lotus Elise for a tail light style to get inspiration from. Even if it may be a wagon, it doesn't have to look anything like one like it does now. For an idea of what I'm hinting at, also look at the Lotus Europa, or the Jenson GT. As for the rear end profile, look at the Volvo 3CC concept(http://www.allsportauto.com/english/volvo-3cc.php). Imagine the 3CC rear end profile, Lotus Elise-like tail light arrangement, and Shelby Daytona Coupe headlights and front end. That would look gorgeous, and would have excellent aerodynamics to boot, and would lend itself many differences from Brock’s design, yet also sort of update it in a unique way. Also, covering the rear wheel wells would reduce your drag by about 10%, and with such an exotic configuration with 60s era sport racer look, looking weird, even with covered rear wheel wells, would end up looking good and would command the car immediate attention everywhere it went. Then you could pull into a gas station, pop your hood open, and watch in delight as a confused yet interested crowd forms around the car based on its looks alone, only to be utterly shocked when they see it doesn’t have an 'engine'. Be ready to answer questions! Having looked through some SAE publications at my university, making a car with a < .25 Cd seems very possible with the body style you are looking at. A shame you want such a big car though, as that means big frontal area(Well, I consider 'big' anything over 2,600 pounds and/or more than 48 inches ground to roof!). But then again, most people in this country don't seem to take the impractical sort of small cars too well, as much as I'm personally obsessed with them. Take a look at the Opel Eco Speedster, with a .20 Cd and 15.8 square foot frontal area. Got over 100 miles per gallon on diesel and tops 155 MPH off of only 112 horsepower(And if it weren't governor limited, it would be faster). THAT as an EV could easily exceed 150 miles per charge highway range on 1200 pounds of sealed lead acid batteries and with about a 2,300 pound curb weight(The actual ICE Eco Speedster is about 1,500 pounds). Just another car to look at for inspiration, although it's definitely too small to your liking(Roof is only 37 inches off the ground!). Good luck on your project. I'd have LOVED to have had the opportunity to set up and help make reality a project like this, even if it wouldn't be my car. And if this will be your car? I envy you! Make this thing a monster, and keep it efficient at the same time. Telling people your Corvette killer can kick a Honda Insight's ass well to wheels efficiency and didn't use a drop of gas would be the ultimate in shock value. And think of all the fun to be had at stoplights! If only that egomaniacal kid in a riced-out Civic mommy and daddy bought him, or the trailer-trash in the Trans-Am, or the yuppie in his shiny new M3 had the slightest idea!
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--- Begin Message ---Hi Nick an' All; Check the resistance from the field lugs to ground, like if the fields are grounded to the frame or to themselves. I had a ADC armature coil ground, car would go at 30 volts but no more, drove it home that way. Higher voltages pinned my ampmeter. Had Warfield Electric rewind the armature. that fixed that, still honeymooning, 5 years later. If ya wanna spend the bux for a NEW motor, get a Warp, they are a bit beefier, cheaper, in an EV on road way, bigger brushes, comm, and interconnecters,. It was designed BY listers for on road service, AND Warfield will be with you if ya have any problems. ADC doesn't want to hear about it, if you have problems! Been there, done that! Of course, as Rich sez, don't trash the ADV, it's a good motor, AFTER the internals are streightedned out. Wish ya were right down the road, so you could try MY new 9 in. in the Jeep, see how it goes. Anybody Out There got a motor Nick could bolt in and try? Warfield rewound my motor for about 300 bux! and only a few daze. Shipping and all that was the largest part of the time and 60 bux for shipping to/from CT.These are old prices, though. My two ohms worth Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Troubleshooting the ADC, (was: Advanced DC vs WarP motors) > Nick, Another easy test is motor circuit continuity to ground. Measure > resistance between the motor terminals and the motor case. All should be > greater than 1 mega ohm in a clean, dry motor. If this resistance is very > low, the motor is either very wet and/or dirty. or the winding is shorted to > ground. If the winding is shorted at only one point, motor operation will > not be effected by this. If you have multiple shorts, motor current could > be bypassing parts of the motor circuit causing some of the weird problems > you have described. Either way, single short or multiple shorts, this > indicates damaged motor insulation. Mark T. >
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--- Begin Message --- Well, if you really want to build an EV, transfer to ~100 miles up the road to WWU. They have a nice ID program there as well, and the Vehicle Research Institute. They have built quite a few solar, battery EV, CNG, and hybrid vehicles up there. Not to mention race cars, crash test cars and even sel propelled hot tubs, although the last one was not a sanctioned project, I think.
Based on my experience with student built cars, I would avoid lithium. You probably can't afford it and the fire hazard becomes more of an issue with increasing mass speccific energy density. And student built cars typically do not have the sort of babysitting needed for an EV with a finicky battery.
A hybrid battery pack seems fine on paper. But see above about Lithium.
Ultracaps have been used. Often with a high power DC-DC. But they can be a hassle and probably aren't worth it for the first iteration.
If you can get a nice, robust NiMH battery from a reputable supplier (not Ovonics/Cobasys) like Saft or Gold Peak, then with appropriate safeties, that might be the thing to do. Maybe a University can get a break on the price.
Good luck, and maybe a field trip to Bellingham might be in order.
Seth
On Dec 11, 2004, at 11:22 PM, Mike Chancey wrote:
Hi folks, I am forwarding this message for Stephen, as he is having subscription problems. (He can read, but not post).
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Hello, I have been quietly monitoring the list for the last few months. I am designing a high performance electric car at the University of
Washington. Major construction will begin in weeks and so we must decide on our final components ASAP.
For batteries we were initially thinking large scale lithium ion batteries would be the best. AC Propulsion's Tzero electric car gets
incredible performance using over 6,000 laptop batteries linked together. We want something that is easy to change in and out so large scale batteries seem to make more sense. I suppose a well designed pack or a few packs might be okay too. Currently we have been negotiating with Valence a company out of Texas who makes standard size Lithium Ion batteries using a phosphate based cathode for better safety. Anyway, looking into the matter further it appears that NiCads and NiMH batteries last longer than Lithium based batteries (both shelf life and charge cycles)? I believe NiCads, at least, are also cheaper?
One thought we've had is to make a sort of hybrid-battery system. Use two different types of batteries. One type for acceleration and
another type for longer range and simply cruising. So what if we used a pack of Li-Ion batteries for acceleration and then NiMH or NiCads for cruising? What do you think of this? Also would it be possible for the long-range/cruising pack to also help charge the acceleration pack? The idea being that this coupled with regenerative braking could help keep the depth of discharge of the acceleration pack in the low percentages thereby extending the life of the Li-Ions for example and making them closer to that of the Nickel based Batteries.
What do you think of all this? Do you have any other ideas or advice? What about using Ultracapacitors instead for the acceleration?
Also, where are good places to purchase NiCads or NiMH... and what about Zinc Air batteries? So far they look like they have good energy properties but the ones I've found require mechanical charging (i.e. taking cells out of the pack and then putting new ones in while the old ones are reconditioned in a special device.)
Thank you, please take a look at our website:
http://students.washington.edu/toro66
Regards,
Stephen Johnsen
DISCLAIMER: I am the industrial design student on the team my specific knowledge of batteries and electrical components is not as good as some of our other team members but I think creatively and try and come up with what makes sense. We are designing a car for commuting--but we want it to out accelerate most any other car on the road as well as get a range of at least 100 miles and look good while doing it. This will help it appeal to the masses and make the average person or even the hell bent horsepower nuts (like I used to be) say, "Hmmmm." Any and all information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks
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