EV Digest 6898
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: How the Prius Works
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Aircraft Starter generator
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) (no subject)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: EV achilles' heel
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: EV achilles' heel
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EV achilles' heel
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) (no subject)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
I stand corrected. After looking at the diagrams, its obvious that I was
incorrect about the direct coupling of MG1 and the ICE. They are coupled
through the planetary gearset that effectively makes the system a 3-way
differential.
So this means the ICE can be stopped and MG1 can still rotate. (MG2 is
turning backwards).
The max speed at the wheels is 42 MPH before MG1 is over it's redline, so
this is the max Electric-only speed without turning the ICE.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
MG1 is directly coupled to the ICE. They always run together, and MG1 is
used to start the ICE as well as generate electricity (with MG2) when the
vehicle is not in motion.
For example, If you leave your AC on sitting there, eventually the ICE
will run briefly to recharge the pack.
There are NO clutches whatsoever. The MG1/ICE combo is on one mechanical
"side" of the diff (planetary gearset) and the other "side" is MG2. In
order for the ICE to run without the vehicle moving, MG2 has to run
backwards at the same speed. To make the vehicle move the shuffle power
from the MGs. Imagine slowly "braking" MG2 while the ICE/MG1 is running.
The Braking is not wasted, it is electricity put into the pack. As the
current is ramped up the vehicle begins to roll.
This can also be reversed for "pure electric" mode too. The ICE/MG1 can
stay off, and just MG2 can run, albeit twice as fast, to move the vehicle.
This is why electric only mode is speed limited.
The 4wd version used in the highlander and Lexus SUV simply adds a
separate 3-phase motor at the rear wheels.
It's mechanically elegant and I am very impressed. If any of you on the
list think it's crap, that just shows you aren't much of an engineer.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:06 AM
Subject: RE: How the Prius Works
Phil,
I read the wikipedia article and it still sounds like what the article
Jeff sent the link for. MG1 is the generator hooked to a planetary
gearbox. It sounds like the are now calling the planetary gearbox a
"differential" now instead. The wikipedia and the ecrostech articles
don't show pictures of the mechanicals of the system. Does anyone have
pictures of how MG1 and MG2 connects? Saying that MG1 connects to the
Sun gear doesn't show HOW it connects. Does it have a gear on the
outside that MG1 drives? Does it have clutches like the sun gear of an
automatic have? I like the mention of MG2 connected through the
driveshaft. That makes sense since it is responsible for the torque.
It looks like MG1 could be just chained to the ICE motor and run only
when the motor is running. It would be really nice to see one of these
out of the car so each part could be shown and a more detailed operation
explained. Personnally I think the ecrostech article is much more
informative. The wikipedia article is interesting but as I understand
it wikipedia is not the most reliable source of information since anyone
can edit the data.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of (-Phil-)
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:01
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
I suggest you guys do a modicum of research..... You are incorrect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of the
engine to the wheels.
There is only one electric motor/generator. Actually there's a second
motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT
gears
but it's not a drive motor.
The motor/generator is only there to boost the peak engine power and
allow
the engine to shut off when its high power is not needed and there is
sufficient battery power to meet the driver's demands.
Danny
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
I didn't say it was a series hybrid. I said it was essentially an
electric clutch. isn't it?
I don't think the prius arrangement could be cheaper than a series
layout. I would be interested in hearing the design justification but
doubt it would satisfy
Dan
Danny Miller skrev:
No, it has a mechanical CVT transmission in there. Gears and all.
The
Prius is a parallel hybrid, if the wiring between a generator and
motor
were the only link from engine to wheels then it'd be a series
hybrid.
It's interesting to note that the engineers spent an awful lot of
design
time, expense and weight to make a CVT tranny rather than add a
separate
motor from the generator so they can run at different speeds.
Either
the losses are simply too high or the second motor is more expensive
than the tranny.
The earlier generations of Prius used an electric motor that could
not
produce great acceleration or top speed without the engine. In 2003
the
hatchback had a 50KW motor instead of the earlier 30KW and 33KW
ones.
Danny
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
(-Phil-) wrote:
Just to clarify, the Prius doesn't have a separate CVT. The CVT
*is*
the motor/generators!
By shuffling power between the 2 motor/gens you effectively have a
CVT. It's a totally ingenious system!
aside from the fact that the end result is an expensive ICE car and
not
an EV. it's effectively an electric clutch. the design will not
survive
and should never have been. if one was conspiratorially inclined
(and
one is) one might be suspicious that they intentionally chose a bad
design because it could give the illusion of being environmentally
friendly while still remaining a pure ICE car.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well to was hard to tell .. If you say so I will have to go on that as ..
It was a bit off the wall for me never having spoke to him before .. But I
am cooled down now..
Ill send some and see if it helps.
-------Original Message-------
From: Mike Willmon
Date: 6/14/2007 12:18:48 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Aircraft Starter generator
Hey Phelps, that was the one guy you would really want to answer your
question, although you probably wouldn't know it. And he
Wasn't speaking English, that was jivanese, (that's what DC motorheads speak
after a hard day of wrapping windings). What he meant
Was that its really exciting working on a new conversion, and was making a
funny about it being too overwhelming to operate a
Camera being so excited (he was only speaking from experience of drinking 36
cups of coffee for breakfast and tearing into peoples
Brand new motors ;-) Just send him some pics of the thing, I'll be surprised
if he hasn't seen one.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Phelps
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:11 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Aircraft Starter generator
>
>
> Hey dick did not your mother tell you not to play with strangers and not
to
> piss people off you don't know..
> .. Looks like you need spell check to ..
> If it is that important to you.. I would also guess you don't know
anything
> about the question anyway.. Did it make you feel better to rip my spelling
.
> Is that what it takes to make you feel good .. The fine English .language.
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Jim Husted
> Date: 06/13/07 21:42:03
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Aircraft Starter generator
>
> --- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I see I had a typo.. 400 Amos 30 volts
> ^
> Hey Phelps, looks like two in a row, Getting excited
> Are you, hehehe. No time for email checks, got to go
> Work on the convertion, LMAO. Sorry couldn't resist
> 8^)
>
> How big is this motor? If you want, take some pics
> And send them over to me, and I'll have a look.
> Matter of fact have someone else take the pics cause
> You'll be all excited and jittery and they'll come out
> Blurry 8^P Pics of the brushes and commutator will be
> Helpful.
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________________
> ______
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
Visit
> the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow,
this forum is pretty cool... it's my first forum...
Obviously an newbie... I want to say thanks already for the support of info..
In lieu of the weight of the vehicles.. I may in fact go with the Del Sol as
weight is an issue. I want to make this an efficient vehicles. Also, the wife
hated the Fiero I owned, even though, I've never enjoyed a vehicle as much
since. My thoughts are the Fiero was great at it's weight, but I am imagining
handling issues with 500+ lbs of added weight. Plus it may be easier to obtain
parts for the Del Sol. I am still holding out for Lithium.. but it will have to
be the last component.. at that price I may build the car with a hitch and work
on the components and the engine compartment with lead acid towing in the rear.
Then when I get the $$ saved up make a single full purchase of lithium
batteries. It's going to take me a while just to get the electronics installed
properly. I won't even begin purchasing components till at least Aug next year.
By then cost for Lith should drop 15 to 30% (I hope)
At the cost of Lith.. I could buy a lot of lead acid.
On 13/06/2007, at 3:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You must be referring to Thunder Sky batteries? Has anyone
> actually cycle
> tested these batteries and reported the results? I would not go by
> their
> information posted. I would want to see a test with the C rate
> needed for an EV?
The 160Ah cells I referred to were ThunderSky, yeah, though there are
a few other manufacturers around the same $0.50/Wh price point (e.g
Liteway, Huanyu). All the cheap ones are Chinese of course, which
might be a bit of a concern!
I haven't come across any independent cycle life tests for them yet,
no. Maybe I should set up a test rig doing 1C cycles and see how they
go. Hmm at ~12 cycles per day, it'd 6 months non-stop to reach 2K
cycles! Guess I'd better get started ;)
> The question that should be asked of Dave is how much does he have
> to budget
> for this? Ian Do you have a link for the BMS?
A couple of suitable BMSs:
http://evpower.com.au/-Battery-Management-System-.html
http://metricmind.com/bms.htm
-Ian
> In a message dated 6/13/2007 12:02:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 35 miles is a long commute! My sympathies :)
>
> While I don't disagree with charging at work being a good idea to
> reduce battery requirements, I think you could a 90 mile range with
> about $10K worth of lithium..
>
> Going with ~200 Wh/mile for a small car like a Fiero or Del Sol,
> let's say you need a 20kWh pack.
>
> With lead acid, that'd be something like 25 Trojan T105s, which would
> weigh over 1500 pounds - obviously not feasible in a small sports
> car! And you wouldn't be able to get 200Wh/mile, that's for sure.
>
> With lithiums, as an example you could use 40x 3.2V 160Ah LiFePO4
> cells, which would come in under 500 pounds, and would cost ~US$10700
> including freight. Might not be out of the question.
>
> $30-50K is possibly what it'd cost if you used Valence batteries..
> (But why would you!? ;)
>
> -Ian
>
> On 13/06/2007, at 1:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Hello Dave
>>
>> Your best plan would be to work on your employer to allow charging
>> at work.
>> Your required 35 miles is going to be hard enough to achieve with
>> lead acid.
>> You will have to spend between 30 and 50 thousand for the
>> batteries alone to
>> go 70 to 90 miles. It also sounds like you are going to want AC?
>> You could
>> figure a 10 or 15% deduction when running that. Or as others has
>> posted use a
>> cooler with ice or some other way without adding added drain on
>> the pack.
>>
>> Low cost new technology batteries are not here yet.
>>
>> Don Blazer
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 6/12/2007 4:57:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>> I am looking to build my own EV-Conversion in the next 5 years,
>> but I know
>> very
>> little. I am just getting started. Most people have suggested
>> that my first
>> vehicles be of DC instead of AC in lieu of cost and simplicity.
>>
>> I am going to purchase either a 86 and above Pontiac Fiero or a
>> Honda Del
>> Sol.
>>
>> Both have body styles I like and considerable aerodynamics.
>>
>> This will be a commuter vehicle. I need to get at least 90 miles
>> per charge
>> as
>> my work is 35 miles away. I need to know I can get back and forth
>> on a 80%
>> charge.. ie over time and life of battery I can still drive back
>> and forth
>> to
>> work. I need to be able to hit at least 70 mph Max highway speeds
>> out here
>> (people are crazy) And I have to have air conditioning.. as I live
>> and work
>> in
>> the hot Arizona sun.
>>
>> My question for the day is what is the difference between
>> different types of
>> batteries. And also what is "sag" And how do 12v 18v and 6v bat
>> compare that
>> context.
>>
>> Everyone wants the lighter longerlasting Lith-ion Valance bat's
>> but they are
>> not
>> yet available.... Also, in some of the documentation I believe I
>> read that
>> you
>> can only have so many in series..
>> (U-Charge RT Power System PDF 5th item down on featurs * Series
>> connection
>> up to
>> 4 batteries) If they were available would that be enough???
>>
>> Thanks for any help I will be reading and saving $$ for my
>> components.
>>
>> Dave Wells
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ************************************** See what's free at http://
>> www.aol.com.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's free at http://
> www.aol.com.
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
planet, worm, worm, planet. no biggie :)
little gears we don't need
TrotFox Greyfoot skrev:
Chet,
Yes it could be used for EV's but once you've got two motors in there
anyway why not just link them up normally? There's no reason to have
them turning at different speeds compared to each other.
Dan,
What worm gear? There is no worm gear in the Prius E-CVT.
Trot, the frustrated, fox...
On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
off the top of my head you would need two motors besides the relatively
complicated worm gear in a system that promises to eventually do without
any gears at all.
it's a needless complication
Chet Fields wrote:
> Trying to get back on topic, couldn't a similar design be used to
create a CVT for EV's? Something
> that would allow for torque multiplication at low speeds and yet
low RPMs for high speeds.
>
> It would need 2 motors connected to probably sun and planetary
carrier? Could also work kind of
> like the series/parallel switching. And the controller would have
to be more complicated. Would
> any of the motors need to also run backwards?
>
> Just trying to stimulate some thought. ( I don't want to burn my
neurons on this one alone :-)
>
> Chet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Some have an occasional need and know that renting a car will be the
> most efficient way for their transportation need <snip>
So , we Know, do we?
And we all Agree with you that your assessment on renting or keeping
multiple vehicles around is correct?
I apologize sir, I disagree.
1) does anyone actually have a generator on their vehicle, and know how
loud it is?
or is it all conjecture? "it must be noisy, and I don't like the idea, so
you must be crazy since I'm an environmentalist (and I'm right)..." is
hardly a valid argument.
2) is there any reason you can't voluntarily buy and install a catalytic
converter/quiet exhaust?
3) any reason you couldn't put a chain hoist in your garage (if you have
one) and put it on the back of your truck? (for those of you who have
trucks) - or trailer, if you have a different vehicle?
The entire exhaust on my old geo was $200, including a new catalytic (Yes,
I'm FAR-right-wing, and Yes, I care about the environment - hence the
totally voluntary purchase of a catalytic converter on a vehicle that the
state didn't say I had to replace. I also care about what *terrorists* are
doing with the gas-money I give them). Just because you're an
environmentalist, doesn't mean you have all the answers.
We've all spent way more than that on our EVs, theres no reason you
couldn't tack on a catalytic, if you're concerned about the environment
and noise.
I have a camry. Once my EV is done, I'll drive it maybe once a month.
Since it will be so out of shape, it'll likely spew all kinds of goodies
into the environment, unless I could get rid of it - and use a small, more
easily managed motor, that I could fix and tweak, and improve, and modify
myself........No reason I couldn't actually take it to an inspection
station, and ask them to rate it for me after my tweaks.
If I had a range extender, I could sell the camry (recouping some of the
cost of the conversion of my truck) - and use my EV every day of the year.
A 50KW 9-inch generator, with a 30-hp gasoline generac, is about $2,500 at
Northern Tools (in the US). Moreover, I have a built-in emergency backup
for my house, should the power go out (yes, its really rare, so for me,
not a hefty argument in its favor).
You could get more current out of it if you tweaked the electronics.
As to noise, read #2 Above.
California is actually working to mandate catalytics on small engines I've
heard; perhaps the purchase of a generator from CA would be something that
you could consider.
Renting is problematic, as I don't want to have to deal with the
paperwork, hassle of picking one up - (and how do I get there? and do I
want to leave my precious EV there over the weekend?) every time I go
visit family.
Using the same vehicle all the time, every time, would mean that I am
familiar with the vehicle, and less likely to have an accident while I'm
looking for some lightswitch (who gets familiar with the car before they
start driving it? Should we? Sure. Thats totally besides the point I'd
like to make here. I'd rather drive and smell my own vehicle, rather than
someone elses).
I think too, that putting a range-extender on my truck will cost less,
pollute less, than renting some diesel or poorly maintained u-haul with a
trillion miles on it, and towing my EV to events - never mind the
increased risk and unfamiliarity of towing a vehicle and unfamiliarity
with a larger vehicle (last time I rented a u-haul, I broke the mirror on
the rhs of the vehicle, thanks to small-town mailboxes that were too close
to the road... at least, in my opinion they were).
Moreover, depending on the city (as in Charlotte, NC) - rental taxes are
high...and you already know I hate big government, and those sobs already
steal too much from us.
Either your'e Democrat (Tax and Spend) or you're Republican (Borrow and
Spend) or you're Constitution party (as I am) - and you're not in office.
Tsk.
Finally, there's an Ontario guy who DOUBLED his range using a 5hp honda
motor, and a 7hp baldor motor (as a generator).
He can go ~ 100 miles, rather than 50.
http://www.vehiculevert.org/levehiculevert/index.php?lien=generateur
As to emissions, people carp all day about CO2.
Plants absolutely cannot survive without it, so I'm not sure why its
considered a pollutant (a "pollutant" required for survival? there's a new
one)- yet Al Gore (while flying charter, rather than commercial) says
practically nothing about Methane, which comes out both ends of cows, and
swamps all over.... and is 10 times the greenhouse gas that CO2 is - and
doesn't come out of either cars or generators, nor, as far as I know, can
most plants (or even humans) make any use of it (ahem, unless you *burn*
it.... and make it into ... by comparison, relatively harmless CO2).
Don't give me that "Al's Special" spiel either. Millions of *important*
people all over the world fly commercial, and they make their appointments
on time just fine. He's a hypocrite, just like every other single
politician in office. (and yes, I admit I'm a hypocrite in some areas too.
I try to practice what I preach, but I'm not always successful. Al and
his ilk doesn't even try. Ever see John Edwards' house?
http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/display_exclusive.html?id=3848
).
For those that don't know, I've learned that the North American landmass
is a co2 sink... meaning the trees/plants we have here, suck up more co2
than we produce.
Does that mean I'm going to run out and set fire to my back yard, because
of this?
Of course not....
Ed "Carbon makes the world go 'round, and without it we die" Cooley
I apologize for the rant....
Best Regards to all...
Have a great weekend.
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/14/2007 12:59
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
cc
Subject
RE: EV achilles' heel
Huh?
If you want to prove a point then at least be clear what you
are referring to, as I mentioned a whole list of possible
solutions with associated drawbacks and even mentioned a
common perception problem, so which of those do you think
is "wrong"? And what is it that I should buy?
I am afraid that you do not know me well enough to make
any judgement, unless you do not care about truth.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:54 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
wrong
I don't care to reiterate the obvious for the blind. maybe you'll realize
the truth when you buy one. you'll probably hve forgotten though, maybe
even
think it was your idea to begin with
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> It depends on the situation people are in:
> some have never a need to go more than a few miles, so the EV is their
> only car and does not need range extension.
>
> Some have an occasional need and know that renting a car will be the
> most efficient way for their transportation need and they do not need
> to bother with an unused ICE car during the time in between.
>
> Many others have more than one car, so before each trip they think for
> half a second which car is appropriate.
>
> Very few people use range extension.
> Most times it is a total disappointment, a kludge that takes away from
> the simple and clean EV idea.
> In addition, even thinking about making a genset or something
> comparable get good emissions is a royal pain.
>
> There is very little point if you are interested in saving the
> environment to have an EV that needs its genset a small percentage of
> the time but spews out many times more crud, defeating the whole
> purpose.
>
> I did not even address reliability, NOISE, and other issues.
>
> Not everyone is thinking about it from this perspective and sometimes
> habit and comfort are stronger than dedication as can be witnessed
> when someone needs to mow his lawn.
> Most lawnmowers belch out more during one hour of mowing than the
> modern car does during an entire week of driving (not including CO2).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:07 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: EV achilles' heel
>
> I think everyone can live with the cost of replacing lead acids once
> in a while, and the energy loss in them from common discharge and even
> assuming some heads would pop out of dark odorfilled areas and we
> would fix the electronics cost for conversions we still have the EVs
current achilles'
> heel, the range.
>
> how many have tried using a small combustion engine for range
> extension in EVs? I imagine for instance a turbocharged 250cc
> motorcycle engine or even look into the possibility of using a tesla
> turbine because of its simplicity and potentially very compact size.
> (presumably run very smoothly too)
>
> anyone tried auxiliary combustion? I know JB Straubel did a trailer
> but that was a full size car motor as opposed to a small onboard one.
> is everyone driving pure EV?
>
> Dan
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
sigh. I want a small ice for powering the car in a series layout only
when the battery has run dry.
to be able to extend the range beyond when the batteries are dry
only after it has run as far as it can on the battery capacity
everyday you drive on batteries with no use of the ice but when you have
gone as far as it can go with the stored energy it starts up the
icepowered generator and carries on until the next suitable recharging.
(-Phil-) wrote:
So you are the same guy claiming the Prius is a dumb implementation,
yet you want to do essentially the same thing, albeit less efficiently?
Seriously, I recommend you take an introductory physics course at your
local college.
-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Frederiksen"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
I'm not talking about just serving needs. I'm talking about the most
efficient way to get to an EV society. and the range extender is that
until EE storage can be done right or something even better gets out.
for the rare occasions the ice kicks in it could well run on biofuel
Mark Karatovic wrote:
Hi all,
Would hate to take away the environmental aspect of the EV as the
pure no emissions car but it depends on your needs really, and that is
the "perspective" that everyone is thinking of. That is their own
perspective. If an EV by itself doesn't suit your needs isn't a
compromise better than nothing? Renting a car while it sounds good, is
not really an option lets say if you want to go on a holiday for a
week and want a car at your destination while your there. Well it is,
but I would rather not. A hybrid? Well I personally think the Prius is
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
how much did your longest ranging ev cost?
jukka wrote:
Right. I choose the car according the need. If I need 200 miles I take
the 200 mile car from the garage. That's as easy as that.
Just out of curiosity I put 300 kg of lead acids as extra weight to
trailer and drove 200 km with one charge. Now If I would have had
there Lions too and connected to the drivesystem, I would have
achieved 400-450 km range with the Berlingo.
I do not know about you but after that kind of trip I really need to
get some rest and sleep. That's nearly 6 hours of continous driving.
That is already extreme.
If the EV should do the 500 km every freaking day it has to be
specially designed for the job.
Clearly the case is that if you need ICE range and instant fueling
forget EVs for now. It just isn't the right tool for the job.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
you are just being silly :) and wrong
rather than a range extender you would rather just drive your ev?? :
) why didn't I think of that. that's brilliant
jukka wrote:
Com'on man. I'd rather swallow razor blades than destroy the whole
EV concept with smelly ICE.
I rather drive my EVs all around and then rent a Ferrari for a week
with the saved money every year.
I'll be the guy passing with Italian horses while you murder the
small ice with overrevs.. eh eh ehee hhee.. °°°! (Am I out of line?
hope so :)
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
no. small onboard ice gen for use only when batteries are flat.
jukka wrote:
How about a small trailer with even a bit of room for ballast ?
I was plannig to make a trailer with Lions under the floor. And a
nice small cover for the extra luggage.
The trailer would be an independent unit with charger and etc. You
drive with it a distance (say 80 miles) then you leave it for
charging some where and continue without it or you can just keep
dragging it along untile reached the destiation. You could still
use the oh-so-old lead in the car for comfort.
A small trailer could sell for 5000-8000 USD. Or how about If few
would be made and rented for testing ? Or a EV chapter aquire one
and folks can use it when needed. 1 week annually each member.
-Jukka
Michael Wendell kirjoitti:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the
innefficiencies of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this
information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ed,
No need to apologize. you are entitled to your own
opinion, even when it may be misguided.
I am afraid I did not express myself clearly enough.
My intention was to indicate that different things
work for different folks.
Some have only one car, an EV, even though they have
an occasional need to go further than the range of it.
Those people may have done the math and come to the
conclusion that for their occasional need, the most
cost effective way is to rent a car, so they know that
they do not need a second car and deal with the hassle
of a gas car that is seldom used - it will eat space,
break down more often than a regular driven car, cost
money, may even get towed as "abandoned", and so on.
(Just quoting from actual stories here on the list!)
Of course there are alternatives. Public transport
does a good job in some areas, the EV is perfect to
drive to a station and take a bus or train from there,
most people in the US live in EV range from an airport.
If you think that a genset in your EV is a great idea,
why do you not go ahead, build one and report here if
you like it as a solution?
That way we can all learn.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 1:59 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel
> Some have an occasional need and know that renting a car will be the
> most efficient way for their transportation need <snip>
So , we Know, do we?
And we all Agree with you that your assessment on renting or keeping
multiple vehicles around is correct?
I apologize sir, I disagree.
1) does anyone actually have a generator on their vehicle, and know how loud
it is?
or is it all conjecture? "it must be noisy, and I don't like the idea, so
you must be crazy since I'm an environmentalist (and I'm right)..." is
hardly a valid argument.
2) is there any reason you can't voluntarily buy and install a catalytic
converter/quiet exhaust?
3) any reason you couldn't put a chain hoist in your garage (if you have
one) and put it on the back of your truck? (for those of you who have
trucks) - or trailer, if you have a different vehicle?
The entire exhaust on my old geo was $200, including a new catalytic (Yes,
I'm FAR-right-wing, and Yes, I care about the environment - hence the
totally voluntary purchase of a catalytic converter on a vehicle that the
state didn't say I had to replace. I also care about what *terrorists* are
doing with the gas-money I give them). Just because you're an
environmentalist, doesn't mean you have all the answers.
We've all spent way more than that on our EVs, theres no reason you couldn't
tack on a catalytic, if you're concerned about the environment and noise.
I have a camry. Once my EV is done, I'll drive it maybe once a month.
Since it will be so out of shape, it'll likely spew all kinds of goodies
into the environment, unless I could get rid of it - and use a small, more
easily managed motor, that I could fix and tweak, and improve, and modify
myself........No reason I couldn't actually take it to an inspection
station, and ask them to rate it for me after my tweaks.
If I had a range extender, I could sell the camry (recouping some of the
cost of the conversion of my truck) - and use my EV every day of the year.
A 50KW 9-inch generator, with a 30-hp gasoline generac, is about $2,500 at
Northern Tools (in the US). Moreover, I have a built-in emergency backup for
my house, should the power go out (yes, its really rare, so for me, not a
hefty argument in its favor).
You could get more current out of it if you tweaked the electronics.
As to noise, read #2 Above.
California is actually working to mandate catalytics on small engines I've
heard; perhaps the purchase of a generator from CA would be something that
you could consider.
Renting is problematic, as I don't want to have to deal with the paperwork,
hassle of picking one up - (and how do I get there? and do I want to leave
my precious EV there over the weekend?) every time I go visit family.
Using the same vehicle all the time, every time, would mean that I am
familiar with the vehicle, and less likely to have an accident while I'm
looking for some lightswitch (who gets familiar with the car before they
start driving it? Should we? Sure. Thats totally besides the point I'd like
to make here. I'd rather drive and smell my own vehicle, rather than someone
elses).
I think too, that putting a range-extender on my truck will cost less,
pollute less, than renting some diesel or poorly maintained u-haul with a
trillion miles on it, and towing my EV to events - never mind the increased
risk and unfamiliarity of towing a vehicle and unfamiliarity with a larger
vehicle (last time I rented a u-haul, I broke the mirror on the rhs of the
vehicle, thanks to small-town mailboxes that were too close to the road...
at least, in my opinion they were).
Moreover, depending on the city (as in Charlotte, NC) - rental taxes are
high...and you already know I hate big government, and those sobs already
steal too much from us.
Either your'e Democrat (Tax and Spend) or you're Republican (Borrow and
Spend) or you're Constitution party (as I am) - and you're not in office.
Tsk.
Finally, there's an Ontario guy who DOUBLED his range using a 5hp honda
motor, and a 7hp baldor motor (as a generator).
He can go ~ 100 miles, rather than 50.
http://www.vehiculevert.org/levehiculevert/index.php?lien=generateur
As to emissions, people carp all day about CO2.
Plants absolutely cannot survive without it, so I'm not sure why its
considered a pollutant (a "pollutant" required for survival? there's a new
one)- yet Al Gore (while flying charter, rather than commercial) says
practically nothing about Methane, which comes out both ends of cows, and
swamps all over.... and is 10 times the greenhouse gas that CO2 is - and
doesn't come out of either cars or generators, nor, as far as I know, can
most plants (or even humans) make any use of it (ahem, unless you *burn*
it.... and make it into ... by comparison, relatively harmless CO2).
Don't give me that "Al's Special" spiel either. Millions of *important*
people all over the world fly commercial, and they make their appointments
on time just fine. He's a hypocrite, just like every other single politician
in office. (and yes, I admit I'm a hypocrite in some areas too.
I try to practice what I preach, but I'm not always successful. Al and his
ilk doesn't even try. Ever see John Edwards' house?
http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/display_exclusive.html?id=3848
).
For those that don't know, I've learned that the North American landmass is
a co2 sink... meaning the trees/plants we have here, suck up more co2 than
we produce.
Does that mean I'm going to run out and set fire to my back yard, because of
this?
Of course not....
Ed "Carbon makes the world go 'round, and without it we die" Cooley
I apologize for the rant....
Best Regards to all...
Have a great weekend.
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/14/2007 12:59
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
cc
Subject
RE: EV achilles' heel
Huh?
If you want to prove a point then at least be clear what you
are referring to, as I mentioned a whole list of possible
solutions with associated drawbacks and even mentioned a
common perception problem, so which of those do you think
is "wrong"? And what is it that I should buy?
I am afraid that you do not know me well enough to make
any judgement, unless you do not care about truth.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:54 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel
wrong
I don't care to reiterate the obvious for the blind. maybe you'll realize
the truth when you buy one. you'll probably hve forgotten though, maybe
even
think it was your idea to begin with
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> It depends on the situation people are in:
> some have never a need to go more than a few miles, so the EV is their
> only car and does not need range extension.
>
> Some have an occasional need and know that renting a car will be the
> most efficient way for their transportation need and they do not need
> to bother with an unused ICE car during the time in between.
>
> Many others have more than one car, so before each trip they think for
> half a second which car is appropriate.
>
> Very few people use range extension.
> Most times it is a total disappointment, a kludge that takes away from
> the simple and clean EV idea.
> In addition, even thinking about making a genset or something
> comparable get good emissions is a royal pain.
>
> There is very little point if you are interested in saving the
> environment to have an EV that needs its genset a small percentage of
> the time but spews out many times more crud, defeating the whole
> purpose.
>
> I did not even address reliability, NOISE, and other issues.
>
> Not everyone is thinking about it from this perspective and sometimes
> habit and comfort are stronger than dedication as can be witnessed
> when someone needs to mow his lawn.
> Most lawnmowers belch out more during one hour of mowing than the
> modern car does during an entire week of driving (not including CO2).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:07 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: EV achilles' heel
>
> I think everyone can live with the cost of replacing lead acids once
> in a while, and the energy loss in them from common discharge and even
> assuming some heads would pop out of dark odorfilled areas and we
> would fix the electronics cost for conversions we still have the EVs
current achilles'
> heel, the range.
>
> how many have tried using a small combustion engine for range
> extension in EVs? I imagine for instance a turbocharged 250cc
> motorcycle engine or even look into the possibility of using a tesla
> turbine because of its simplicity and potentially very compact size.
> (presumably run very smoothly too)
>
> anyone tried auxiliary combustion? I know JB Straubel did a trailer
> but that was a full size car motor as opposed to a small onboard one.
> is everyone driving pure EV?
>
> Dan
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter,
I will be purchasing the "Convert It" book. Of all the publications recommended
to me that one comes up almost every time. I did not know there was a trading
post for EV's and I will be checking into that. Starting from scratch is a
tremendous project. And there may be a great deal of learning i can do with a
used EV to help me decide what i do and don't like. I will defiantly check out
the post. I am still hanging on to the whole lithium thing(I may not be
thinking realistically), but I want to keep the weight down as much as
possible. I may have to start with lead acid and put money aside till i can
purchase all Lith's at once. I'm afraid if I buy one at a time I may end up
with some duds. At those prices i can't afford duds..
also,, if anyone is in the State of Arizona near the Phoenix area.. I'd love to
get together and chat.... I promise to keep reading & writing to the List.. not
trying to take info away from the site..
David out
_______________________________________
Hello David,
There are a number of sites that have advice. One of them is
http://www.rtpnet.org/~teaa. There are buttons off to the left that you
can click to help you make a decision on whether to convert or buy.
There are lists of other sites that can that provide similar help, if
not better help. There are links from the above site to some of these
other sites.
In 5 years, there **should** be many commercial PHEVs and EVs out from
Toyota, GM, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Miles Automotive, Tesla, etc. The
Lithium Ion batteries should be cheaper if Peak Oil affects do not
induce energy inflation (Ref: http://www.energybulletin.net/5080.html).
The Chevy volt should be out in 2010 but there are many on this list who
are skeptical of this ala their EV1 experiences, You may want to see if
you can pick up a copy of "Who Killed the Electric Car?" to understand
their skepticism.
Many of the gurus here will recommend that you start off with lead
acid. If you kill a lead acid battery, that will set your pride back
about $100. Lithium ion i$ another matter although Tesla claims that
they can manufacture their 200 mile pack for $25K. Their pack is
similar to the Tzero pack and that little car has been drive over 300
miles on a charge at highway speeds. You might be able to put a Lithium
Ion based pack together a 100 mile pack for around $9K to $12K depending
upon your expertise. If Bill Dube is right (http://www.killacycle.com)
and someone can get 10,000 cycles out of the A123 batteries, that's a
1,000,000 mile pack at roughly $0.01/mile (plus financial charges).
Here is an interesting site: http://www.solarvan.co.uk where the fellow
has a Ltihium Ion based vehicle.
To start with, I would even go so far as to recommend that you go to the
EV Tradin' Post and buy a used EV there, fix it up and get it on the
road. You will save yourself time and money. A local EV club can help
you get it on the road and keep it there. I know our club has done that
with several of our members. If you want to get together with like
minded people in your area, I would get up with Jerry Asher at EVJerry
-AT- usa.net. Jerry has worked tirelessly to help bring 4 EV
Associations into being in the Carolinas. He's a good man. Once you
have the concepts and practices of Battery Management down, then go to
Lithium.
The "Bible" for converting has been "Convert It" by Michael Brown.
There are many examples of conversions that have been done at the EV
Album. The owners often have their contact information listed there and
are ready to answer your questions.
From a personal experience, converting an EV is daunting. Having help
is a blessing and there is a lot of good help here.
Good luck!!
Peter
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am looking to build my own EV-Conversion in the next 5 years, but I know
very
> little. I am just getting started. Most people have suggested that my first
> vehicles be of DC instead of AC in lieu of cost and simplicity.
>
> I am going to purchase either a 86 and above Pontiac Fiero or a Honda Del Sol.
>
> Both have body styles I like and considerable aerodynamics.
>
> This will be a commuter vehicle. I need to get at least 90 miles per charge
as
> my work is 35 miles away. I need to know I can get back and forth on a 80%
> charge.. ie over time and life of battery I can still drive back and forth to
> work. I need to be able to hit at least 70 mph Max highway speeds out here
> (people are crazy) And I have to have air conditioning.. as I live and work in
> the hot Arizona sun.
>
> My question for the day is what is the difference between different types of
> batteries. And also what is "sag" And how do 12v 18v and 6v bat compare that
> context.
>
> Everyone wants the lighter longerlasting Lith-ion Valance bat's but they are
not
> yet available.... Also, in some of the documentation I believe I read that
you
> can only have so many in series..
> (U-Charge RT Power System PDF 5th item down on featurs * Series connection up
to
> 4 batteries) If they were available would that be enough???
>
> Thanks for any help I will be reading and saving $$ for my components.
>
> Dave Wells
>
>
>
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