EV Digest 6899
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Turbine Range Extender
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
by "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New Zillch Controller
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: full size truck conversion
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Dumb question time
by David Wilker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
by "Sam Maynard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Dumb question time
by "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: EV achilles' heel
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: How the Prius Works
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: How the Prius Works
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: How the Prius Works
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: High voltage? was Anyone heard of these Li-Ion batteries - or using
them?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Oh No... Another Newbie...
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Dumb question time
by David Wilker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: TS cell exchange... WAS:Re: New Subscriber
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Turbine Range Extender
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I would imagine the price might be less amazing but sure. do you have a
picture of the turbine itself? the size
power wise it should be quite fitting. what is the size of the generator
attached to it?
Dan
(-Phil-) wrote:
Not too long ago I had the pleasure to work on a Capstone C-30 Turbine
generator. Amazing piece of technology. As soon as I got my hands on
it, I felt the urge to cram it in an EV.
It's extraordinarily clean and very small and light with only one
moving part, and even that one part is suspended with low friction air
bearings.
It would be the ideal range-extender. I hatched this plan in my head
to make a removable sled that could be loaded in for long trips. I
also toyed with the idea of taking a large chunk of the pack out when
this is done.
In the end, this would only make sense if I was limited to one
vehicle, although it sure would be neat!
-Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVDL traffic at record levels.
Wow! the info be flyin'!
Gotta give some credit to our new troll though.
Can anyone claim ten posts per hour yet?
Betcha that our new troll be workin' on it.
Got a big spoon to stir the s%$t with? Bring it on! We don't turn anyone
away here at the EVDL! We actually welcome folks like Dan here.
Doubt it?
Is he still here?
Enuff said.
_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows
Live Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LOL, thanks Chip. I really liked the DNFTT picture from that thread. I
just saved it along side my "bunny with a pancake on it's head".
> You mean like this one Dan?
>
> http://www.peakoilstore.com/forum/index.php/topic,435.0.html
>
> Everyone should check that one out. That's the type of forum Dan is
> talking about. They loved him over there.
>
> But Dan, thanks for the suggestion but we'll stick with what we have
> here.
>
> Chip
>
> At 06:55 AM 6/14/2007, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
>
> stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum an someone set
> that up?
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- Begin Message ---
Ah. Planetary gear. Please note that I am a technician. When you
tell me the worm gear is not needed I go looking for a worm gear which
is very certainly not a planetary gear. Mucho differences there and I
would not have known that you were talking about the one while using
the other's name.
Like asking me to replace the 3-legged diode on a PCB.
Trot, the technically-minded, fox...
On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
planet, worm, worm, planet. no biggie :)
little gears we don't need
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Forgive a newbie who's still wrapping his head around EV concepts. My
expertise is ICE automotive repair, maintanence, and customization, but I've
recently developed a great deal of interest in EVs. Over the years I've
grown increasingly disgusted by all things petrol and am looking for a new
direction for my company.
After comparing the (disappointing) products available in the two-wheeled EV
world (I have to include Electric Motorsports in this assessment) with the
capabilities of killacycle and others on the drag circuit, I have to ask if
it's reasonable to pursue development of a scooter/motorcycle capable of 70+
mph, 100+ mile range, 0-60 mph under 5 seconds, and a weight of under 450
lbs. Armor Electric, http://www.armorelectric.com/home.htm, is moving in the
right direction, but I want to see better yet.
With M1 batteries (or similar) these seem like acceptable performance goals
until I consider the difficulty of mass-producing a reliable American-build
product for under $9,000 retail (above which I believe consumer interest
will taper off abruptly). What component set would be required to meet those
benchmarks? Or do they not currently exist?
At this point I have visions of a 72-120V system with three packs of A123
Systems AHR32157M1HD (specs TBD), Zilla Z1K-LV and HB2, and a single pancake
motor (source undecided) bolted to a CVT with belt final drive, although I'm
intrigued by the possibility of a Brusa motor/controller combo. And what's
the deal with Raser Technologies? Why no commercially available
motor/controller package if the technology is so fantastic?
Thoughts?
Lon Hull
Owner - Superstructure Industries LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]@comcast.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: New Zillch Controller
Eeeek! Joe you responded (seriously) to my satire about Ot's "Troll."
But the response and the information you presented is great.
On a personal level I can relate to "cheaply" made controllers. All from
China, BTW. I have a business called, "ElectroScooterWorks". This is
actually no joke. I repair electric scooters and bikes. Mostly Razors,
Curries, Blade-Zs etc for kids and I repair electric bikes and scooters
for people who don't have a car and use them as their prime source of
transportation. I've repaired well over 250 scooters now and about 1/3 of
the work is controller replacement. There are literally hundreds of
different 24-36 volt controllers made out there for electric scooters.
And it doesn't take much for them to fry. Alot of it is cheap, Chinese
made stuff. They retail for $35.00 to $75.00 but my suppliers sell them
to me for as cheap as $15.00. It's not unusual for me to replace a dead
controller or throttle with another dead one.
An educated EVer, building a highway-capable EV, would be wise to stay
away from cheap knock offs and from folks who don't know what they are
doing. But I have to give the Chinese credit. They can pretty much take
anything and mass produce it on a huge scale at cheap prices.
Fortunately, I haven't seen any cheap high voltage controllers coming out
of China yet.
Just an FYI, they import up to 20 container loads of cheap electric
scooters on our shores every day. We call them 30-30 scooters. They last
30 days or 30 hours before they break.
On the downside it hurts EVs. Because the junk made out there damages the
cause we are trying to promote.
The electric scooter market has already been damaged. There is just so
much low-quality stuff made out there. I work on a ton of scooters that
don't even have a name. It's all generic Chinese junk. I hope this type
of business operation doesn't filter on up to road-going EVs. It's a big
concern for me and should be a concern for the EV movement. And a reason
people need to respect the intellectual property rights of guys like
Otmar and Rich. God forbid Zilla knock- offs from the Far East begin
invading our shores. So I hope we just don't get Zillched.
Fortunately, we already have high quality EVs and EV components made here
in the USA thanks to Ot, Rich and other EV pioneers. The standard of
quality, ingenuity and craftsmanship has already been set.
Chip Gribben
aka "Dan Crankenstien"
http://www.electroscooterworks.com
On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:48 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: June 14, 2007 4:59:30 AM EDT
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: New Zillch Controller
Dan;
I think you are onto something big here.
Yes, a feature packed, reliable and powerful controller does cost a lot.
You can reduce the costs by:
1. Dropping features,
2. Using fewer and cheaper components,
3. Derating the capabilities, and
4. Not offering any warrantee or installation support.
To build a cheap controller, you do not want to build anything that
looks
like the Zilla. There are way too many parts, too many assembly
operations,
too many features that need to be tested, too many interfaces, too much
data
coming out, and too much instruction needed to allow someone to install
it
in their vehicle.
To build a cheap controller, you need to use as few parts as possible,
use
as few connections as possible, reduce the feature set to a bare
minimum,
produce a set of instructions that can be followed by the average
hobbyist
using common household tools, and have the customer build the
controllers so
that you have no customer support or manufacturing liability issues.
Otmar spends $20000 on transistors so he knows they match and they will
work
in parallel. If you use one big transistor, you won't need to match
transistors since you only use one.
The Radio Shack IRF510 transistors (276-2072 @ $1.99) are rated at only
3
amps at 60 volts. That is not big enough to run a very big motor. The
IRF640
(18 amps at 200 V) that they formerly stocked had some potential. You
need
bigger transistors. Forget about Radio Shack as a power parts source.
You are right. The hairball has too many features for your design. You
should drop it. You don't need it. The Curtis and the power wheels
designs
have startup current surge problems. You need to make sure the customer
understands that he needs to deal with this problem, since your design
will
have reliability issues (just like Curtis and Power Wheels) if the
customer
does not deal with it. You can cut costs by having the customer take
responsibility for your lack of a precharge controller. Then again, you
may
want to design a precharge controller that is external to the controller
and
is sold separately. That would look like a hairball and does not fit
your
plan.
You are right again about the PFC being complex. There are a lot of
features
packed into that box. You can cut costs by eliminating features. The box
can
be reduced in size if the current capability is reduced. Many users
rarely
use the full current capability of those chargers for very long. Many
users
are perfectly content to let their EV charge overnight. They don't need
a
fast charger or a versatile input voltage capability. High power factor
is
only needed to get more watts out of the wall, keep the wiring cool and
keep
the circuit breaker happy at high power. If you never ask for high power
or
fast charging, these features are wasted.
If you want pictures of the inside of a PFC-20 charger, they have been
at
the following location since January 2001:
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/pfc20rts.jpg
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/pfc2012.jpg
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/pfc2011.jpg
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/pfc20ls.jpg
Rich is currently shipping Rev 8 chargers therefore these Rev 2 photos
are 6
revisions and 7 years out of date. The design has not changed much
except
for improved parts being installed as they became available.
The toughest part of building a battery charger is determining when to
turn
the current down or turn it off. You could put two settings on your
charger:
Bulk and equalize. You could have the customer manually switch between
the
two settings on the base model. You could call it an automatic charger
if
the switch position changed itself at a preset time or voltage level so
that
the customer did not need to watch the charger all night waiting for the
proper moment to throw the switch. Maybe the switch adds too much to the
cost and no one would buy the more expensive model.
Is there a market for "Cheap EV Parts"? Someone needs to wade into the
market with an appropriate line of components and see if they can
develop a
good customer base. Some people on this list say there is no market for
cheap parts. I believe there is a market. Is there money in that market?
I
don't know. You are a good person to find out. If you believe you can
break
even using this business plan, go for it and we will be looking for
cheaper
parts being available in the future.
If you want to work this business plan, you should assemble a product
team,
design some products, build the products and market the products to the
world. If you have a reasonable product at a reasonable price with
reasonable service, then you should succeed in your effort and at least
break even at the end of the year. Otmar, Damen, Russ, Victor, and Rich
have
done it. Therefore you have an opportunity to do it, too.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 3:37 AM
Subject: New Zillch Controller
I'm new to EVs. My name is Dan Crankenstein.
EV controllers are too expensive. So I have a plan to make a new
controller called the "Zillch". It's called the "Zillch" because it
won't cost that much to make.
I can make them cheaper but I need your help. If you have a Zilla
controller can you crack it open and take some pictures of it for me?
I'm too cheap to buy one myself. On Otmar's blog he says he's paying
$20,000 for transistors. Now hold on there, that's way too much. I
can get a whole bunch of them for $20.00 at Radio Shack. I think I
have enough Radio Shack points accumulated now for a $5.00 coupon
this month.
My new "Zillch" controller won't have a "Hairball." First of all, it
sounds like something the cat coughed up. And having a hairball is
like having a transmission in an EV - you don't need one. So my
controller won't have this "hairball" thing. That will make it
cheaper. The Curtis controller didn't have a "Hairball". My nephew's
Power Wheels doesn't have a hairball.
So that's the plan for the new "Zillch" controller.
Also, I left a message on Rich Rudman's voicemail and offered him my
advice on chargers but he won't call back. So if anyone has a PFC
charger I need you to open those up and take some pictures for me.
PFC sounds "Pretty Fricken Complex" so I'm naming my charger "PFA"
for "Pretty Fricken Affordable." And my charger will be smaller and
will use smaller wiring to make it lighter.
Who's with me? Just send your photos to [EMAIL PROTECTED] We'll
worry about the "Intellectual Property Rights" thing -whatever that
means - later on. Right now the most intellectual thing to do is make
cheap EV parts.
And with my new EV parts I'll throw in a free fire extinguisher. I
bet Otmar and Rich won't offer those for free.
Thanks,
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Assuming you don't have huge ammounts of money sitting around...commonly
available motors and generators are going to be 80%-90% efficient.
Towing a trailer requires lots of power, towing up hill requies HUGE
ammounts of power.
For simplicities sake, let's assume we only need 200 hp (at the wheels) to
tow uphill. Let's also assume we are using the more affordable 80% eff
motors/generators (this way we can keep the project under $100,000).
So 200 hp at the wheels requires about 190KW input power to the
motor/controller. To generate 190kw requires about 320 hp mechanical
input to the generator.
So instead of needing a 200 hp motor we need a 320 hp motor, plus huge
generator and a huge electric motor.
Normal hybrids would use a smaller motor/generator and get the extra power
from batteries. This would work if you never had to climb a hill that
took longer than about 5 minutes to get to the top, and didn't need to
climb another hill for at least and hour or two. That's a pretty rare
circumstance if you are towing any distance.
The Army had a hybrid Hummer developer back in the 90s. It made a lot of
improvements over the normal hummer, better mileage, power, etc.
It also used $150,000 worth of high efficiency motors/generators, and it
weighed so much that it only had enough cargo capacity left for a couple
soldiers and their personal gear. It had virtually no towing capacity.
> Stuart, Peter and the group,
>
> Given the weight problem of batteries as the sole source of power for a
> pickup truck, what about a diesel-electric generator + batteries as a
> power source? (Basically a diesel hybrid) I know that Toyota/Hino have
> been operating light trucks in Japan with this power train starting in
> 2001. All I get is a stone wall when I ask Toyota/Hino about them.
>
> My real question is:
>
> Would a diesel-electric hybrid truck along the lines of a 1/2 or 3/4 ton
> pickup be feasible as a tow vehicle for a travel trailer?
>
>
> J.J. Hayden
> Long time lurker
>
> J.J. Hayden
> http://home.earthlink.net/~jjhayden
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a student that would like to subscribe to the list, but I don't remember
how. Thanks.--
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with Jukka that a fully on-board PHEV is a compromised EV when in
all-electric drive mode. Until the magic batteries and quick charge
infrastructure are available, detachable ICE (range extender trailer) seems
an attractive option. Configure it properly, and you also have a utility
generator trailer with 120/240 AC wherever you go, as well as extra space
for hauling tools and toys.
A good concept can be undermined by improper configuration. Also,
meticulous engineering on a lame concept is just polishing a turd. There is
no way an ICE gen trailer powering an EV will be as energy efficient as an
economical ICE-only vehicle, but it if you don't take long trips often, it
may be more efficient than owning, insuring, and registering 2 completely
separate vehicles. One thing you can do to cut your energy efficiency
losses is sizing the gen more modestly so you're not hauling around alot of
extra gen weight, but large enough to give you 2-4 hours of highway time.
If you know what the average kW draw of your EV is at highway speed, size
the gen for that. By the time you add the weight and drag of the trailer,
it will be a little underpowered for continuous highway travel, but not
overweight. Use the batteries as an energy buffer, and plan on stopping
every 2-4 hours, not to top off the battery pack, just to get to 80%.
Remembering that the source electricity for even a fully plug-in EV may be
coal, hydro, solar, wind, nuke, etc, it's fair to consider the source of
fuel when producing the electricity onboard the vehicle (trailer). I've had
positive experience with SVO (straight vegetable oil) to power a
not-very-smelly ICE car. For now it seems a decent candidate fuel for
producing portable electricity.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jukka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
Right. I choose the car according the need. If I need 200 miles I take the
200 mile car from the garage. That's as easy as that.
Just out of curiosity I put 300 kg of lead acids as extra weight to
trailer and drove 200 km with one charge. Now If I would have had there
Lions too and connected to the drivesystem, I would have achieved 400-450
km range with the Berlingo.
I do not know about you but after that kind of trip I really need to get
some rest and sleep. That's nearly 6 hours of continous driving. That is
already extreme.
If the EV should do the 500 km every freaking day it has to be specially
designed for the job.
Clearly the case is that if you need ICE range and instant fueling forget
EVs for now. It just isn't the right tool for the job.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
you are just being silly :) and wrong
rather than a range extender you would rather just drive your ev?? : )
why didn't I think of that. that's brilliant
jukka wrote:
Com'on man. I'd rather swallow razor blades than destroy the whole EV
concept with smelly ICE.
I rather drive my EVs all around and then rent a Ferrari for a week with
the saved money every year.
I'll be the guy passing with Italian horses while you murder the small
ice with overrevs.. eh eh ehee hhee.. °°°! (Am I out of line? hope so
:)
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
no. small onboard ice gen for use only when batteries are flat.
jukka wrote:
How about a small trailer with even a bit of room for ballast ?
I was plannig to make a trailer with Lions under the floor. And a nice
small cover for the extra luggage.
The trailer would be an independent unit with charger and etc. You
drive with it a distance (say 80 miles) then you leave it for charging
some where and continue without it or you can just keep dragging it
along untile reached the destiation. You could still use the oh-so-old
lead in the car for comfort.
A small trailer could sell for 5000-8000 USD. Or how about If few
would be made and rented for testing ? Or a EV chapter aquire one and
folks can use it when needed. 1 week annually each member.
-Jukka
Michael Wendell kirjoitti:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the innefficiencies
of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this
information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
--- End Message ---
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Wilker
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Dumb question time
I have a student that would like to subscribe to the list, but I don't remember
how. Thanks.--
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ed.cooley wrote:
> 1) does anyone actually have a generator on their vehicle,
> and know how loud it is?
> or is it all conjecture? "it must be noisy, and I don't like
> the idea, so you must be crazy since I'm an environmentalist
> (and I'm right)..." is hardly a valid argument.
The remark regarding noise is based on statements posted to this list in
past years by people who have tried it.
I believe Rich Rudman had a genset cart based on a Metro engine (and
aircraft starter/generator head?) that was described as "shaking itself
apart in use".
I'm aware of only a few people on the list using genset-type range
extenders:
- Dave 'battery boy' Hawkins (IIRC), in Colorado (genset in back of
pickup, I think)
- Alain St-Yves (whose "vehicule vert" webiste you reference), in
Quebec, not Ontario. Also using a homemade genset in the bed of the
truck. 11HP Honda engine driving a 7.5HP induction generator. The
combo delivers a steady 4.5kW and with respect to noise, Alain suggests
one might throttle it back when crossing a town or city and crank it
back up on the way out of town.
- Doug Hartley, also in Quebec, who I believe uses (and sells?) range
extender gensets based on a BLDC generator head.
> Renting is problematic, as I don't want to have to deal
> with the paperwork, hassle of picking one up - (and how
> do I get there? and do I want to leave my precious EV
> there over the weekend?) every time I go visit family.
This is true. Public transit, taxi, or a lift from a friend are all
possible solutions, though all still have varying degrees of
inconvenience.
Actually, providing the genset with routine maintenance, hooking it up
to the EV, and perhaps dropping it into the bed of the truck before each
long trip and pulling it back out afterwards are all greater
inconvenience than simply hopping in a second car for the occasional
longer trips, so I suppose it is all a matter of how much, and what type
of, inconvenience you are willing to tolerate.
It will certainly vary depending on the laws, etc. where one lives, but
for me renting a vehicle for occasional long trips is by far the
cheapest route. If I keep a second car, then I either need to keep it
insured all year, in addition to the EV, at a cost of $1000 or so, or I
have the inconvenience of needing to purchase temporary insurance just
before each trip (and then paying a premium for that, as short term
insurance costs more per day than insuring for a year at a time).
Either way, I have the inconvenience of taking the vehicle through
emission testing and having it take up space in my driveway or garage
most of the time.
The advantage of renting is that (except perhaps with Rent-a-Wreck ;^)
one always has a new, low mileage car to drive (newer by a long shot
than any car I've ever owned! ;)
Around here, trailers need to be registered/insured, and while that cost
is probably minimal compared to insuring a car, it still means a range
extender trailer may be costing you money the entire year whether used
or not.
A trailer has the disadvantage for me that the most likely use I'd have
for it is to allow my EV to make it to my in-laws, but that involves a
ferry ride and there's a hefty fare premium with a trailer. I'd go for
the onboard approach, but since my EV is a [small] car my thought was to
put the genset into a roof-mounted luggage 'pod'. These thoughts
occurred before I had the EV on the road; now that its on the road, I've
pretty much dismissed the idea of a genset range extender.
If you are seriously considering using a range extender to allow driving
non-stop for hours, something to consider when building your EV is to
'over-size' the motor relative to what EVers normally use. For example,
at 144V an ADC 9" is rated for 28.5HP continuous, 30.4HP for 1hr and
48.8HP for 5min, etc. In the case of something like a pickup conversion
you might easily be operating the motor somewhere between the continuous
and 1hr ratings at highway speeds. For pure EVs, we typically run out
of juice in little enough time that we can run our motors [well] above
their continuous (or even 1hr ratings) without harm, but if you add a
range extender to allow driving for 2hrs+ at a time on the highway you
might get into trouble if the terrain is hilly or the speeds highish,
etc.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sell the stupid expensive honda or toyota and build a real EV ??
Jack
Chuck Hays wrote:
From: "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
can the insight's supplemental motor move the car on its own?
No. It cannot and does not run independently of the
ICE. Even if it could, it is approximately 10 hp and
so you wouldn't get much. I believe the Civic
version is about 15 hp.
Honda's system is more like "electric turbocharging"
than hybrid technology. Sad to say, because we own
one ('03 Civic), but the new Prius is hybrid done
right and Honda is just trying to make a bad deal a
little sweeter.
I understand the new version of the Civic Hybrid
can move on E alone, but because of having the
E-motor physically connected to the ICE you still
have to turn over the ICE even if it isn't firing.
That, to me, seems like a real energy waster.
Honda's done some innovative things with variable
valve timing and turning off some active cylinders
under partial load, but they really missed a bet
doing the hybrid system the way they did. I'd
LOVE to be able to put a honkin' pack in the
trunk and be able to drive 25 miles at 40 mph
on the batteries alone -- but as it is there's
not a thing you can do to improve it.
They tried to play with the "electric turbocharger"
idea with the Accord Hybrid, but I see they're
no longer making it because it didn't sell. Truth
to tell, if I want a pavement-ripping Accord I'll
spend less money putting a real turbo on it.
I suspect they didn't want to licence the Prius
system from Toyota the way Ford did. I've been
hearing the word "Betamax" in my head when
I look at the Civic lately. :)=)}
Chuck
_________________________________________________________________
Upgrade to Windows Live Hotmail for free today!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure you could, but what would be the point? You would get the same
effect by just using the motors connected directly to the final reduction.
The only point of all this extra complexity is to handle this ICE's need
to either be stopped or running at a basically fixed RPM.
ELectric motors don't have either of those needs.
>
> Jeff> You can find a lot on the web about the power split Prius design
> Jeff> and operation. Here's one
>
> Jeff> http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
>
> Sorta makes you wonder if you could replace the ICE with more batteries or
> another motor + some extra batteries.
>
> --
> Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I'm sure you've heard there are Prius modifications that put a big
li-ion in the trunk and you can get a moderate amount of EV range out of
it. I'm not sure if they completely disable the ICE or if it still runs
it when you have a lot of throttle input. Currently quite expensive.
They keep calling it the "250 mpg hybrid" on the idea that you might
charge it at home and do 3/4 of your driving from this batt. It is
misleading in that you cannot make a 1000 mi trip on 4 gal of gas.
The Prius is of course a pretty light vehicle, not even capable of
towing except perhaps for a very very light trailer. It can't carry a
whole lot of batts but the li-ion is not all that heavy.
Danny
Michael Wendell wrote:
Jeff> You can find a lot on the web about the power split Prius design
Jeff> and operation. Here's one
Jeff> http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
Skip> Sorta makes you wonder if you could replace the ICE with more
skip> batteries or another motor + some extra batteries.
i've been wondering the exact same thing today.
if, as someone said earlier, the prius will run 11 miles on batteries alone,
we know that the motor has enough power to run the car. why not remove the
ICE and replace it with an equal weight in batteries?
surely someone could design a battery pack that would replace the ICE and be
able to work in conjunction with the existing pack to increase the overall
range to 30 miles or more.
has anyone tried building a pure BEV honda insight? can the insight's
supplemental motor move the car on its own?
m.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher and EVList,
High Voltage? We'd pay to see you direct short any
type 12 volt car battery while you're leaning over it.
Lead acid, or otherwise! Especially ours.
We're sure you wouldn't touch your tongue to a tiny 9v
smoke detector battery very often with the minor zap
it delivers. What about 200 times that amount?
Most of us know of standard batteries, exploding lead
acid damage, sparks, heat, jumper cables, and shock.
We have tested our batteries with bullets, blow
torches, overvolt charging, hammers, crushing,
dropping, overamps charging, extreme engine and solar
heat sources, over discharge rates, and direct shorts.
Put on your goggles and gloves and stand back or you
might have a reason to ask why you were so short
sighted (or sightless).
As far as sales go...............
We have already maxed out out our sales and production
abilities with custom applications and have a 9 week
backorder, we are not seeking more business.
We have not targeted any sales to EVers, but
we are aware that some people will chain batteries
into EV solutions.
In fact, that was our original intended market, but we
were able to sell much more easily to the gassers
(that needed a better battery), and quickly sold out
production.
We love the EVers and the green potential and will
eventually approach and help and try to find EV
solutions and accommodate where we can.
The trouble is that the EVer market is difficult.
EVers want "custom" help, various voltages, thousands
of full DOD discharges, very high performance, high
guarantees, low prices, multiple configurations, and
require special laborious technical support.
We aren't able to talk to "potential" buyers ten times
before a "potential" sale, then discover they can't
consider purchase because of the high initial price,
instead of the amortized (lower) cost per long milage.
Gassers just want a battery that is better (or that
just "works"). They are easy to please and require
very little salesmanship and order hundreds at a time.
When materials prices are reduced and EVers start
using more standards and we can supply users like a
plug-n-play sales solution, we'll be more accessable.
For now, the low-riders, designers, the bikers, the
sound blasters, the bouncers and lift guys, the
robots, the bicyclists, and skateboarders are the
markets we supply.
Hopefully, soon we'll get together.
Ed, Robert, John, Randy,Gary, Lou, Marcio, and staff
GoWheel.com
and
EV-Battery.com
and distributors and private labels and dealers
--- Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > My brother showed me this Li-Ion battery website
> > today:
> > http://www.tekbattery.com/products.html
> My question is, why on earth would each 12V battery
> have a "high
> voltage" warning label? I can understand why you'd
> want to label a 48V+
> *pack* of batteries with such a warning, but each
> battery?
> The danger that a single one of these batteries
> would pose has to do
> with discharge *current* if you short one. But then
> the same is true of
> a car or golf cart battery.
> Am I being too critical, or is the person assembling
> or selling these
> batteries just being dumb/paranoid/etc?
> Christopher Robison
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://ohmbre.org
<-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre +> Z2K + Warp13!
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I posted this earlier under an inapplicable subject line. Forgive a newbie
who's still wrapping his head around EV concepts and culture. My
expertise is ICE automotive repair, maintanence, and customization, but I've
recently developed a great deal of interest in EVs. Over the years I've
grown increasingly disgusted by all things petrol and am looking for a new
direction for my company.
After comparing the (disappointing) products available in the two-wheeled EV
world (I have to include Electric Motorsports in this assessment) with the
capabilities of killacycle and others on the drag circuit, I have to ask if
it's reasonable to pursue development of a scooter/motorcycle capable of 70+
mph, 100+ mile range, 0-60 mph under 5 seconds, and a weight of under 450
lbs. Armor Electric, http://www.armorelectric.com/home.htm, is moving in the
right direction, but I want to see better yet.
With M1 batteries (or similar) these seem like acceptable performance goals
until I consider the difficulty of mass-producing a reliable American-build
product for under $9,000 retail (above which I believe consumer interest
will taper off abruptly). What component set would be required to meet those
benchmarks? Or do they not currently exist?
At this point I have visions of a 72-120V system with three packs of A123
Systems AHR32157M1HD (specs TBD), Zilla Z1K-LV and HB2, and a single pancake
motor (source undecided) bolted to a CVT with belt final drive, although I'm
intrigued by the possibility of a Brusa motor/controller combo. And what's
the deal with Raser Technologies? Why no commercially available
motor/controller package if the technology is so fantastic?
Thoughts?
Lon Hull
Owner - Superstructure Industries LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]@comcast.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mil graci
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
---- David S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Wilker
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Dumb question time
I have a student that would like to subscribe to the list, but I don't remember
how. Thanks.--
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:27 PM, jukka wrote:
I have to be clear here. Most of you are in states. I have no right
to sell stuff there. Thou I can give for free. :) There is a sole
distributorship and own battery factory in USA. It's an independent
company but has licensed the TS tech.
Are you able to give the name and contact info for this company? A
web site and/or product line info available for purchase in the U.S.
would be good too.
Having someone from the company on this list answering questions and
not ignoring the past problems is a good first step to repairing TS
reputation damage. Replacing defective past product would be another
positive step.
I didn't buy any of the original TS batteries but positive reports of
their current use would certainly influence future battery choices. I
do tend to listen to words from Lee Hart, Rich Rudman, John Lussmyer,
and any number of other experienced EVers.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The price new is like $30k. This one had only 18 hours (was used for
backup) and was in great shape. The actual turbine and generator aren't
much larger than a 5 gallon bucket. The Air cleaner and sound baffle are
another 5 gallon bucket on front. The weight is pretty trivial.
The alternator/starter itself is a 3-phase, and is about the size of 2 beer
cans end to end. Surprisingly small. Cooled by the intake air.
It spins VERY FAST (close to 100k rpm).
The inverter and control electronics are about the size of a suitcase.
There are some other components, but other than the AGM battery pack (240
volts of Hawkers) they don't take up much space.
The on-board inverter is programmable and will do grid intertie, or output
any voltage or frequency you might want. From DC to like
600hz if I remember right. It will do three phase AC as well.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Turbine Range Extender
I would imagine the price might be less amazing but sure. do you have a
picture of the turbine itself? the size
power wise it should be quite fitting. what is the size of the generator
attached to it?
Dan
(-Phil-) wrote:
Not too long ago I had the pleasure to work on a Capstone C-30 Turbine
generator. Amazing piece of technology. As soon as I got my hands on
it, I felt the urge to cram it in an EV.
It's extraordinarily clean and very small and light with only one moving
part, and even that one part is suspended with low friction air bearings.
It would be the ideal range-extender. I hatched this plan in my head to
make a removable sled that could be loaded in for long trips. I also
toyed with the idea of taking a large chunk of the pack out when this is
done.
In the end, this would only make sense if I was limited to one vehicle,
although it sure would be neat!
-Phil
--- End Message ---
