EV Digest 6942

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: hey can anyone help me with batteries and construction
        by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Motor Efficiency
        by "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: Energizer Bunny Batteries for EV's.
        by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Dependable Batteries
        by "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
        by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) CVT (was Manly EV's,  RE: EV are for girls blog)
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: EV Scooter
        by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Energizer Bunny Batteries for EV's.
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Chargers!
        by "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Chargers!
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) vroombox and EV ?
        by "Florian Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design, CVT, controllers
        by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Invention to cool the inside of a car.
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Make it
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: vroombox and EV ?
        by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Vacuum Pump from Cruise Control
        by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Need ideas for electric motor use
        by Markus Lorch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Chargers!
        by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: Manly EV's,  RE: EV are for girls blog
        by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Dependable Batteries
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Milestones: Carbon fiber and blogs
        by "Mitch Patenaude" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) RE: whats the difference between gearing a motor for speed vs 
     distance
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
        by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Ultimate magnetic motor design
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Gulabrao welcome to the EV List.

I suggest you make several posts each with a different subject 
asking each of your questions. Also, consider explaining what 
your EV conversion project is to achieve: long range-low speed,
high speed-short range, etc. (tell the EV List what is important
to you. 

An EV is a long term investment. Each person's EV conversion 
has different needs. If your EV is designed to meet your needs,
your investment will pay off in the long term (do not be in
a hurry to make a mistake).

Do not be discouraged, and please be patient to gather all the 
information you need before you start spending money: less-
mistakes mean more EV smiles (aka EV grin).

Please read as much as you can about EV conversions ( evdl.org ,
eaaev.org , web searches about EVs , etc.). Also use those 
links to learn EV component sources. 

I will try to answer a few of your questions, but Tom's 
suggestion to posts each question individually would be better:

1.  27hp [ ref
http://www.wattsgenerators.com/product_info.php/products_id/58 ]
    but are you making a hybrid or an EV?

2.  6V traction (aka golf cart) batteries allow for the deepest
    healthy     discharge. All others have less pack life and
    less range. Are you making a 120 VDC EV?

3.  Check the EV component sources, but an example is an 8"
    Advanced DC motor for sedans, and a 9" Advanced DC motor for
    heavier vehicles.

4.  900kg=1984lbs, 100kmph=62mph
   
http://www.aluminumbottles.com/cgi-bin/webman/elemental/conversion
    120VDC EV conversion: I suggest a light truck, or a larger
    sedan with the room for 20 6V batteries.

5.  I do not suggest this. Convert the vehicle 1st, then consider
    adjustments/enhancements later.

6.  Check the EV component sourcesI mentioned above.

7.  Read the EV faq's I mentioned above.

8.  Read the EV faq's I mentioned above.

9.  Read the EV faq's I mentioned above.

10. See #2 & read the EV faq's I mentioned above.

11. No most off-the-shelf EV component will work fine. My
    guess-timate is a light truck converted to Electric
    using a 120 VDC pack of 20 6V traction/golf-cart batteries,
    will go 65mph, and have a range of 45 miles at a
    steady 55mph (72km at a steady 88kmph on a flat highway)

If you do not get a response, or the answer you want, consider
your post's subject and its wording might be the cause. Try
reposting, focusing the subject to one question, and be 
patient.

I hope this has helped you.



Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter

' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up... 
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On evconvert.com's EV calculator I get dramatic differences in range
b/w different motors of simular size and capability.

With an ADC 9" motor I go 67 miles @ 50mph in my setup.

In the same setup, with a Warp 9 motor I go 49 miles @50 mph.


What's happening here???

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- My local Sam's club also has "Energizer' branded golf cart batteries. They only had the 8 volters, though, and I didn't see any ratings at all on them.

I also tried to find out some technical info about them on the web, and I could not find any reference at all to Energizer golf cart batteries.

The 8 volters were $67 at my local store, about 6 weeks ago. They also said there was a "core charge". I guess that means they charge you an extra fee for each battery you buy unless you have old batteries to give them in exchange. I didn't find out how much the core charge was.

They had the usual stud-out-the-top terminals.

Phil


From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Energizer Bunny Batteries for EV's.
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 11:26:50 -0600

I was just a Sam's Club and they replace all there auto, truck, golf club
batteries with Energizer Bunny Batteries. They show a display of batteries
from the AAAA to the 6 volt golf cart which is rated at 220 AH.

I could not get the reserved min capacity at 75 amps rating, but I estimates
it should be between 105 to 110 minutes.  They are in a black heavy case
which are similar to my Trojan batteries with lifting attachments.

The cost of these batteries are about $61.95.

Roland


_________________________________________________________________
Don’t miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my application (144 volts, drawing 1000 amps every once in a while,
Old Honda Civic/CRX) which of these batteries would be good? i.e. last
for about 2-3 years the way I'm using them.

US-8VGC? Does anyone have experience with these?

8-Volt Trojan batteries? These have a very high peukert's number though.

AGM? Optima? Orbital?

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---



From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Manly EV's,  RE: EV are for girls blog
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 09:26:30 -0700

I agree in principle, but I still say a continuously variable transmission would be ideally suited to electric drive.

I disagree, Electric motors ( compared to IC engines) have much broader torque curves and are generally efficient over a wide RPM range.

CV transmissions make the most sense for motors or engines that work best at a very narrow RPM range. For EVs, a CV transmission would be a solution without a problem.


Phil Marino



Has even one
person here tried it yet? Anybody? Bueller?

Lon Hull,
Portland, OR


----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog


I think we can put this manly/transmission/ACvDC debate to bed for once and for all. Is 315 mph manly enough? Nothing electric has gone faster. The Buckeye Bullet did 315 mph with a 5 speed tranny and AC. <http://www.buckeyebullet.com/history.htm> If you want to go truly fast, it'll take a transmission with multiple gear ratios.

----- Original Message ----
From: jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:27:30 PM
Subject: Manly EV's,  RE: EV are for girls blog

          Hi Damon and All,

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EV are for girls blog
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:04:50 +0000

Well sure Jerry, there is the giiiiirly way of doing things
, and then there  is the MANNNNNLY way :-)

     Depends on what you call manly!  I think 2 big
hairy,uh, motors to a diff with a Zilla in a 914/Karman
Ghia, Factory Five Cobra Coupe kitcar is manly in it's own
lean, mean, smart mans way ;^P
     Do you really think the White Zombie would be faster
with a trans?
     Of course if you want to kulge things together with
the added weight, drag of a trans/clutch and it's less
range, speed, more hassle, larger battery, EV drive to carry
the extra weight, drag and the larger drives, battery weight
too is more caveman manly. Less really is more in many
cases!
     And before you say the 2 motors weigh more, consider 2
ES-21's/A89's will beat the stuff out of an 8" at less
weight and cost with much more torque, cont, peak power  ;^D

    Since D+D makes each of their motors custom for you at
under $500 each, you can get custom windings, double shafts
to mate twin motors easily together and to a diff in any
size 6.7" from them. Since I'm going belt drive, I'll just
put mine nose to nose and belt off the middle.
     As my yrs sailing at sea in small boats and building
boats has taught me, actually beat into me, finesse is the
best way by far, not brute strength in most everything. In
EV's, it gives you extra range, acceleration, top speed for
less money, pollution, energy, work!! Your choice ;^D
                            KIS,
                             Your somewhat manly friend,
                                    Jerry Dycus

From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EV are for girls blog
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:01:12 -0500


          Hi All,
              I came across this blog and it is pretty
good. Even she knew to chose a light, aero EV glider and
EV's don't need a clutch/transmission, John and Madman!

http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/build-your-own.
html
                             Jerry Dycus







____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
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_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Jun 2007 at 9:26, Loni wrote:

> Has even one person here tried [CVT] yet? Anybody?

This is kind of vague, but here goes.

I know of at least one Formula Lightning racer which tried it some years 
back.  They used a Honda transaxle, IIRC.  No idea what the results were.  

At least one person in CA also was doing some work with CVTs in EVs in 
the 1980s.  I could probably find his name if I went back through my old 
issues of Current EVents, but that would take more time than I have free at 
the moment, sorry.  Maybe one of the west coast old-timers will remember 
who it was, and how it worked out.

My view is that the torque band of most motors is so much wider than an ICE 
that the higher losses in a CVT result in a net loss over a conventional 
transmission.  Seems to me that most motors really need only 2-3 ratios to 
be happy.  I'm not an engineer, though.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- That's not entirely correct, at least not for the electrical soldering irons.

Although you don't solder by feeding the bulk of solder into the hot iron (apply to the hot part), you should always apply a small amount of solder to the iron before beginning,

Soldering irons have a plated tip that is not alloyed, eroded, or damaged in any way by the solder. It is damaged by oxidation, however. Once a heated soldering iron is cleaned by wiping away old solder, it is good practice to re-tin it immediately. Thus if you're leaving it on the bench hot to 5 minutes while you ready something else to work on, leave the old solder on there- do not clean and re-tin until you start again. Don't clean the tip before turning it off.

Tinning will also greatly improve the heat transfer to the cold part before it reaches the temperature where solder will wick onto it.

But that being said, don't actually apply to solder needed to fill the joint to the iron, that goes into the heated part.

Danny

Peter VanDerWal wrote:

Joseph is correct.  The proper way to solder is to use the soldering iron
to heat the metal parts (leads, ckt card, etc) and then melt the solder on
to the hot part.

Melting the solder onto the soldering iron is quicker, but a bad idea for
a couple reasons:
1) Solder actually melts the metal it comes in contact with and forms an
alloy.  If you apply the solder to the iron, it will melt the tip of the
iron a little bit at a time and eventually wear it away.

2) Melting the solder on the iron instead of the join often means that the
joint is not hot enough to melt the solder.  This means that the joint
isn't hot enough to melt the solder, in other words the solder does NOT
end up forming an alloy with the metal in the connection and you end up
with a cold solder joint.

Joseph Tahbaz wrote:
When I soldered I had the solderer actually touch the solder.
I later found out I wasn't supposed to do this, after I
finished soldering...
I am wondering what you used to solder with...
My soldering iron surely needs to be in direct contact with
the solder spot, else the metal won't melt.
This is true whether you have a 15W iron for small components
and precise work or a 120W iron to "solder a nail to a train".
Reason for the contact requirement is the temperature of the
iron is just a bit higher than the melting temp of solder.
Now, if you are using a flame to solder, like plumbers do,
then it becomes a different story. But plumbers need to heat
a large section of waterpipe to allow solder to flow well into
a joint... Not anywhere precise type of solder work and you
better not use a flame to solder electronics or thin wires,
as you will destroy the parts in the process.

Should I solder the connections all over again and do it
the right way, or it doesn't really matter that much?
If the connections are tight and solder flowed well between
the wires, then there is no reason to redo them.

Success,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb





--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The core charge for a deep cycle battery is about $5.00. less for other 
batteries.  But it is worth it for me when I went to a Trojan dealer with my 
EV and they help me remove all my batteries and install the others, charging 
no core cost but the labor was free.

My Trojan T-145's cost me $78.00 each back in 2002.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 1:41 PM
Subject: RE: Energizer Bunny Batteries for EV's.


> My local Sam's club also has "Energizer' branded golf cart batteries. 
> They
> only had the 8 volters, though, and I didn't see any ratings at all on 
> them.
>
> I also tried to find out some technical info about them on the web, and I
> could not find any reference at all to Energizer golf cart batteries.
>
> The 8 volters were $67 at my local store, about 6 weeks ago.  They also 
> said
> there was a "core charge".  I guess that means they charge you an extra 
> fee
> for each battery you buy unless you have old batteries to give them in
> exchange.  I didn't find out how much the core charge was.
>
> They had the usual stud-out-the-top terminals.
>
> Phil
>
>
> >From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: "ev" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >Subject: Energizer Bunny Batteries for EV's.
> >Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 11:26:50 -0600
> >
> >I was just a Sam's Club and they replace all there auto, truck, golf club
> >batteries with Energizer Bunny Batteries. They show a display of 
> >batteries
> >from the AAAA to the 6 volt golf cart which is rated at 220 AH.
> >
> >I could not get the reserved min capacity at 75 amps rating, but I
> >estimates
> >it should be between 105 to 110 minutes.  They are in a black heavy case
> >which are similar to my Trojan batteries with lifting attachments.
> >
> >The cost of these batteries are about $61.95.
> >
> >Roland
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from 
> Microsoft
> Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/
>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On electroauto's website they show the Zivan NG3 charger using either
115 Volts for a slow charge or 240 volts for a faster charge. I could
use the 115 volt charger, just put it in the trunk, and then I charge
at any 110 volt outlet, right?

Plus, a slower charge will enhance cycle life, correct?

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Joseph,

I find that a multi voltage, multi ampere charger works best for me.  It can 
charge a 12 volt battery or to over 400 volts of batteries at very low 
ampere below 1 amp to at or over 50 amps with any input voltages from 60 vac 
to 250 vac.

No input VAC voltage adjustment is required.  I can plug my EV into a 110, 
115, 120, 125, 208, 220, 230, 240 or 250 vac receptacles. Depending the 
voltage of the battery pack, just adjust the voltage to about 7.5 volt for 
every 6 volt battery or 15.0 volt for every 12 volt battery, and adjust the 
ampere from 0.01 to 50 amps, depending on the receptacle rating.

I am using a 180 volt pack of 6 volt batteries, so 7.5 volts x 30 batteries 
= 225 volts for the maximum charge voltage.  For a balance charge, which I 
do every 4 months its about 7.78 volts per battery or the maximum is about 
233.5 volts for me.

Lets say I lose a battery, than I install a jumper that I had made up in my 
EV tool box, and then I can lower the charging voltage to 225 - 7.5 = 217.5 
volts until I get it replace.

I can add more batteries if I want, which depends on the maximum voltage 
rating of your controller.  I can go up to 300 volts if I want to which is 
the maximum pack volt I would use on the Zilla I have now.

The charger I am using is a PFC-50 charger made by Manzanita Micro by Rich 
Rudman who is on this list, and even may respond to this e-mail.

After removing 50 AH from my 260 AH batteries, it may only take about 60 
minutes or less to charge the batteries to 90 to 95 percent, of which the 
battery voltage will be at the maximum voltage that is dial in. It may take 
another 30 to 60 minutes to put in the last 10 percent if you need to get 
the range you need for a safe level discharge which is about 50% DOD.

My batteries are now going on 6 years using this type of charger and plan to 
go another 6 years with it.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 2:20 PM
Subject: Chargers!


> On electroauto's website they show the Zivan NG3 charger using either
> 115 Volts for a slow charge or 240 volts for a faster charge. I could
> use the 115 volt charger, just put it in the trunk, and then I charge
> at any 110 volt outlet, right?
>
> Plus, a slower charge will enhance cycle life, correct?
>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thinking about the pedestrians that don´t hear an EV coming, i was wondering if 
it´s possible to install the vroombox in an EV.

What do you think ?

http://www.vroombox.com/vroombox/
-- 
Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört?
Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Thanks for the reply, Jerry. Are these the people you refer to: http://www.hoffcocomet.com/comet/index.asp ? I don't see anything about true CVTs on their site, but Luk Products has a very easy-to-understand animation of their CVT here: http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedien/media/_shared_media/products/passenger_cars/transmission_systems/continuously_variable_transmission__cvt_/CVT_060406.m1v

Of course, there's no reason why a high-powered DC motor with a simplified controller (or an AC with a simplified inverter/controller) couldn't run the motor up to ideal rpm and hold it there while the CVT computer performs speed control. Simplicity, efficiency, and weight/cost-savings. With modern design and materials it's almost a no-brainer, and it sure beats wringing the tar out of a motor (or over-building it) to get desired performance across a broad vehicle speed range or shifting a balky (and comparatively heavy) manual trans.

I'm going to continue to pursue this.

Lon Hull
Portland, OR

          Yes, they have normally with a PM or shunt motor.
Not that good with lower eff but not that bad either. Ones
that are manually variable with a constant speed motor work
as a mechanical speed controller!! The parent company of
Comet Torque converters, Salisbury? made them before but
don't know if they still do. It's a viable method if
designed right. Maybe you could modify a Comet version to be
manually controlled instead of centrifical weights.
         RQRiley used them in some of his designs on his
website as did the Sundancer EV, both from the 70's.
                                 Jerry Dycus

-Lon Hull,
-Portland, OR



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about this idea. simple ammonia absorption.
   We buy calcium chloride and put it in stainless tubing sweat soldered
to the surface of the roof or trunk, maybe add a black heatsink.
   a Box with water in it and tubes to blow air contains a sealed
chamber for the ammonia and a heat excahnger between them with a fan,

2 modes
 Parked in the sun the black heatsink heats the Calcium Chloride
driveing off the ammonia and a solar panel or even the pack runs a fan
allowing it to condense into the icebox chamber.
 Driving, we blow air off over the ice box into the car and the air
outside now flowing past the heatsinks, allows re-absorption.
 an electric heater and fan can precharge this system while chargeing.

www.solarhaven.org/*Ammonia*AbsorptionIcemaker.pdf

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sometimes great ideas are tossed aside because the materials fail them.
It is good to re-visit designs as material science improves constantly.
or at least a heck of a lot in the past 100 years.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure, why not? But I'd rather use the horn- or if close enough, just
call out, "Hi guys! Coming through!" Or such like.
    Or you could carry Zamfir around with you: remember, "Pan Pipes
Save Lives!"



     Hm. That doesn't sound right.

On 6/24/07, Florian Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thinking about the pedestrians that don´t hear an EV coming, i was wondering if 
it´s possible to install the vroombox in an EV.

What do you think ?

http://www.vroombox.com/vroombox/
--
Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört?
Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been looking at this vacuum pump that I pulled
from the Mitsubishi Eclipse during the I.C.E. junk
removal.  Has anyone connected a cruise control vacuum
pump to a PVC vacuum canister and have it operate the
power brakes?  I can see installing a oneway air valve
between the pump and the PVC boost canister, but not
sure how to have the pump cutoff by itself when enough
vacuum is reached.

Thoughts on salvaging this vacuum pump, or is it just
not possible in an automatic manner.



M. Barkley
   
  www.texomaev.com
   
  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1135

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It doesn't sound powerful enough. My GE Elec-Trak uses
a 3HP motor as the drive motor which can eat up to 400A if
need be (and hence produce more torque than a 20hp gas engine),
plus the elec-trak has three mower motors. Each one drivin a single
blade with about 2x the power rating (3/4 HP) of your motor.

I would use it on a kids toy, like a souped up power wheels but
its a bit on the heavy side. Seems more useful for something
stationary. Too the low RPM might make it a candidate for a wind
turbine generator IMHO but then a motor wired for 48V or more would do better there.

Markus

Tad Coles schrieb:
I wonder if it would work as a riding lawn mower? Any thoughts?


On 6/23/07 4:03 AM, "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

That just means that it can only run for 5 minutes at 35 amps.  If it's
only drawing 20 amps, it can probably run for hours.  Longer than your
batteries will last at least.
Given the low RPM, you could also probably get away with running it at
36-48V, and get a higher RPM.
35 lbs is a bit heavy for a bicycle though, might be better on a go-kart.

Mitchell,
What about 5-min duty?
Tad


On 6/22/07 10:47 PM, "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Make a electric bicycle
Mitchell

-------Original Message-------

From: Tad Coles
Date: 6/22/2007 11:43:21 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Need ideas for electric motor use

Needed - creative thinker!
I have come across an electric motor and am looking for ideas on how to
put
It to use. It is old and heavy (35 LB) and not very powerful. It was
made by

Marathon Electric Mfg. Corp. In Wausau, WI. The plate on it states it
is:
Direct current,
12 volt,
1/3 HP,
35 amp,
600 RPM,
5 minute duty,
Relay-none,
Model 2A56E8E5A W,
Inspected Electric Motor for Hazardous Location, Class T, Group D,
F567698.
The story is that these motors were used in electric wheelchairs, which
Seems odd with the 5-minute duty rating. I thought about using it as a
winch

On my truck, but when I compared it to winch motors available today it
seems

Like an inefficient proposal since $75 will buy a motor and winch drum
that
Would out perform this old beast.

Thanks,

Tad Coles





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Rolland,
what name brand description of charger sounds verry
versitle
keith
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello Joseph,
> 
> I find that a multi voltage, multi ampere charger
> works best for me.  It can 
> charge a 12 volt battery or to over 400 volts of
> batteries at very low 
> ampere below 1 amp to at or over 50 amps with any
> input voltages from 60 vac 
> to 250 vac.
> 
> No input VAC voltage adjustment is required.  I can
> plug my EV into a 110, 
> 115, 120, 125, 208, 220, 230, 240 or 250 vac
> receptacles. Depending the 
> voltage of the battery pack, just adjust the voltage
> to about 7.5 volt for 
> every 6 volt battery or 15.0 volt for every 12 volt
> battery, and adjust the 
> ampere from 0.01 to 50 amps, depending on the
> receptacle rating.
> 
> I am using a 180 volt pack of 6 volt batteries, so
> 7.5 volts x 30 batteries 
> = 225 volts for the maximum charge voltage.  For a
> balance charge, which I 
> do every 4 months its about 7.78 volts per battery
> or the maximum is about 
> 233.5 volts for me.
> 
> Lets say I lose a battery, than I install a jumper
> that I had made up in my 
> EV tool box, and then I can lower the charging
> voltage to 225 - 7.5 = 217.5 
> volts until I get it replace.
> 
> I can add more batteries if I want, which depends on
> the maximum voltage 
> rating of your controller.  I can go up to 300 volts
> if I want to which is 
> the maximum pack volt I would use on the Zilla I
> have now.
> 
> The charger I am using is a PFC-50 charger made by
> Manzanita Micro by Rich 
> Rudman who is on this list, and even may respond to
> this e-mail.
> 
> After removing 50 AH from my 260 AH batteries, it
> may only take about 60 
> minutes or less to charge the batteries to 90 to 95
> percent, of which the 
> battery voltage will be at the maximum voltage that
> is dial in. It may take 
> another 30 to 60 minutes to put in the last 10
> percent if you need to get 
> the range you need for a safe level discharge which
> is about 50% DOD.
> 
> My batteries are now going on 6 years using this
> type of charger and plan to 
> go another 6 years with it.
> 
> Roland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 2:20 PM
> Subject: Chargers!
> 
> 
> > On electroauto's website they show the Zivan NG3
> charger using either
> > 115 Volts for a slow charge or 240 volts for a
> faster charge. I could
> > use the 115 volt charger, just put it in the
> trunk, and then I charge
> > at any 110 volt outlet, right?
> >
> > Plus, a slower charge will enhance cycle life,
> correct?
> >
> > 
> 
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/

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I meant in a car silly, that uses onboard batteries as their primary power 
source ;-P

Although you could argue that a real man's EV gets it power from a big 'ol 
diesel engine :-)  (not that I would make that
argument)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 10:06 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Manly EV's, RE: EV are for girls blog
>
>
> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > Granted, if you're going to be tooling around at 315 mph, then you'll
> > definitely need a tranny, EVen with an AC powered prime mover.  I
> > just wonder how long it took him to get to the first 100mph though
> > ;-)
>
> Bob Rice, how fast does the Japanese bullet train, or French Acela go?
> They are transmissionless. :-)
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>

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> In my application (144 volts, drawing 1000 amps every once in a while,
> Old Honda Civic/CRX) which of these batteries would be good? i.e. last
> for about 2-3 years the way I'm using them.
>
> US-8VGC? Does anyone have experience with these?
THese are good for 350 amps max unless you want to replace them in less
than 1 year.

>
> 8-Volt Trojan batteries? These have a very high peukert's number though.
THese are good for 350 amps max unless you want to replace them in less
than 1 year.

> AGM? Optima? Orbital?
These are the only option that will fit your requirements.  From what I've
seen their performance is similar with maybe a bit more useable AH in the
Orbitals.  I'd base the decision on price.

-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Question: Does anyone know if it is possible to set up a folder in
Gmail that will reroute and organize EVDL mail? The digest is
obnoxious to read through because of all the nested replies, but not
having it in that form is a little overwhelming.

Here's how I filter this stuff.

First I create a label for the mailing list. (You can do either from
the settings tab, or from the drop down-list in the message view.)

Then I create a filter also under the settings tab.  If the mailing
list adds a List-id: header ("Show original" will show you all the
headers) then in the "Has the words" field you can use the special
search term, e.g. listid:foo.example.com if the header looks like
List-Id: <Foo.example.com>)

Unfortunately, the evdl list doesn't supply the List-Id: header, so
you have to use slightly less reliable[*] method of using the To: and
Cc; fields.  You can specify ev@listproc.sjsu.edu in the To field, and
then click next.

On the list of options, I choose "Skip the Inbox" and Apply the label -> EVDL.

I don't find it necessary to have multiple accounts, just lots of labels.

[*] this method is less reliable because if the message to the list is
from a blind-carbon-copy (Bcc: ) then the filter won't catch it, and
it will still end up in your inbox.

 -- Mitch

On 6/22/07, Amy DeMaagd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Remember me? The snotty little girl with big dreams? Well, I'm back,
and I have a blog. Ish. It's mediocre, but it'll do for now.  I'll
build a real website...uh...someday.

http://www.electricspritejournals.blogspot.com

Also, I pulled the trunk lid off my donor car and laid up a compsite
part from it. There was only enough carbon fiber lying around to do
the top layer, so the structural backing and bottom layer of the skin
are plain old fiberglass, but this still is a more than 60% weight
savings(also despite being excessively generous with epoxy. Lesson
learned.).  If I can get my paws on enough carbon fiber to do the
whole car without fiberglass, I'll have to do this part over, but it
is still a pretty exciting milestone.
Although, since carbon fiber and aluminum experience some type of
corrosion, this method may be better. Of course, so do aluminum and
steel and that didn't stop Chevy from using the combination in some
Corvette parts. I will never lose the visual of seeing aluminum
crumble like feta cheese...

I feel somehow guilty that this post does not in any way include
anything technical. Am I doing something wrong if I do not speak in
variables?


May all of your contacts not corrode, and your batteries experience
unnaturally long life.
-Amy



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There is no universally correct answer to this question.

Distance isn't directly linked to gearing like speed is.

It's kind of indirectly linked and depends on the motor.  It's entirely
possible to use a motor with a single ratio transmission that provides
good speed AND distance.

Getting better distance requires you to slow down, but that is because of
aerodynamic drag.  You'll probably get your best distance at somewhere
between 10-20 mph.  Depending on the motor, you might be able to use the
same gearing that allows the vehicle to go 90mph.

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of gulabrao ingle
>> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 9:03 AM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: whats the difference between gearing a motor for speed vs
>> distance
>>
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I want to know what do we have to do to set up a motor and battery setup
>> to
>> gear it for distance vs gearing it for speed ?
>>
>> well I know that a car with a PbA+dc motor can get 130 mph @ a range of
>> 20
>> miles or the same setup can give me 70 mph @ 100 miles
>>
>> what do I have to change or configure to achieve either of these goals ?
>>
>> is  it the controller ? or is it the motor ?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Gulabrao
>>
>
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I disagree, Electric motors ( compared to IC engines) have much broader torque curves and are generally efficient over a wide RPM range.

Hi Phil and all,

Please show me comparison graphs with an electric motor and an ICE motor demonstrating this at a torque value of over 100 lb-ft over a 7000 rpm range. Broader torque curves??? I think you'll see that the torque curve for even the best electric motor falls off precipitously with rpm (particularly past its rated speed), and John Wayland and Bill Dube can tell you all about asking for high output at high rpm from a high-performance DC motor. That's just one of the ways they turn them into plasma balls.


CV transmissions make the most sense for motors or engines that work best at a very narrow RPM range. For EVs, a CV transmission would be a solution without a problem.


I take it you're on the direct-drive side of the EV fence, but the fact is that even electric motors have continuous duty ratings for a reason. The closer you keep your motor to ideal efficiency/temperature/amp draw, the longer it will last and the happier your controller and batteries will be. In a high-voltage system for a daily driver, for example, would you rather have motor speed at 6500 rpm at 80 mph, or 3500?


Lon Hull,
Portland, OR
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--- Begin Message ---
Dale Ulan wrote:
I've been looking at this quite a bit lately. I don't know
if I'm exactly right on this but from what I can tell, a lower
speed AC motor is bigger and heavier.

Of course there are differences in the details, but the basic principles of motor design apply to all motors; AC or DC.

Optimizing performance (best efficiency, best power to weight, etc.) leads to a "square" motor whose height, width, and length are all about the same. There are many factors that push in this direction.

For one, the strength of the magnetic field produced by a coil of wire is proportional to the area of the coil. The resistance of that coil is proportional to the length of wire (perimeter). So, a round coil has the lowest resistance for a given magnetic field strength. We thus want coils as close to round as possible.

Likewise, the least reluctance path for the magnetic flux is also a circle. The magnetic path is therefore also as close to a circle as possible.

For practical reasons having to do with the cost of fabrication, the coils and flux paths are more often square. Thus, we wind up with cylindrical motors whose length is about the same as their diameter. (commutator motors are longer than they are in diameter because the commutator isn't really part of the motor itself -- it's a separate mechanical inverter tacked onto the end).

You get the highest power-to-weight ratio by running the motor as fast as possible before it mechanically self-destructs. This is where commutator motors have a disadvantage -- the commutator is a weaker structure mechanically, and limits the maximum rpm before the rotor does.

The larger the diameter of the rotor, the more torque you get per inch of length. But due to centrifugal force, a larger diameter rotor lowers the maximum rpm at which it will fail. So again there's a tradeoff; really large torques (as needed for a wheel motor) require really large diameters. A "square" motor design would also being very long, and thus very heavy. But if you make the motor short and large diameter, you lower its efficiency and power-to-weight ratio.

A 'typical' 3-phase industrial induction motor actually has
36 individual coils - twelve coils per phase.

This has a lot to do with the intended voltage. They need a certain number of turns for a given voltage.

The number of 'poles' in a motor is determined by how the coils
are interconnected.

No; it's the number of magnetic North and South poles you count in one complete revolution. The poles are pretty obvious in a PM or DC motor. In AC induction motors, they can be subtle -- it is common to design one lamination that they can use for 2, 4, 6, or whatever number of poles they want. They just wind the same basic stack to produce the desired number of poles.

If you were to take a 'typical' 36-winding motor and arrange
things carefully (36 wires coming out), you could easily
make a 2-pole, 18-phase motor. Driving that might be interesting.

Yes; it would be exactly like a typical DC motor with a 36-slot armature. :-)

The "chorous" motor recently mentioned takes this approach. Instead of a 3-phase sinewave inverter, they use a many-phase square wave inverter to drive it. In essence, they build an inside-out DC motor with an external electronic commutator.

The was I see it, you could arrange the phases in six separate
delta or wye motors and drive each delta or wye with a standard
6-switch inverter. Alternatively, you could take each separate
winding pair and drive them with a standard H-bridge (as you would
drive a low-power PM DC motor with reverse).

Yes; read up on how DC motors work.

The main reason that DC motors have higher efficiency and higher power-to-weight than AC motors is because most AC motors are running on 60 Hz, which limits their RPM. Most DC motors are running on much higher frequency AC (produced by the commutator), and so achieve higher speeds, and thus higher performance.

Advantages that I can see from this arrangement is that current
levels in each semiconductor stage are lower, a semiconductor
failure would likely not cause a locked-rotor condition because
only one out of eighteen windings would contribute to braking
torque, and with clever software or FPGA design, the ripple current
seen by the filter capacitors and batteries could be minimized by
creative overlapping of that many PWM stages.

Exactly! Each bar in a commutator only has to carry the full current very briefly, as it passes under a brush. That's how they can survive. In effect, you have a large number of small switches sharing the load.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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