EV Digest 7003
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electricity Book
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: White Zombie 11s in 07
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) voltage sag
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: White Zombie 11s in 07
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Prius Electronics
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Honda Civic Crankshaft?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: voltage sag
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Electricity Book
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Honda Civic Crankshaft?
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Dead Batteries
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) re:Digest 7000
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) The prius A/C controller
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: voltage sag
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: weight savings
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Has anyone tried using several starter motors modified for cooling and
hence continuos use as primary motors fo an ev?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electricity Book
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Electricity Book
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Electricity Book
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) At last! My conversion to LiIon is complete!
by Nikki Bloomfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Has anyone tried using several starter motors modified for [snip]
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Conversion Classes in The Bay?
by Larry Cronk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Datsun conversion progress
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Honda Civic Crankshaft?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:
Tesla Roadster Battery Pack)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Got Amps
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: weight savings
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The best book I know of is "Getting Started in Electronics" by Forrest Mims,
simple, fun, and you retain it. I've taught many people electronics using
this awesome book!
http://www.forrestmims.com/
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 2:53 PM
Subject: Electricity Book
I am wondering if anyone here knows of any good books about
electricity that cover from the real basics to electronic components?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
please. sounds like you are in charge of cleaning his ears for wax too
so it's not exactly a stretch to think you might know the price.
certainly not a stretch to think that you could find out within a 10
second quarter mile
Jim Husted wrote:
I'm the motor guy, you're barking up the wrong tree,
again! LMAO!!
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
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--- Begin Message ---
forgive my novicedom, but thinking about the issue of
voltage sag; could a controller be built such that it
could draw from a extra battery to off set the voltage
sag?
for example if you had a 100v pack but it sagged to
88v under full load could the controller then tap an
extra battery to bring the voltage back up to 100v?
or would this be to hard, unnecessary or not worth it
to have that extra battery [which could be smaller
than the pack batteries]?
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> --- Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I just love being right :)
>> what will they cost and where does he get them?
>> and please no secrecy bullshit
>
> I'm the motor guy, you're barking up the wrong tree,
> again! LMAO!!
He doesn't have much choice. He's managed to insult/piss off just about
everyone else on the list so there aren't many people, besides you, left
that even read his posts let alone respond.
I'm sure it's just a matter of time before he insults those few of you
left and then nobody will read his crap anymore.
In the mean time, can I suggest that if you feel a need to respond to him,
that you do it privately? That way the rest of us won't be getting his
shit second-hand?
I can filter out him, but when you respond to him on the list it gets by
my simple filters, he's not worth the effort to set up more complicated
ones.
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--- Begin Message ---
I am wanting to put A/C in my EV.
I have decided that the 2nd gen prius system is the way to go. It runs
off of the pack the motor sees 201.6V 3phase AC and is buried in the
inverter.
I wanted to know if I could extract that part of the inverter out and if
it will run on the 288V pack I have.
I found this:
http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/ginv/index.html
Others may find this interesting to. I really like the way these(and
ford, and brusa) implement their water cooling.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
It sounds like you still haven't followed the link
(below, then to my journal). The ADC motors come with
pre-drilled holes. You don't get to "choose" where to
advance to.
peace,
CAREFUL! Some Advanced DC motors are NOT pre-drilled for the proper
advance on Honda style installs. My XP-1263 was destroyed that
way. The standard 8" I have now had to be custom drilled by John
Wayland to get it right. The X-1263 is with Jim Husted as a way back
burner project that will someday be returned to life.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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--- Begin Message ---
If you have an extra battery, let it pull it's own weight all the time.
Use a 108V pack instead of a 102V for instance.
Trying to swap in an extra battery would require large, expensive
contactors, extra control circuitry and a separate charger, since the
extra battery wouldn't be discharged to the same level as the others.
Way to much hassle. Much easier to just run a higher voltage pack (if you
can afford the extra weight/space and your controller can handle the
voltage).
> forgive my novicedom, but thinking about the issue of
> voltage sag; could a controller be built such that it
> could draw from a extra battery to off set the voltage
> sag?
>
> for example if you had a 100v pack but it sagged to
> 88v under full load could the controller then tap an
> extra battery to bring the voltage back up to 100v?
>
> or would this be to hard, unnecessary or not worth it
> to have that extra battery [which could be smaller
> than the pack batteries]?
>
> Albuquerque, NM
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
> http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who
> knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The best books for earning any subject on for the youngest people.
They are specifically written for good understanding and they build
concepts from the ground up using analogy instead of jargon.
They also have good simplied illustrations for the concepts.
They are almost always betters to statt with than more advanced books
which use jargon after having introduced it only 1 paragrapgh ago and
are usually not written for comprehension but reputation.
On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 10:11 pm, David Roden wrote:
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This may sounds stupid, but I'm asking anyway!
Does the ADC 9'' motor rotate in the same direction as the Honda
Civic's engine? (which is clockwise looking from the transmission end)
On 7/8/07, Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Bob Bath wrote:
>It sounds like you still haven't followed the link
>(below, then to my journal). The ADC motors come with
>pre-drilled holes. You don't get to "choose" where to
>advance to.
>peace,
CAREFUL! Some Advanced DC motors are NOT pre-drilled for the proper
advance on Honda style installs. My XP-1263 was destroyed that
way. The standard 8" I have now had to be custom drilled by John
Wayland to get it right. The X-1263 is with Jim Husted as a way back
burner project that will someday be returned to life.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
I have many well over the 36 to 48 hours you suggest and I checked this
and my junk/trash folders first.
This started on 6/13 with digest 6880 missing and is getting more
frequent. If that helps narrow it down. Before then they may be out of
order, but that is all.
Most likely my ISP needs to be gotten rid of. (earthlink)
(My email goes suspiciously silent on thursday afternoons then a I get a
shitload on the monday that follows., like they turn up the aggresive
bouncer knob fro the weekend then turn it back down on monday LOL)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like the 100Amp dc and the 3phase A/C both operate off of the 200
to 500Volt internal DC Bus. This means they can handle my higher pack
voltage.
It just remains to be seen if it can be run with just the A/C controller
and not the rest of the car's electronics.
Maybe they will become avail at wrecking yards in near future, helofa
dc-dc!
Perhaps some hacking gets us a charger out of the deal. (Bidirectional
Z-boost inverter)
very compact design.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dale,
The voltage sag of a battery depends on many factors. Too low voltage, high
ampere, low rpm, high EV weight ratio to the gear ratio, the design of the
motor controller and tires.
Lets say a motor is a 90 volt motor, than it should be design for a over
voltage of a 120 volt pack that is charge up to 150 volts maximum to run it
effectively. At the design maximum load, the battery pack could sag to about
90 volts, where the motor will still not under the design voltage of the
motor.
This would be about 9 volts per battery.
Take the case of my EV design that was done. Many gears ratios range from
3.90:1 to 5.57:1 was use to find the right differential ratios that combine
with the transmission ratios of 3.5:1 to 1.75:1.
A motor was selected at a rating of 165 volts at 32 hp that is design to run
on a 180 battery pack that is normally charge to 225 volts which could run
at that voltage if the motor was directly connected to the motor without a
controller.
The controller Low Battery Limit is set at 160 volts which you note is 5
volts lower than the motor voltage rating.
Using a controller like a Zilla, the battery voltage is reduce and the
ampere is increase to the motor at about a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio. I could add
more batteries up to a battery charge voltage of 300 volts on my Zilla,
which will increase the range, but still will not reduce the watt per mile
or ampere-hour use.
To test out if the EV is design with the correct size motor, controller type
and battery type, the following test was done on my EV by the designers:
The EV on a level grade, put the transmission in 1st gear and press the
accelerator all the way. The motor amps should not go over 100 amps more
than the design motor amp rating of 200 amps which will be about a maximum
of 300 amps.
During about midway of the acceleration rpm, the motor ampere should peak
out and then the ampere should start to reduce as you get to the maximum rpm
of the motor.
If you do not get this reduction of motor ampere, then your design is not at
the optimum efficiency for maximum range.
Shift at the maximum rpm of the motor and see if you get the same results in
the next gear.
Just add more batteries to your battery pack to the maximum battery pack
charge voltage design of your motor controller.
To monitor your motor and battery pack, it is best to use a motor amp meter,
a motor volt meter, a battery pack amp meter, a battery pack volt meter, and
motor rpm indicator.
Using separate indicators, you can see what is happening all at once.
I added six more indicators on my EV since I listed it in the EV Album:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "dale henderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 10:36 AM
Subject: voltage sag
> forgive my novicedom, but thinking about the issue of
> voltage sag; could a controller be built such that it
> could draw from a extra battery to off set the voltage
> sag?
>
> for example if you had a 100v pack but it sagged to
> 88v under full load could the controller then tap an
> extra battery to bring the voltage back up to 100v?
>
> or would this be to hard, unnecessary or not worth it
> to have that extra battery [which could be smaller
> than the pack batteries]?
>
> Albuquerque, NM
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
> http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who
> knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone tried using several starter motors modified for cooling and
hence continuos use as primary motors fo an ev?
It seems like adding cooling to them might be a cheaper way to get a
durable mass manufactureed (hence cheap) tough electric motor that can
be used continuosly instead of just intermittently/
Has anyone thought of this or tried it?
On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 12:34 am, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I don't know. My system would be more expensive, but
I think would weigh less and provide significant
performance (range and cycle life) over Optima 31s or
parallel strings of YT.
I don't see how. Even with the lower discharge rates, the flooded 12V
batts won't last as long as well maintained AGMs. The A123s have a
much
higher cycle life, except you are cycling them multiple times on each
trip, so that pretty much cancels out. They might las twice as long as
AGMs, but then they cost 8X as much per WH (not counting the required
balancing circuitry).
The small gain in capacity you get for the 12V Lead-Acid is used up in
the
charge efficiency of the A123s. I don't know what the charge
efficiency
of A123s is, but it can't be better than 80-90%.
You don't say which 12V deep cycle you are talking about, let's assume
it's the Trojan SCS200. That weighs about 60 lbs and at the 1hr
discharge
rate is good for about 700-750 Whrs.
10 of these would be about 7.5 KWhrs, plus the ~1Khr for the A123s
gives
you a total of 8.5 KWhrs (to 100% DoD) and total weight of about 625
lbs.
This will NOT give you 60 miles of range, unless you have an incredibly
aerodynamic car, or you drive slowly. And of course, at 100% DoD your
flooded 12V batts won't last a year.
Note the 8.5 KWhr figure assumes that you do NOT charge the A123s from
the
floodeds. If you do charge them, then you'd have even less energy
available due to the charge efficiency of the A123s.
Used the way you propose, the total energy available (to 100% DoD) will
probably be between 7.5-8 KWhrs
8.5 KWhrs (@ 100% DoD) worth of Optima Grp 31s would weigh about 250
lbs
more. 8 KWhrs worth would be less than 200 lbs more.
This extra weight is fairly low compared to the total weight of the
car.
The Optimas will also prove a MUCH peppier ride than the floodeds even
when backed up with 96V worth of A123s.
You could also replace the pack of Optimas two or three times for the
extra cost of the A123s and supporting circuitry.
I think so at least. Of course what you are
recommending is simpler and I definnately considered
it. But, I am looking for a pack that can do 50 - 60
miles and 2500 cycles, and weighs about the same as 14
golf cart batts ....
Gel cells will do 2500 cycles if loaded light like
this ...
2 parallel strings of optimas - 30 - 35 miles, 600
cycles (maybe)
Don't know about Group 31.
I don't see any way to make that happen with any kind
of Optimas. If it would, I'd buy them. I also don't
see any way to make it work with golf cart batts.
Even 14 T-875's will only get me about 25 miles, and
maybe 500 - 700 cycles absolute max.
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's
updated
for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone tried using several starter motors modified for cooling and
hence continuos use as primary motors fo an ev?
It seems like adding cooling to them might be a cheaper way to get a
durable mass manufactureed (hence cheap) tough electric motor that can
be used continuosly instead of just intermittently/
Has anyone thought of this or tried it?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Search the archives at www.projectgutenberg.org
Everything is free and over 100,000 books for download.
Also archive.org has free video. Search there too.
On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 9:31 am, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
My all time favorite is the ARRL Handbook, you can buy it on Amazon.com
or
check it out from your local library (I've yet to find a library that
doesn't have it).
It starts out simple and works it's way up. It's geared for radio
communications, but the basics are the same for all electronics. You
can
skip the section on Tubes and, if you're not interested in
transmitters/receivers, pretty much everything after it covers basic
amplifiers amplifiers.
They publish an updated version every year, so if you buy one it's
pretty
much guaranteed to be up to date.
I am wondering if anyone here knows of any good
books about
electricity that cover from the real basics to
electronic components?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also don't forget to searcg google video and also youtube for free
government training films on "how electricity works"
On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 9:31 am, (-Phil-) wrote:
The best book I know of is "Getting Started in Electronics" by Forrest
Mims, simple, fun, and you retain it. I've taught many people
electronics using this awesome book!
http://www.forrestmims.com/
-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 2:53 PM
Subject: Electricity Book
I am wondering if anyone here knows of any good books about
electricity that cover from the real basics to electronic components?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a $7 dvd containing public domain films on electricity.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Electrical-Elctricity-Films-DVD_W0QQitemZ180137678363QQihZ008QQcategoryZ617QQcmdZViewItem
On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 9:31 am, (-Phil-) wrote:
The best book I know of is "Getting Started in Electronics" by Forrest
Mims, simple, fun, and you retain it. I've taught many people
electronics using this awesome book!
http://www.forrestmims.com/
-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 2:53 PM
Subject: Electricity Book
I am wondering if anyone here knows of any good books about
electricity that cover from the real basics to electronic components?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks!
I finally got that wonderful smile today which comes from knowing
you've done some good quality work on your EV.
I started to convert my 98 City El to lithium Ion batteries last
week. I've been working with the 100AH Thundersky cells (12 of them)
and a fully integrated BMS system from Reap Systems. With over 40 odd
wires to install in a custom loom then heat skrinked into four parts
and installed in the car I was really quite happy today when I
finally hooked up that serial connection to an old laptop, added
power to the BMS and started to charge.
It works!
There's one hiccup which I need to fix tomorrow but it is a simple
case of me incorrectly wiring one relay out of place on a discharge
safety circuit. It will prevent the car from going if there's
something seriously wrong with the car. I've checked and can use it
temporarily with it disconnected.
Anyway - if you guys would like to view my flickr page at http://
flickr.com/photos/aminorjourney/sets/72157600628045492/ you can see
the progress on the car.
I've also got a forum discussion online at the BVS forums at http://
flickr.com/photos/aminorjourney/sets/72157600628045492/
Nikki.
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--- Begin Message ---
The mention of using automotive starter motors reminded me of something I
posted here about 6 years ago.
(BTW, starter motors generally have bushings and not bearings and the design
is very inefficient and their lifespan is generally measured in minutes or
hours of use. These are some of the things that make them impractical for EV
use.)
Anyway... the old timers on the list may remember this, but maybe some of
the newer folks will appreciate it.
Enjoy!-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/fringengineer.html
GWMobile wrote:
Has anyone tried using several starter motors modified for cooling and
hence continuos use as primary motors fo an ev?
It seems like adding cooling to them might be a cheaper way to get a
durable mass manufactureed (hence cheap) tough electric motor that can
be used continuosly instead of just intermittently/
Has anyone thought of this or tried it?
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com
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Hi to all,
Well, I got the engine and transmission out of the '66 wagon today.
Seriously, it may have been easier to pull the oil pan and just
remove the engine. I just love the center link being between the oil
pan sump and bell housing. It works so well with the need to lower
the back of the tranny quite a bit to clear the shifter linkage built
into the top of the tranny.
I'll get some pictures up of the engine and tranny pretty soon. When
I do I'll be back to ask if anyone recognizes the bell housing
pattern. I'm guessing its already available if I just know what to
ask for. Trying to look up every old Datsun isn't very easy so I hope
some of you can help me narrow it down. Any specific picture requests?
With the motor out I was able to determine that an ADC 9 inch motor
will not fit, the front crossmember is not being very cooperative.
Even an 8 inch diameter motor is going to be closer to the
crossmember than the oil pan was by about 3/8th inch. Anyone know
what the actual outside diameter of an ADC 8 inch motor is? Don't
laugh, I found that the Prestolite MTC-4001 motor is only 7 inch in
diameter. Another one of those old Prestolite motors is also an
option, but I'd have to find one first.
Last news on this front is that I will not be able to run a Zilla
with an inductive throttle unless there are alternatives to the "go
pedal" Otmar sells. As soon as I go just far enough to the left to
eliminate interference with the E-brake the throttle pedal is just
slightly behind the brake pedal. Not real functional!
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Absolutely. Otherwise, you'd get 4 speeds in reverse,
and one forward.
(;-p
--- "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This may sounds stupid, but I'm asking anyway!
>
> Does the ADC 9'' motor rotate in the same direction
> as the Honda
> Civic's engine? (which is clockwise looking from the
> transmission end)
>
> On 7/8/07, Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Bob Bath wrote:
> > >It sounds like you still haven't followed the
> link
> > >(below, then to my journal). The ADC motors come
> with
> > >pre-drilled holes. You don't get to "choose"
> where to
> > >advance to.
> > >peace,
> >
> >
> > CAREFUL! Some Advanced DC motors are NOT
> pre-drilled for the proper
> > advance on Honda style installs. My XP-1263 was
> destroyed that
> > way. The standard 8" I have now had to be custom
> drilled by John
> > Wayland to get it right. The X-1263 is with Jim
> Husted as a way back
> > burner project that will someday be returned to
> life.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike Chancey,
> > '88 Civic EV
> > Kansas City, Missouri
> > EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> > My Electric Car at:
> http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> > Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> > Join the EV List at:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
> >
> > In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate,
> not the extreme
> > position. (Horace)
> >
> >
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you use decent quality cells, you can parallel them with no
worries. Crappy cells are going to be more trouble than the money you
might save. You will spend a lot of time and money on the BMS for
crappy "flame-thrower" type cells because for safety reasons you must
protect them over heating, over voltage, and under voltage.
If you pay more for the cells, and use high-quality FePo
cells, then many of your BMS complications go away. The BMS becomes
much, much less critical to because the cells don't burst into flames
if they are mistreated in some minor way.
You would be smartest to build a small pack (like for a
scooter, or small motorcycle) and try out your ideas on a small,
inexpensive, scale. Why trash a huge expensive pack to just to learn
a lesson (or two)?
Bill Dube'
At 09:45 AM 7/5/2007, you wrote:
I'm doing something similar, and one suggestion thrown around on
this list was to fuse each sell, so that if one failed short, it
would just be taken out of the "set" of 23 in parallel. Fuse would
be via a properly sized nickel welded tab. But someone pointed out
that failure could be via reduced capacity, or as a resister instead
of a short. Basically reducing one module of 23 cells. You'd have to
monitor this and manually remove the offending cell before the other
22 parallel cells are destroyed. Or monitor each cell and remove the
offending cell from the circuit. Another idea thrown around was to
monitor cells in series, maybe 4 in series, you'd get out of balance
conditions in those 4 cells, but that would reduce the number of
cells you'd need to monitor. Well, not sure what is the best method,
each one seems like a compromise except monitoring each cell.
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2007 8:54:38 AM
Subject: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:
Tesla Roadster Battery Pack)
Speaking of battery packs..
It seems ThunderSky's prices have gone up about 25% in the last 2
months, which means they've lost most of their cost advantage over
PHET (and others), and with all this talk of dodgy business
practices, it's given me reason for pause.
So once again I'm entertaining the idea of building a pack from
18650s (yes, what a lot of work..!)
I believe the Tesla pack has modules of 99 cells in series, with 23
of these modules connected in parallel. So no single cells are
explicitly paralleled, and if capacities don't match exactly well
it's averaged out over the 99. Great way to do it.
But this requires BMS monitoring of each cell individually, which is
just too much work for me!
So can anyone think of any showstopper problems with just hooking up
modules of 23 cells in parallel, and then wiring 99 of the modules
together in series. Then I'd only have 99 voltage levels to monitor.
(My actual numbers would be different but I'm using Tesla's numbers
for comparison.)
Seems to me the biggest problem would be the lowest common
denominator effect, i.e the groups of 23 would only be as good as the
weakest cell. Oh and if one cell shorted out, that could be rather
catastrophic I guess.
Thoughts?
-Ian
On 05/07/2007, at 11:19 PM, Joseph T. wrote:
> The Tesla Roadster battery pack has 6,831 cells. The Tesla Roadster,
> I've heard, is supposed to be 375 volts. Hmm...Lithium Ion batteries
> are rated at 3.6 nominal voltage. So....3.6 volts times 6,831 cells
> obviously doesn't equal 375 volts!!! What's going on here?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No. Peukert is not involved at all. That predicts battery discharge time.
Not terminal voltage.
Pack loaded voltage = Pack open circuit voltage + ( Pack Resistance * Pack
Current )
Where Pack Current is negative when discharging.
All you need to calculate Pack Resistance is the Pack Voltage at two current
test points. Typically, these would be at 100% power and 10% power on the
controller.
For example: in your case, the pack may be at 127 volts at 30 amps and 100
volts at 300 amps.
Pack Resistance = (change in voltage ) / ( change in current )
27 V / 270 A = 0.100 ohms
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 3:42 AM
Subject: Re: Got Amps
> Ah. I figured the calculation must be more complex than I had
portrayed.
> Is there any way to estimate the voltage sag without actual
> empirical numbers from the vehicle involved? I'm guessing this is
> where Peukert's Exponent comes in but I do not know how to apply it.
>
> On 7/8/07, Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You need to subtract the sag of the battery pack before you multiply by
the
> > current.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 4:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: Got Amps
> >
> >
> > > I checked out his evalbum entry at
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/371.html.
> > > It says the car has a 128V pack (I'm assuming it's the same car! ;)
> > >
> > > 128V * 25A= 3.2KW @35mph, or 6.4KW at 50A.
> > >
> > > I *think* this yields between 90 and 180 Wh/mile, but I am not at all
> > > sure that I've done the calculation correctly.
> > >
> > > If so, those seem to be pretty impressive efficiency numbers.
> > >
> > > On 7/7/07, Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Rich-
> > > >
> > > > 25 -50 amps at 35 mph sounds very good.
> > > >
> > > > What is your pack voltage?
> > > > I would be interested to know how many watts you use at that speed,
> > also.
> > > >
> > > > Phil
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > > > >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > > > >Subject: Got Amps
> > > > >Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 14:52:21 -0400
> > > > >
> > > > >My new ammeter arrived this week and I installed it this morning.
> > > > >
> > > > >Now I'll be able to record my consumption at various speeds, try
> > different
> > > > >driving styles and generally have an indicator of how hard I'm
pounding
> > my
> > > > >batteries, controller and motor.
> > > > >
> > > > >It was a trick to hook up though. Lol..you gotta love a "used" EV
where
> > you
> > > > >puzzle out the PO's wiring scheme. Turns out that the ammeter wires
run
> > > > >from the shunt, through a 12v relay to the meter. I finally found
the
> > > > >relay, wires, and a keyswitch 12v source to hook everything up.
> > > > >
> > > > >I haven't had a reason to get out on the highway yet, but I have
> > learned
> > > > >that I only draw 25-50 amps cruising at 35 mph in my E-Beetle. Soon
> > I'll
> > > > >have stats on cruising to work at 55, and 65 mph, as well as the
return
> > > > >trip. I suspect my rates of consumption are different due to an
overall
> > > > >uphill trend on the way to work. Then I'll be able to figure out my
> > KW's
> > > > >and all that.
> > > > >
> > > > >Thanks to EA for getting it to me!
> > > > >
> > > > >Rich A.
> > > > >
> > > > >_________________________________________________________________
> > > > >http://newlivehotmail.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > >
> >
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure, bar stool racers and go-carts often use starter motors. Mostly
because the people building them are more interested in cheap than they
are in longevity or efficiency.
I don't think anyone would build a full size EV using them, they are too
small, too inefficient, and have too short an expected lifespan.
.
> Has anyone tried using several starter motors modified for cooling and
> hence continuos use as primary motors fo an ev?
>
> It seems like adding cooling to them might be a cheaper way to get a
> durable mass manufactureed (hence cheap) tough electric motor that can
> be used continuosly instead of just intermittently/
>
> Has anyone thought of this or tried it?
>
>
> On Sun, 8 Jul 2007 12:34 am, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know. My system would be more expensive, but
>>> I think would weigh less and provide significant
>>> performance (range and cycle life) over Optima 31s or
>>> parallel strings of YT.
>>
>> I don't see how. Even with the lower discharge rates, the flooded 12V
>> batts won't last as long as well maintained AGMs. The A123s have a
>> much
>> higher cycle life, except you are cycling them multiple times on each
>> trip, so that pretty much cancels out. They might las twice as long as
>> AGMs, but then they cost 8X as much per WH (not counting the required
>> balancing circuitry).
>>
>> The small gain in capacity you get for the 12V Lead-Acid is used up in
>> the
>> charge efficiency of the A123s. I don't know what the charge
>> efficiency
>> of A123s is, but it can't be better than 80-90%.
>>
>> You don't say which 12V deep cycle you are talking about, let's assume
>> it's the Trojan SCS200. That weighs about 60 lbs and at the 1hr
>> discharge
>> rate is good for about 700-750 Whrs.
>> 10 of these would be about 7.5 KWhrs, plus the ~1Khr for the A123s
>> gives
>> you a total of 8.5 KWhrs (to 100% DoD) and total weight of about 625
>> lbs.
>> This will NOT give you 60 miles of range, unless you have an incredibly
>> aerodynamic car, or you drive slowly. And of course, at 100% DoD your
>> flooded 12V batts won't last a year.
>> Note the 8.5 KWhr figure assumes that you do NOT charge the A123s from
>> the
>> floodeds. If you do charge them, then you'd have even less energy
>> available due to the charge efficiency of the A123s.
>> Used the way you propose, the total energy available (to 100% DoD) will
>> probably be between 7.5-8 KWhrs
>>
>> 8.5 KWhrs (@ 100% DoD) worth of Optima Grp 31s would weigh about 250
>> lbs
>> more. 8 KWhrs worth would be less than 200 lbs more.
>> This extra weight is fairly low compared to the total weight of the
>> car.
>> The Optimas will also prove a MUCH peppier ride than the floodeds even
>> when backed up with 96V worth of A123s.
>>
>> You could also replace the pack of Optimas two or three times for the
>> extra cost of the A123s and supporting circuitry.
>>
>>>
>>> I think so at least. Of course what you are
>>> recommending is simpler and I definnately considered
>>> it. But, I am looking for a pack that can do 50 - 60
>>> miles and 2500 cycles, and weighs about the same as 14
>>> golf cart batts ....
>>>
>>> Gel cells will do 2500 cycles if loaded light like
>>> this ...
>>>
>>> 2 parallel strings of optimas - 30 - 35 miles, 600
>>> cycles (maybe)
>>>
>>> Don't know about Group 31.
>>>
>>> I don't see any way to make that happen with any kind
>>> of Optimas. If it would, I'd buy them. I also don't
>>> see any way to make it work with golf cart batts.
>>> Even 14 T-875's will only get me about 25 miles, and
>>> maybe 500 - 700 cycles absolute max.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________________________________
>>> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's
>>> updated
>>> for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
>>> http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
>> whatever I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
