EV digest 7022

[Electric Vehicle Discussion List]

                            EV Digest 7022

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Ideal conversion candidate? Aussies are Lucky.
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) RE: Wayland Invt'l, KillaCycle on the road
        by "Matt Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) NEXT
        by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: One question of many
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) RE: NEXT
        by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) 80 % discharge voltage
        by Jerry Wagner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: NEXT
        by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Short Range Battery Pack
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Opinion on Brammo Enertia bike?
        by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Wayland Invt'l, KillaCycle on the road
        by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Blower on Motor
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) RE: Electric Evette
        by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Battery Boxes and Heating
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: powering 12v cooling fan from pack voltage
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Optimum Brush Advance for Acceleration & top end
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Opinion on Brammo Enertia bike?
        by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: New guy seeking knowledge
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: EV digest 7021
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Edward Holsinger)
 19) Re: Battery Boxes and Heating
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Blower on Motor
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: powering 12v cooling fan from pack voltage
        by Thomas Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Con't-New guy seeking knowledge
        by Eco Performance <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Opinion on Brammo Enertia bike?
        by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: EV digest 7021
        by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: EV digest 7021
        by "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) RE: Con't-New guy seeking knowledge
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: Battery Boxes and Heating
        by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) Yahoo! Auto Response
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 29) Re: Yahoo! Auto Response
        by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 30) Re: Yahoo! Auto Response
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 31) Re: Electric Evette
        by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

--- Begin Message ---

dunno on the utes, but their pickups have really stiff springs.  The
new ford courier's there (about the same as a ford ranger here) has a
3,000lbs payload, compared to 1300lbs for the US ranger....  we like
soft ride here over payload I guess....

Z

On 7/10/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I just spent a couple weeks down under and noticed that Australia has a
large number of what are probably the perfect conversion candidates.
I think they call them "Utes".

For us Yanks, imagine a modern day version of an El Camino.  Small pickup
trucks with car like styling; low to the ground, small frontal area,
aerodynamic shape.  They even have extended cab versions.

I don't know what kind of load capabilty they have, but it's got to be
better than your average car.





--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com

CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders

Quotable Quote

"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."

Wendell Berry

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

. . .and John has had it in for Jim ever since that moment! Didn't the
entire wait staff of the restaurant come over to serenade John, or is that
just my wild imagination mis-remembering details?

Wish I could be there for all the excitement this weekend. I know it'll be a
lot of fun!

Matt Graham
Joule Injected Nissan 240SX

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dube
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:03 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Wayland Invt'l, KillaCycle on the road

The KillaCycle team is about 1/3 of the way to the NEDRA Wayland 
Invitational EV Drag Race! We should arrive in Portland this evening 
(Thursday.) The spare A123 Systems pack is all charged up, packed 
away in the trailer, eagerly waiting to show its stuff in the White 
Zombie. Steve Ciciora make a special effort to build and install a 
brand new upgraded BMS for it so that John would get the maximum
performance.

We are on the border of Wyoming and Utah. Rebecca, the KillaCycle 
"Road Princess" is with me and is learning how to drive the rig and 
about the care and feeding of the KillaCycle.

        Until this point, we have had to regretfully turn down most requests

to display the KillaCycle because we have all been so busy making the 
bike go faster (and earning the money to make the bike go faster.) 
Now that we have our very own "Road Princess" we can get to bike to 
trade shows, alternative energy events, and car shows.

        Of course, we all must keep in mind that Rebecca is the KillaCycle 
"Road Princess" not to be confused with the original "EV Princess." 
We must give full credit (and deservedly so,) to John Wayland for 
holding the official title of "EV Princess."

        Jim Husted "crowned" John as the EV Princess one year ago in a 
semi-private ceremony in a crowded  restaurant in Joliet IL. During 
the coronation, as John received the title EV Princess, there wasn't 
a wet eye in the house. At that moment, and ever since that day, we 
all knew that no one deserved the honor of the title "Princess" more 
than John. :-)

        Bill Dube'

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Well this is my next question.

The Motor I bought after firing it up has a wobble .. 

So I wonder if this will keep it from working.. I am about to mount it to
the transmission of my car.. After it is bolted down good I do not think 
that it will be able to wobble even if it wants to.. .. But I wonder if it
will even run if it wants to wobble and can not ..
 

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

You are going to want something.  Either a manual rack, or an
electrically driven power steering pump.   I converted a VW rabbit to
diesel, and removed the power steering pump when I did it.  It's very
hard to parallel park now, but fine on the highway.   My old manual
steering truck is fine -- not 'easy' to parallel park, but way easier
than a  car that's supposed to have power steering, and doesn't.  The
big difference is that a manual steering rack takes more turns from
lock to lock (the old manual steering dumptrucks from the 50's were
often 10 or 15 turns from lock to lock, compared to like 4 for modern
cars), and also, if you look, the steering wheel is usually a larger
diameter wheel, so you have more torque on it.

Z

On 7/12/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hello Tehben,

I have run the power steering unit three different ways.  One was a 180 volt
motor-generator that ran off the main battery pack, which supply 14.5 VDC at
30 amps and also power the power steering and a vacuum pump at the same
time.

The next one was turning all the accessories units with a belt drive off the
pilot shaft of the motor.

The last and still being use is a electric power steering unit and electric
motors for each accessory unit, plus the pilot shaft of the motor can engage
thru a electric clutch during the time the EV goes into regen braking, which
still provides power to the all the accessories unit, while the motor and
battery amps are at 0 amps.

I do not see any difference in the motor amperes and voltage between the
belted method and the electric motor method.

The main battery pack ampere goes up about 8 amps average using all the
electric motor drives.  The motor ampere is still reads about 200 amps at 45
mph in both cases.

When you use a separate motor drive of the battery pack, make sure you come
off the load side of the main battery amp meter shunt, or your E meter will
not record the total ampere use.    I use a another amp meter shunt for the
accessory drive motors, so I can see what the actual main motor ampere-hour
requires that is recorded in the E-meter.

The most efficient way for me, is to electric drive all the accessories
units and then while coast down to a stop or down a hill, the motor electric
clutch unit engages the drive units at the same time the accessories motors
go off line.  At that time, all my accessories unit are still running and my
motor and main batteries are reading 0 amps.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: One question of many


> Would it be terribly inefficient to run the ICE power steering pump
> with a small electric motor instead of using an OEM electric unit?
>
>
> --
> Tehben
> '90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
> 'hElix EV'
> evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
>
>

--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com

CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders

Quotable Quote

"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."

Wendell Berry

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Some electric motors do not have a bearing that supports the output
shaft.  Maybe yours has a wobble because of this. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Phelps
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 11:47
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: NEXT

Well this is my next question.

The Motor I bought after firing it up has a wobble .. 

So I wonder if this will keep it from working.. I am about to mount it
to the transmission of my car.. After it is bolted down good I do not
think that it will be able to wobble even if it wants to.. .. But I
wonder if it will even run if it wants to wobble and can not ..
 

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

I have a question about 80% DOD voltage for my traction pack.  I am using 24 
Deca GC-15 6 volt golf cart batteries in my S-10 pickup (144 volt nominal).
I have an E-Meter to monitor voltage or amps drawn.
I am confused about the voltage reading while I am driving.  What is the lowest 
voltage I can go to while under load for the 80%?  And what would it be for 50% 
DOD?

Thanks,  Jerry Wagner

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

If I remember correctly you are using an aircraft
generator for a motor.  The wobble is therefore from
there being a solid motor shaft that is inserted into
a hollow motor shaft.  The two shafts are bolted
together in the back end of the motor, and the front
end of the motor usually has a rubber bushing between
the two shafts, or just a clutch type pressure plate
(large discs just behind the splined output shaft)
that allows the solid shaft to float.  I suggest
replacing the rubber bushing with a solid brass
collar, or bolt the two disc rings together to make
the output shaft solid.  If you are going to use this
motor with a pressure plate and clutch, you best to
something to solidify those two shafts for sure.  

--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well this is my next question.
> 
> The Motor I bought after firing it up has a wobble
> .. 


M. Barkley
   
  www.texomaev.com
   
  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1135

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

How many Ah's do I need for a small car to travel 10 miles on 144v
in moderate driving conditions?

Let's assume about 300 watthours per mile; that's typical for a small car that doesn't have any big problems like dragging brakes, soft tires, etc. Then 10 miles takes 10 x 300 = 3000 watthours. 3000 watthours / 144v = 20.8 amphours.

Now, 10 miles at 50 mph only takes 12 minutes or 0.2 hours. So, you need a battery that can supply at least 20.8 amphours at this rate. 20.8 amphours / 0.2 hours = 104 amps.

Batteries usually advertise their 20-hour capacity; their capacity at 12 minutes is considerably less. You'll have to dig to find the capacity specifications at different discharge rates for the particular battery you pick. But the 12-minute capacity will be on the order of 1/3rd of the 20-hour capacity. Thus you need about a 60 amphour battery at the 20-hour rate.

For example, the Surplus Center has some used Hawker SBS60/2 AGMs (item #11-3096) for $34.95 (but shipping costs almost as much). These deliver about 51 amphours at the 20-hour rate, and 27 amphours at the 15 minute rate. See:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007060214501508&item=11-3096&catname=electric

The next problem is battery life. If you size the battery to just barely be able to do your "mission" when brand new, they will be unable to do it as soon as they start to age. Taking 20.8ah from this 27ah battery is a 77% depth of discharge; they will only be able to do this for 100-200 cycles.

If instead, you pick a battery that can deliver 2 x 20.8 = 42ah at the 12-minute rate (a 50% depth of discharge), it will last more like 400-500 cycles.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

From: Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

and of course the $15K initial cost is hard to swallow. even the cheaper production run to

come later is still high for my taste.

I see two issues, technical and economic. Some
times they are related. Technically, it's certainly
possible to build or convert a motorcycle with
modern batteries for less than $15K. As one
poster has already noted, their batteries in his
existing sled would be good for a lot more
oomph.

Technically, if we look at the last great flowering
of EV use in the US (in 1898-1910), most of
those cars were making 30 miles at 20 miles per
hour -- which was considered to be as much as
any woman or physician would need in a day.
While there are some electric motorcycles out
there advertising speeds in excess of 45 mph,
most of the literature suggests that speeds of
20-25 mph will optimize the range. Yes, you
CAN find documentation that electric vehicles
were going as far as 110 miles on a charge in 1901,
but that was with fresh batteries and all the
way out to 100% DOD at speeds of 15 mph or
so. It's only a century later that we're starting
to do some desperately-needed development.

Economically, motorcycles in general are a niche
market -- and within the general class there is
another set of divisions: cruiser, sport, racing,
moto-X, supermotard, sport tour, adventure
tour, tour, chopper, naked, bobber, retro,
resto, standard, scooter, and the list goes on.
You have to consider that Enertia, while a
quite laudable idea, has to compete for share
against all the other motorcycles out there.

Just the idea of being on two wheels instead
of three or four seems to narrow down the
potential customers quite a bit. I'd say Brammo
needs to recoup their development costs from
a pretty small market, so they're striking a good
balance between cost and profit.

The EV market HAS to expand into delivering
turn-key products at prices interested persons
will pay. If you go back to the early literature,
as I have recently, you see that gasoline cars
were thought of as the niche market because
they took a large amount of arcane knowledge
and fiddling. The turn-key products in 1899 were
EVs.

We've lost a lot of development time along the
way in the last century, and that's going to have
to be made up. When I look at outfitting even
a fairly small adventure-tour bike, it'd cost me
$20K just to get it out the door and I'd still
have to buy gas and oil and would mainly ride
it to work. $15K for a bike when you factor in
the savings in gas alone begins to make it look
quite attractive.

We need the early adopters, the hotrodders,
the visionaries, the tinkerers, the activists and
the cranks. They're the only people who can
move this whole thing forward. The Enertia
is one of the first mainstream-oriented products
that looks like it's benefitting from some of the
work folks on the fringe have been doing. That's
a good thing in the larger sense, because the
average person who buys a vehicle as a commuter
or runabout wants to be assured that it will
start, run and stop when they want it to and
that they won't have to mess with it beyond
plugging it in at their destination.

Just my opinion.

Chuck

_________________________________________________________________

Fight Allergies With Live Search http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=Remedies+For+Spring+Allergies&mkt=en-ca&FORM=SERNEP
--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message --- Since racing is what we do best, we are going to race as much as possible this weekend. The PIR track is not open during the day on Saturday, and most folks will be doing a show and shine near PIR. We gave Woodburn a call and they have invited us to run the KillaCycle on Saturday, during the day!

We will be running the bike tonight at PIR, and Saturday night at PIR, just as planned. :-)

        Bill Dube'

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Evan Tuer wrote:

Just a thought, it might be possible to use the voltage drop across
the field winding to run a fan directly - a well isolated (plastic)
low voltage fan might work well, depending on the motor.

The DC voltage across the field of a series motor is less than 1 volt. But the AC voltage (with a PWM controller switching) is a large fraction of the total pack voltage! And, it is at the switching frequency of the controller, often 15-20 KHz. In either case, you are unlikely to find a motor that can run directly on it.

Using a current transformer may not be suitable for some vehicles (my
own included) which reach "full on" (100% PWM) fairly quickly - then
the fan would be doing nothing while the motor is at full power.

Yes; but I was assuming the motor has an internal fan as well. At high speeds, the current draw is low and the internal fan is fine. At low speeds, current draw is high, RPM is low, so the internal fan is inadequate -- this is when the field-current-driven fan would work.

And of course both ideas suffer from the problem that it's not as
effective at cooling as a continuously running fan - the motor is not
being cooled off at all whilst coasting or stopping, so the duty cycle
will be reduced (or you'll overheat it, more likely).

Right; though again I was assuming an internal fan.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Tom,

I think you are missing several key points. Your position seems to be that your creation is so superior in every way to an EV conversion that to build anything else would be a waste of time. Holding ones work in high regard is reasonable, but to treat all others with disdain is not a way to win friends and influence people. It is quite probably that most conversions would have difficulty matching you projected battery percentage. I am sure however that this advantage has nothing to do with your two/three wheel configuration and everything to do with the fact you were able to start from scratch so to speak. I am quite confidant that your numbers could not only be matched but far exceeded while still maintaining a four wheel layout. Most of us are interested in owning and driving an electric car. Honestly, the Evette is kind of cool, but I can't imaging driving it year-round in real traffic and real weather. I can't tell from the pictures, but does it even have side windows? I mean, if we are going to throw all the creature comforts out in the name of max range, haven't we missed the point of traveling?

Have you actually driven the Evete with 1600 pounds of batteries in it?

Thanks,



Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html

In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Tehben Dean wrote:

Lee do you not have battery heaters? How do your EV's perform in the
winter? Minnesota gets pretty cold... right?

Right! We often get a week or so of below-zero weather, and I've seen temperatures here down to -30 deg.F.

All my previous EVs had heavily insulated battery boxes and flooded batteries, but without heaters. The normal waste heat from driving and charging kept them warm.

My current EV has AGMs, which produce less heat. My battery boxes have less room than I'd like for insulation (only 0.5" in spots). I also drive less now, so waste heat alone has been inadequate. I added a 75 watt heater to each battery box last winter, which proved sufficient.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Thomas Ward wrote:

what kind of AC SMPS will work on DC (assuming voltage is in range)?

Virtually all of them. The main difficulty is that some use a 2-diode 2-capacitor voltage doubler between the AC input and the internal DC/DC. You have to use one that does not have this configuration, or can be jumpered to avoid it. Supplies advertised as "120/240v jumper selectable" use a voltage doubler for 120vac input, and a regular bridge rectifier for 240vac input; set them for 240vac input.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Mark Hanson wrote:

I was curious if there was a RPM's vs timing advance chart for a series wound motor in a commuter car (not race car). I posted this a few days ago but I think it got lost in the ether.

No; there really isn't any simple chart that can do it justice. It is a complex issue having to do with the shape and magnetic materials, iron saturation characteristics, etc. so it varies considerably between motors.

The field distortion that requires brush advance is mostly related to *current*, not voltage. Voltage only matters to the extent that more voltage always means more arcing, regardless of the advance.

Your best bet is probably to do what Otmar once suggested; rig a camera and monitor so you can watch the brush arcing while driving, and adjust the timing to minimize it.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message --- Seems that most companies making an electric motorcycle are trying to cram batteries into a small frame with poor aerodynamics, a recipe for poor performance and range.

The aero on a standard upright motorcycle (even a faired one) is poor compared to a car. For better range, a recumbent frame with better aerodynamics is ideal, like the ecomobile. See http://www.ecomobile.com

Mike Sandman wrote:

http://www.enertiabike.com/

i am interested in this. i like the use of carbon fiber for strength and weight. the use of the valence lithium phosphate batteries seem hi-tech...hehe...though i don't like how high they are mounted. it does help keep the look not so boxy as other attempts. and of course the $15K initial cost is hard to swallow. even the cheaper production run to come later is still high for my taste.

what do others think?

mike sandman

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Eco Performance wrote:

I need help. I live in the rockies and feel there is a market for functional EV's. I dubbed them MUEV's (Mountain Utility EV). What I

picture is something that can seat 4 people, a dog, and some gear,
all-wheel drive, and have a good enough range and top speed to suit
all us ski bums with 20+ mile commutes to our jobs as servants to the
wealthy. I'm asking if you guys had any ideas on how to make this
affordable and how you'd design it in our situation.

My old ComutaVan was a good start at meeting this design criteria. It was basically a grown-up version of the old CitiCar. Aluminum pipe frame, with a pop-riveted-on ABS plastic body. Trailer springs, tires, and brakes. Series DC motor, 3-speed manual transmission, in a conventional front engine, rear drive setup. Twelve golf cart batteries and a primitive contactor controller; but it would do 55 mph and had a range of 50 miles at lower speeds.

Very simple, very crude, very ugly... but very cheap. They had a lot of quality control and poorly thought out engineering problems, but the basic design was sound.

How about building an updated version of it? I'd start by looking at Bill Towns "Hustler" for appearance. It is a very nice looking, but very simple body design, used for a British kit car. With electric motors, it would be easy to make it all-wheel drive. For example, use solid axles front and rear like a jeep, with a separate electric motor driving each one so there's no drive shaft.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

stop  your ev e-mail clutter 2 me NOW1

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Is the car parked in a garage or not?  I don't know about everyone
else, but I do not have a heated garage, and even if I did, I have
alot more important things to put in it than a car.   I know that I've
seen a few accounts of people driving EV's through the winter with no
heaters and it works just fine, but then at the end you find out they
are keeping it in a heated garage all night.....

On 7/13/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Tehben Dean wrote:
> Lee do you not have battery heaters? How do your EV's perform in the
> winter? Minnesota gets pretty cold... right?

Right! We often get a week or so of below-zero weather, and I've seen
temperatures here down to -30 deg.F.

All my previous EVs had heavily insulated battery boxes and flooded
batteries, but without heaters. The normal waste heat from driving and
charging kept them warm.

My current EV has AGMs, which produce less heat. My battery boxes have
less room than I'd like for insulation (only 0.5" in spots). I also
drive less now, so waste heat alone has been inadequate. I added a 75
watt heater to each battery box last winter, which proved sufficient.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com

CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders

Quotable Quote

"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."

Wendell Berry

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Markus Lorch wrote:

1) what happens when my controller is full on? The current in the
   motor loop will be DC with no interruptions right?

Right. The transformer just becomes two pieces of isolated copper wire.

My assumption was that the motor has an internal fan anyway. The internal fan works fine for higher RPM and lower currents. The external fan is to help it out, by providing cooling air at low RPM and high currents.

If your motor doesn't have an internal fan, then you could connect the isolated/rectified output from the current transformer in series with your 12v accessory battery. Use it to power a 24v blower. That way, the external blower runs at 12v with zero motor current (half speed), and speeds up as the controller supplies more current to the motor.

2) Don't the PC power supplies drive their transformers at much
   higher frequency to reduce size (I think all PC power supplies
   are switch mode, or are you talking about an old fashioned
   standard transformer?)

Switchmode power supplies usually run at 50-150 KHz. EV PWM controller usually run at 15-20 KHz. The power that a particular transformer can handle is proportional to frequency. So, if the power supply that you stole the tranformer from delivered 300 watts at 100 KHz, then it will deliver 60 watts at 20 KHz (1/5th the power at 1/5th the frequency).

Note that when a transformer's windings have DC on them, you have to include an air gap in the core or it will saturate. If the switching supply uses the "flyback" circuit (one transistor on the primary side, one diode on the secondary side), then its core already has that gap. If it's a forward converter (2 transistors on the primary size, 2 diodes on the secondary side), then you'll need to space the cores slightly apart to provide this gap.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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thanks Lee,

I have an SMPS with a 85-264V AC input (and no jumpers), is this likely to have a voltage doubler stage? If so it could be bypassed by identifying and connecting to the DC side of the bridge rectifier?

this is a picture of a very similar supply.
http://cubloc.com/product/01_08dp1724.php
Lee Hart wrote:

Thomas Ward wrote:

what kind of AC SMPS will work on DC (assuming voltage is in range)?

Virtually all of them. The main difficulty is that some use a 2-diode 2-capacitor voltage doubler between the AC input and the internal DC/DC. You have to use one that does not have this configuration, or can be jumpered to avoid it. Supplies advertised as "120/240v jumper selectable" use a voltage doubler for 120vac input, and a regular bridge rectifier for 240vac input; set them for 240vac input.

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*     This post contains a forbidden message format       *
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--- Begin Message --- But an enclosed motorcycle like the human powered bicycle races would be exceptional.

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:46 am, Eric Poulsen wrote:

Seems that most companies making an electric motorcycle are trying to cram batteries into a small frame with poor aerodynamics, a recipe for poor performance and range.

The aero on a standard upright motorcycle (even a faired one) is poor compared to a car. For better range, a recumbent frame with better aerodynamics is ideal, like the ecomobile. See http://www.ecomobile.com

Mike Sandman wrote:

http://www.enertiabike.com/

i am interested in this. i like the use of carbon fiber for strength and weight. the use of the valence lithium phosphate batteries seem hi-tech...hehe...though i don't like how high they are mounted. it does help keep the look not so boxy as other attempts. and of course the $15K initial cost is hard to swallow. even the cheaper production run to come later is still high for my taste.

what do others think?

mike sandman

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

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To resign from the list you have to unsubsrcibe.
You subscribed you know. You signed up for it.


On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:31 pm, Edward Holsinger wrote:

stop  your ev e-mail clutter 2 me NOW1

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

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Welcome to the Hotel California ;)

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Eco Performance wrote: 

> So, thank you for the input so far, and I shouldn't have been 
> so vague.  We're sticking with the saab because it is lighter 
> & more aero than suv's or trucks.  And yes, we plan on 
> lithium.  We're are looking at Altair, A123, Phet, or Thundersky.
> 
> We're dropping the saab onto a subaru drivetrain and using 
> four motors from salvaged priuses, & the batteries.  We may 
> also get some ultracaps from Maxwell.
> 
> We need a range of 60+ at 60mph.
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions???

You would be ~very~ lucky to pull off something like this for the $30K
you referred to earlier.  The guys you're working with will need to be
as brilliant as you suggested in your original post to have any hope of
making something like this work.  You are aware that the Prius motors
are AC and require matching controllers (probably one per motor) to
work, and that it is very unlikely that you will be able to convince a
Prius controller to do what you need?

I believe the Prius packs are about 6.5Ah @ 288V (ish), so even with 4
onboard it is not a sure thing that you can meet your goals, even if you
can figure out some way to get the motors to spin.

You'd be much better off assembling one complete hybrid drivetrain from
the 4 wrecked Priuii and "simply" transplanting that into the Subaru
AWD.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Yeah, I don't have a garage either. So I am wondering if just keeping
it plugged in with like an inch of blue foam insulating them will
work. Also I heard that AGMs run cooler than flooded, what about Gel?

On 7/13/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Is the car parked in a garage or not?  I don't know about everyone
else, but I do not have a heated garage, and even if I did, I have
alot more important things to put in it than a car.   I know that I've
seen a few accounts of people driving EV's through the winter with no
heaters and it works just fine, but then at the end you find out they
are keeping it in a heated garage all night.....

On 7/13/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tehben Dean wrote:
> > Lee do you not have battery heaters? How do your EV's perform in the
> > winter? Minnesota gets pretty cold... right?
>
> Right! We often get a week or so of below-zero weather, and I've seen
> temperatures here down to -30 deg.F.
>
> All my previous EVs had heavily insulated battery boxes and flooded
> batteries, but without heaters. The normal waste heat from driving and
> charging kept them warm.
>
> My current EV has AGMs, which produce less heat. My battery boxes have
> less room than I'd like for insulation (only 0.5" in spots). I also
> drive less now, so waste heat alone has been inadequate. I added a 75
> watt heater to each battery box last winter, which proved sufficient.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>


--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com

CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders

Quotable Quote

"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."

Wendell Berry

--
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225

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I probably won't be able to check my emails until Monday. Pls. phone 739 77 17, 
if you need a quick answer. Cheers!

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--- Begin Message --- What if everyone on a list set their autoresponse to the whole list and they all auto repsponded to the autorepsonses . Would it progress in a geometric expansion and suck all power from the electric grid? Then we would have to power the servers by pluging into the batteries in the ev's

Sigh.....


On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 4:06 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I probably won't be able to check my emails until Monday. Pls. phone 739 77 17, if you need a quick answer. Cheers!

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

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--- Begin Message --- hehe, it would appear that the autoresponse is smart enough to only notify once though

GWMobile wrote:

What if everyone on a list set their autoresponse to the whole list and they all auto repsponded to the autorepsonses . Would it progress in a geometric expansion and suck all power from the electric grid? Then we would have to power the servers by pluging into the batteries in the ev's

Sigh.....


On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 4:06 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I probably won't be able to check my emails until Monday. Pls. phone 739 77 17, if you need a quick answer. Cheers!

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

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I'm pretty sure both the EV1 (or at least the Impact) and the
Solectria sunrise held about 2/3 of their weight in batteries. This is
a result of having been designed as EVs from the ground up using
lightweight composites construction, much like your Evette.

So if you argument is about custom designed EV vs conversion EV then
it's true, however, it doesn't say much about your choice of vehicle
configuration. In fact I think both previously  mentioned vehicles
carry slightly more batteries/weight than the Evette (can't find the
data) and with those two giant wheels on the back I'm sure you get
less range due to rolling resistance.

It's a very nifty vehicle though.




On 7/13/07, Tom S. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Peter,

Let me explain in a little more detail, the  Evette  weighs about a 1000lbs 
without batteries,it will bold up to 40 orbital batteries at about 40lbs a 
piece, thats about 1600lbs.Thats a ratio of 1.6/1, and a total weight of 
2600lbs. Electric conversions that can hold 40 orbitals ,will be 2000lbs or 
more,thats a total weight of 3600lbs or more.  Agree or disagree?

-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 11, 2007 8:25 PM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: RE: conversion question
>
>Your insistance that the Evette is the perfect EV is what is bringing out
>the nay sayers.
>The Evette is cool, but it's not perfect.
>The few advantages it has simply don't make that much difference in
>practical terms and the disadvantages are pretty glaring.
>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Michael Wendell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Sent: Jul 11, 2007 11:34 AM
>>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>>Subject: RE: conversion question
>>>
>>>
>>>> In your dreans. The EVette not only maneuvers at low
>>>> speeds, it turns very well at higher speeds as well.
>>>
>>>want to prove that statement? if so, my offer still stands. attend an
>>> SCCA
>>>autocross. if you can finish in the top 50% i'll gladly pay your entry
>>> fee.
>>>
>>>sorry, the opinion of some local newspaper reporter, or your own
>>> exclamation
>>>that it's fun to drive won't convince me that it actually handles well.
>>>
>>>m.
>>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> PeoplePC Online
>> A better way to Internet
>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
>wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
>legalistic signature is void.
>


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
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www.electric-lemon.com

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