EV Digest 7037

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Dead EV batteries, OK for solar or other uses?
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: 4002 vs. ADC 8"
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Battery Problems
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Battery Problems
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: necessity of other gauges (12V and vacuum)
        by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) What happened at the races????????
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  7) Re: EV's need sleep mode
        by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Battery Problems
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) unsubscribe ev
        by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: necessity of other gauges (12V and vacuum)
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Land of the Midnight Run
        by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Audio interference in EV
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Motor control operation including regen
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Interesting NEV on eBay
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 16) Re: Audio interference in EV
        by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: Dead EV batteries, OK for solar or other uses?
        by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) RE: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: The final comparison
        by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: EV's need sleep mode
        by Lawrence Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) RE: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Th!nk - Can it PASS the Crash TEST ??
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: 4002 vs. ADC 8"
        by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Deanne Mott wrote:
I am wondering if a set of floodies (or other batteries) too dead for
an EV will still be good for other uses.

It depends on what's wrong with them. They might be "too dead for an EV" because they have low amphour capacity, or too high an internal resistance, or a high self-discharge rate, or excess water usage, or other problems (dead cells, damaged terminals, cracked or leaking cases, etc.)

In particular, I want to set up an off-grid PV solar system for a
friend's hunting cabin out in the sticks.  I think the most load he'll
have is for a water pump.  He says he wants 40A (I will double check
his requirements) but seems like some day when I kill my set of
T-125's they should still have enough life in them to do that...

The best situation would be that your EV batteries work fine, but don't have enough amphour capacity any more -- say, you need 40 miles range, but they only deliver 30 miles so you need to replace them.

Another possibility (mainly with gels or AGMs) is that overcharging has caused water loss and grid corrosion -- they now have high internal resistance and can't deliver high currents; but they have good amphour capacity with low current loads.

If flooded batteries are old or have a lot of cycles on them, they may still work adequately (more than half their amphour capacity remains), but have excessively high end-of charge current and gas a lot. They might work "OK" in a solar application, but will waste most of your precious solar energy and need frequent watering.

Obviously, batteries with bad cells, leaks, or seriously low amphour capacity would be more trouble than they're worth. Recycle them, and get some decent used ones for your friend's PV application.

When you take in your old PbA batteries to trade for new ones do you
get any money back for them?

Yes, you should. Some dealers (crooks) will *charge* you to return the old batteries. But the scrap value of lead is pretty high; an honest dealer or metals recycling place will pay *you* $2 to $5 per battery.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Mohlere wrote:
I was hoping a seasoned EV veteran could give me an opinion as to the difference between a Prestolite MTC-4002 and an ADC 8"... would the difference be negligible? Would an EV w/ a Prestolite 4002 be preferable to one w/ an ADC 8" or vice versa - I realize the ADC is the more "modern" version, so the Prestolite would be older, but in terms of performance...

In my opinion, the Prestolites are well-made, reliable motors -- probably a bit higher quality than ADC motors.

Performance-wise, I don't think you'll be able to tell the difference between a Prestolite and ADC motor of the same size and weight without very careful measurements -- they are that similar.

In this case, the MTC-4002 is a 7" motor (equivalent to ADC's 6.7" motor). So, the ADC 8" will be a little bigger and heavier, and can deliver a bit more continuous-duty horsepower, or can deliver a given amount of horsepower for a bit longer before it overheats.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,

The 86 volts is a normal standing voltage for a 84 volt battery pack.

Maximum charge voltage for these types of battery, according to my battery 
spec sheet is 7.4 volts per 6 volt battery or 14.8 volts for a 12 volt 
battery.  For a 84 volt pack, this would be 103.6 volt maximum your PFC-40 
should be set for.

With the PFC-40, you should be able to instantly set the ampere and the 
voltage will start out a the battery discharge voltage and climb to the 
maximum voltage you set.

When it reaches that maximum voltage set point, the voltage will now be 
maintain at that voltage while the ampere starts to decrease.

Lets say you start the charge amps at 40 amps, then when its taper to about 
10% of the maximum amp charge, or about 4 amps, the battery should be charge 
to about 99%.

As the batteries get older, it may never get to 10% of the maximum charge 
amp.  You have to adjust your time out so the charger will shut down.

I think the maximum charge ampere for these batteries as listed is 36 amps 
for a long life when new and then you have to reduce it as they age.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:57 AM
Subject: Battery Problems


> Last fall I picked up a "new" Sparrow to replace one that had burned
> with my Shop.  I had to put all new Optima YT's into it.
> The big problem was that my job had moved so I couldn't use the
> Sparrow for my commute, I was only making 1 or 2 short runs a week
> with it.  I was careful to keep the batteries charged (and didn't let
> the Zivan cook them!).  Several months ago I came down the driveway,
> hit a bug mudhole, and broke the drive belt.  Since I really didn't
> want to crawl around in the mud and weeks to fix it, it has been
> sitting at the side of my house since.  I was checking the charge
> every couple of weeks.  About 3 months ago, I charged it, and it went
> into thermal runaway. (HOT batteries, charger still chugging at full
> power long after it should have.)
> So I shut down the charger and hit the Big Red Switch. (disconnect 
> everything)
> Yesterday I finally moved it to my new shop, and have begun getting
> it back to working condition.
> Found the batteries DEAD.  completely.  This was rather surprising.
> So I hooked up the new PFC-40, and as the batteries warmed up, it
> reached a full 42A charge rate into them.  I did this for a bit over
> an hour.  (no regs yet...)  The batteries warmed up, and the charge
> voltage actually dropped a bit.
> Today I went out, and the pack was at 86 volts!  after sitting all
> night with the Big Red Switch thrown!
>
> Have I wrecked my Optima YT's?
> --
> John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:23 AM 7/17/2007, Roland Wiench wrote:
The 86 volts is a normal standing voltage for a 84 volt battery pack.

This is a Sparrow.  It has 13 Optima YT's for a nominal 156V pack.
86 volts is WAY too low!

Since I was starting from a completely dead pack (which should NOT have happened). The charger hit 190V almost instantly, with only about a 10A charge rate. As the batteries warmed, it built up to a 42A charge rate, and the voltage dropped to about 184V. After charging for about an hour, I turned everything off, hit the Big Red Switch, and left it for the night.
It was the next day when I turned the car back on that I saw the 86V reading!

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....         
http://www.CasaDelGato.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I have NEVER seen a car in all my years with either a vacuum warning light or a vacuum gauge (other than one of those "econ-o-scopes").

The Brake warning lights on most cars detect 3 things:

1. Abnormal differential hydraulic pressure between the front and rear circuits.
2. Excessive master cylinder travel, which would indicate a failure
3. Low brake fluid in reservoir by means of a float switch

In addition, sometimes there is a switch on the handbrake. Some cars, mainly European, have excessive pad wear also illuminate the light. This is accomplished either with slave cylinder travel switch or (more commonly) a wire or electrode embedded in the brake linings.

ABS systems usually have their own light.

Since loss of power brakes is not considered a "brake failure", it usually doesn't have a light. It will obviously have a considerable pedal force increase, but will stop.

Many modern vehicles with ABS don't use vacuum anymore anyway, they are electro-hydraulic. They use a hydraulic boost system with a very high pressure accumulator and electric pump that kicks in occasionally to maintain pressure. These usually don't have warning lights either. Sometimes the ABS light will come on.

Your "inspector" is full of crap.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 4:54 AM
Subject: RE: necessity of other gauges (12V and vacuum)


--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


So CT requires a vacuum gauge or low vacuum buzzer in every ICE vehicle
that has power brakes too?  After all any vacuum system can develop a
leak or otherwise fail, and many ICE vehicles have come factory equipped
with electric vacuum pumps for the brakes and so are subject to all the
failure modes that your EV might have...


I asked him the same thing. His response was that all cars have some kind of brake warning light and these are hooked in to vacuum. If you loose vacuum, the brake warning light should come on. I haven't tried it, but it sounds plausible. And since he conceded that I could just install a vacuum gage instead of a warning buzzer, I was happy. I found a nice little 1.5" gage, I just have to find a place to put it. Not a lot of room in my dash, and all the automotive gage supplies are for 2" and larger gages. But I do have 1.5" hole saw, I just have to find something to put a hole
in.

Dave Cover



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--- Begin Message --- A good solution is a tapeswitch. Put it in the drivers seat. You can probably recover one from the passenger seat of a late model dual-airbag car. Add a simple short time delay circuit to avoid nuisance trips over large bumps, when reaching for lost cellphones, etc. After say 10 seconds, the main contactor opens. Add an annoying sound as soon as the switch opens so you know what's about to happen. This is also a good safety feature, will prevent accidental runaway if the key is left on in a garage, etc.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: EV's need sleep mode


John Foster wrote:
the general public... They park, grab some things off the floor,
leave the keys on in the ignition. This happens in home garages, on
dealer lots, in repair shops. The car may be parked for weeks or
months, then the pack is shot.

I agree. It is one thing to kill a $100 12v car battery; it is quite another to kill a $1000 pack! Since the cost of the error is so much higher in an EV, it makes sense to have better safeguards.

Laptops, calculators, cameras, all modern battery operated things
go to sleep if the owner accidentally leaves them on.

Well, sort of. Most older electronics were totally off, or fully on. It was pretty obvious if you left them running (lights, noise, heat, etc.) And when off, they were completely off -- no parasitic loads at all.

Most newer stuff has no totally off function -- just sleep and fully on. Modern cars will run down their 12v battery in a few weeks, just from all the parasitic "sleep" loads. Laptops destroy their batteries if not charged regularly due to the constant load of their electronics.

I think cars should go to sleep if the accelerator isn't pressed for an hour. Then wake with the key off & on. Any other ideas?

This is a viable strategy, but it adds complexity. It can also become a "secret mode" that does things the customer doesn't expect. Maybe he's stuck in traffic for an hour without moving. When he finally gets ready to step on the throttle, the car suddenly shuts off. It could lead to trips to the dealer, fruitless searches for a problem, etc.

With lithium, nicad, or nimh batteries, there is no particular penalty from letting them sit in a partially discharged state. So, it is acceptable to have a low voltage cutout circuit that shuts down it the pack falls to 10% or 20% state of charge.

My own preference is to design things to be more energy efficient in the first place. There is no excuse for an electrical system that is so inefficient that it quickly runs down a huge propulsion battery. Get rid of the parasitic "sleep mode" loads. Fans shouldn't be running if there's nothing to cool. Contactors shouldn't be pulled in when you're not driving. Clocks can run for years on a coin-sized cell; they don't need to waste 1000's of times more power like car clocks. Radios can run on AA cells for days; if car radios were as efficient, they would run for years on the propulsion batteries. Trip odometers and radio presets can use nonvolatile memories that don't use any power.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, the 190 volt is about right for these batteries of 156 volts.  But the 
voltage should have not went right to 190 volts instantly if the batteries 
are discharge.

Could have some bad cells or even the electrolyte is below the plates which 
can cause sulfated cells which can short the plates together at the top. 
Normally this happens with age, where the positive O2 and  negative sulfate 
drops to the bottom of the battery and builds up until it touches the plates 
at the bottom.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Problems


> At 11:23 AM 7/17/2007, Roland Wiench wrote:
> >The 86 volts is a normal standing voltage for a 84 volt battery pack.
>
> This is a Sparrow.  It has 13 Optima YT's for a nominal 156V pack.
> 86 volts is WAY too low!
>
> Since I was starting from a completely dead pack (which should NOT
> have happened).  The charger hit 190V almost instantly, with only
> about a 10A charge rate.  As the batteries warmed, it built up to a
> 42A charge rate, and the voltage dropped to about 184V.
> After charging for about an hour, I turned everything off, hit the
> Big Red Switch, and left it for the night.
> It was the next day when I turned the car back on that I saw the 86V 
> reading!
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
> 

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*       Lists at  sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT         *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
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--- Begin Message ---
(-Phil-) wrote: 

> I have NEVER seen a car in all my years with either a vacuum 
> warning light or a vacuum gauge (other than one of those
> "econ-o-scopes").

[...]

> Your "inspector" is full of crap.

I agree completely.  It would have been amusing to ask the inspector to
demonstrate this "standard" feature with his own ICE vehicle by
disconnecting the vacuum to the brake booster and observing the 'brake'
idiot light to see if it lit.  (And, assuming you converted a vehicle
that was equipped with power brakes, if this were a standard feature,
then it would already have been present on your vehicle without needing
you to add anything; all you have done is replaced the gasoline-powered
vacuum pump with an electric one, the rest of the system is the same and
doesn't care if the vacuum comes from an ICE manifold, a venturi on the
side of the car (seen on aircraft), or an electric vacuum pump.)

Too bad you had to go through that to satisfy this individual, but the
important thing is that you got the EV licensed!

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I seem to always forget the important details.  Sometimes it makes me wonder if 
I really deserve the masters degree when I can forget the important details.  
:)  But thanks.

The vehicle is a 1974 VW beetle.  I am not sure what the weight of the car is, 
after all the unnecessary ICE components are out, but according to 
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z7068/default.aspx, the before weight was 
1831 lbs.  The current batteries I have killed are 35 AH AGMs, weighing in at 
29 lbs.  I have 12 of them, which is basically 350 lbs.  That got me 8 miles, 
round trip, 4 miles of which are basically flat, at around 50 mph, and 2 miles 
up a fairly steep incline at around 65 mph, and then down that same hill for 
the last 2 miles at 65 mph.  I did have to limp home.  I think I need to get 
rid of some extra rolling resistance somewhere as I thought I should have been 
able to coast down the hill, but still needed to push the accelerator to keep 
up the speed, but not sure where to start.  Any suggestions?  This trip was 
done once.

Okay back to the other details.  The first 8 miles or so will be on highway 
roads, fairly flat with speeds around 50 - 60 mph.  Then I will be in town, 
where the speeds will be 30 - 35 mph, with the last little bit to school being 
another hill.  The winters get down to below freezing regularly, for around at 
least a month.  I don't plan on using battery heaters.

I hope I gave all the important details.  If I say that the weight of the car 
without batteries was 1800 lbs, and have around 700 lbs of batteries, and 
everything is in good working order, any estimates on how far I can go?  What 
about if I have around 1050 lbs of batteries?  I would try some of the EV 
calculators, but I can't get to some, and the batteries I initially purchased 
aren't there.  

Thanks for all comments.
Brian

On Tue Jul 17  7:24 , Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:

>Ahhh yes, battricide.  Been there, done that.
>   I needed to hear the fraction of your weight that
>is in batteries vs. entire vehicle to make a guess to
>this.  I needed to know if you have a truck or small
>car.  I needed to know if you'll be on the freeway, or
>regular roads.  I need to know what wintertime temp.
>you'll be facing; battery heater mats or no?  All of
>this adds up to determine your range.  And an e-meter,
>when programmed with the voltage and Ampere-hours in
>the batteries, will have power bars that can tell you
>what your range will be.  My Civvy started off at 2220
>lbs, and is now 3200.  So roughly a third of the
>weight is batteries; range is around 40 mi. without
>stressing the batteries, and in summertime.
>   The more lead, the more range, no matter _how_ you
>structure the batteries.  Putting them in buddy pair
>will generally limit your sag as you pull amps out.
>   It sounds like in your post you've already figured
>out that higher voltage = less amp draw = less
>resistance, and higher range, but as you mention,
>you're at the limit of the controller.  Most people,
>myself included, don't have the luxury of adding on
>more batteries, either in pairs, or one string: we've
>maxed it out in the first place.
>Hope that helps a little...  BTW: Congratulations on
>going back for the master's deg!
>   
>
>--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> When I originally planned my car, I didn't need much
>> range: 8 miles round trip.  So I bought some
>> batteries which did the job.  That was a couple of
>> years ago.  Starting the end of August, I will be
>> going back to school to finish my masters degree. 
>> That will be about a 28 mile trip.  Last year I had
>> another car to get me to and from.  But this year, I
>> will need my electric.  I currently have the maximum
>> number of batteries my curtis 1231 will allow.  I
>> need to buy a new battery pack (can we say newbi
>> battericide).  So I have considered two options: 
>> one string of higher capacity batteries, or multiple
>> strings of the same capacity battery.  I should be
>> able to charge while at school (a friend lives
>> close).  So 14 miles.  I was initially thinking of
>> buddy pairing two together, in one string.  Would
>> this get me my 14 mile range without too much
>> discharge?  Or would a buddy trio be bad?  Or would
>> a battery with double capacity be better?  I would
>> appreciate all opinions on the !
>>  subject, especially those who have tried running a
>> single string and buddy paired batteries.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Brian
>> ---- Msg sent via @=WebMail -
>> http://webmail.usu.edu/
>> 
>> 
>
>
>Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic?  For $20 DVD you can purchase footage of my 
>'92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too! 
>Learn more at: www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html                       
>          ____ 
>                     __/__|__\ __       
>  =D-------/    -  -         \         
>                     'O'-----'O'-'
>Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? 
>Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
> 
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>The fish are biting. 
>Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
>http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php

---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, 
You know this all seems to be gellin' into place in my mind.  On Monday on the 
way to work I was just thinking about who to start going around soliciting 
sponsorship and two lights in front of me I see a Northwest Handling service 
truck drive across the intersection.   I thought I was still in Portland and 
just woke up driving my truck.  Anyway the thought occured that if you're 
company's office up here is into the sponsorship thing maybe they would want to 
provide a service truck for the EVent here?  just a random thought.  I'm also 
working on a diesel genset we can convert to run on veggie oil.   Our track 
doesn't have a big industrial power drop like yours :-(

So next I'm working with Lynden Trasnport services to get our motors picked up 
from Hi-Torque and the girls in the office want to know why my stuff took so 
long.  I had to tell them the crazy guy at the motor shop is a stickler for 
details and had to get the drag race motors just right.  I sent them pics of 
the motors they were going to be shipping. All three of the girls on the e-mail 
distribution list (probably not wanting the other to know they were interested 
in the electric dragster) e-mailed me and asked for pics of the car :-)  So my 
next move is to have them put me in touch with the right people to approach 
about automotive transport sponsorship for a big race :-)

So lets see what I can get penciled in and we'll follow up hard of getting a 
date set for next summer.  Hey at least up here, at midnight, you won't need 
your headlights to see the end of the track ;-)

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:39 am
Subject: Land of the Midnight Run
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu

> Hello to All,
> 
> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> 
> >....you'll have to make it to Anchorage for the "Land of the 
> Midnight Run"  (if I can EVer get it set up) heh heh. Maybe withing 
> the next couple years.  I'll have to soften everyone up for the EV 
> racers :-)
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> OK Mike, now listen up! What's this crap about 'next couple of 
> years? 
> You've now been to a NEDRA EVent, you've hung with all us crazy amp 
> heads (you're now one of us), so you know we get things done, and 
> we get 
> things done quickly. I can't wait a couple of years to come clean 
> your 
> Crazy Pony's clock with White Zombie, so again, listen up. I 'need' 
> an 
> excuse to return to your beautiful state and to the Anchorage area 
> again...I'm having withdrawals. You need to set a date for June-ish 
> near 
> the summer solstice, if not right on target for it, then after 
> you've 
> made the commitment, 'make' it happen! I'm coming back to Anchorage 
> next 
> summer with White Zombie (if you can swing a shipping sponsor) to 
> see 
> you put your money where your mouth is, dude! Racing through 
> midnight 
> with it still feeling like the afternoon, will freak everyone 
> out...but 
> they'll love it!
> 
> Hopefully, all realize I'm just ribbing Mikey here, but I 'am' 
> serious 
> about him making a date for summer of '08 for many of us to head 
> north 
> to Alaska for what will surely be an unforgettable EVent. Alaska is 
> as 
> beautiful as all the postcards and travel features show it to be, 
> and 
> more, It's simply breathtaking! Well....maybe excluding the frozen 
> wasteland Kuparik Camp I worked at in the Arctic Circle! As part of 
> a 
> racing week up there, we'll have to include a field trip up and 
> around 
> the Turnagain Arm:
> 
> http://www.alaskascenes.com/turnagain.html
> 
> This is probably one of the most beautiful places on earth!
> 
> I'm fairly certain that with enough prior notice (hint, set that 
> date 
> NOW!) and with a shipper as a sponsor to get the EVs up there and 
> back, 
> guys like Bill Dube, Dennis Berube, Shawn Lawless, Rod Wilde 
> (Maniac 
> Mazda back on the track soon) and others with really fast EVs will 
> want 
> to be part of this!
> 
> See Ya....John Wayland
> 
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian Pikkula wrote: 

> Could you just put a Faraday cage around the controller and 
> cables to the motor?

Sure, or you could go to the same extremes as Roland did, but you don't
need to.

Simply keeping the high current wiring and potential noise sources
(controller, contactors, DC/DC, maybe the vacuum pump) out of the
passenger compartment and away from the radio and keeping your high
current cable bundled together in pairs (which keeps thing neat and tidy
looking anyway) is going to be sufficient in almost every case.

The engine bay in a conversion is nearly a Faraday cage already, or
looking at it another way, so is the passenger compartment.  So, as long
as the high current wiring and noise sources are outside the passenger
compartment (and reasonable steps are taken to minimise their
radiation), and the head unit and antenna cable are inside the passenger
compartment, you've already got some degree of shielding.

The first step I would personally take is to locate the controller such
that the motor<->controller cables are as short as possible, and bundle
them together.  If this doesn't eliminate all controller-related
interference (i.e. interference that varies with throttle position),
then try bundling the battery<->controller cables and/or move the
controller further from the firewall and/or the radio location of the
firewall.  If you have noise that doesn't vary with throttle, suspect
the DC/DC putting noise on the 12V system or perhaps the contactors
(Kilovacs with internal or external economisers can generate EMI when
powered up).  If you suspect the contactor(s), try relocating them
further from the firewall/radio location (but beware getting them too
close to the controller as there have been reports of the contactors
themselves misbehaving due to EMI from the controller!).  Try to keep
the batteries (and associated traction cables) outside of the passenger
compartment (this can be effectively achieved "simply" by providing a
metal cover over the batteries that attaches to the vehicle body so as
to "fill" in the hole(s) over the battery box(es) and running the
traction cables under the floor instead of above it).

Cheers,

Roger.

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Someone posted this on the OSMC (Open source motor
control) list on yahoo.
Looks like it has quite a bit of information including
how to size a motor (which may be applicable to on
road EV's)
http://www.roboteq.com/files/apnotes/AN70614-Understanding%20Regeneration.pdf
Rod

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Yep... you can find it when doing a search online. BTW, before bidding,
you might consider actually seeing the car. This sounds like a seller's
"spare" account.

On Mon, July 16, 2007 10:55 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Anyone seen this NEV (probably a Chinese import)?
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=11014903883
> 1
>
>
> Ya think it *can* go 70mi? That 25mph top speed is galling...

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--- Begin Message --- You can buy 'overbraid' that's designed to make your cheap hoses look like Goodrich or Aeroquip.

It would probably make quite an effective cable screen.

Paul Compton
www.evguru.co.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.bvs.org.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I am wondering if a set of floodies (or other batteries) too dead for
an EV will still be good for other uses.

In particular, I want to set up an off-grid PV solar system for a
friend's hunting cabin out in the sticks.  I think the most load he'll
have is for a water pump.  He says he wants 40A (I will double check
his requirements) but seems like some day when I kill my set of
T-125's they should still have enough life in them to do that...

Mick says: "Dead" is a relative term where batteries are concerned. If dead
means able to store only 10% of their original energy, I would not advise
reuse in any other application. Industrial battery users typically recycle a
battery after it falls to 50% of original capacity. To reduce guesswork
there's no substitute for real world measurement of amp-hour delivery, but
this does require a specialized testing rig.

dandeotis wrote: "When you take in your old PbA batteries to trade for new
ones do you get any money back for them?"

Mick says: When I buy batteries for new clients where there are no old cores
to turn in, I am charged a $3 core fee. If I have dead batteries to turn in
at the same time as the new purchase, the battery supplier deducts that $3
fee per unit. $3 is a pittance, of course, but I'm just happy that the old
units will be properly recycled through the reclamation system which is in
place in the American lead acid battery industry.

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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

> The vehicle is a 1974 VW beetle.

> The current batteries I have killed are 35 AH AGMs, weighing
> in at 29 lbs.  I have 12 of them, which is basically 350 lbs.
>  That got me 8 miles, round trip, 4 miles of which are
> basically flat, at around 50 mph, and 2 miles up a fairly
> steep incline at around 65 mph, and then down that same hill
> for the last 2 miles at 65 mph.  I did have to limp home.

> If I say that the weight of the car without batteries was
> 1800 lbs, and have around 700 lbs of batteries, and
> everything is in good working order, any estimates on how
> far I can go?

Well, if 350lbs got you 8mi, 700lbs ought to get you about 16mi.

My suggestion would be to switch to floodeds.  If you want to stick with
12Vers, something like the Trojan J150 (~87Ah @ 75A) or T1275 (~70Ah @
75A), both just over 80lbs each would be my first choice.  Even a group
31-size flooded such as the 31XHS (~71Ah @ 75A, just under 70lbs each)
should give you the range you need.

The J150 or T1275 type pack would weigh in just under 1000lbs and should
give you a maximum range of somewhere around 23mi or so.  Derate to 80%
DOD and you're still at about 18mi or so.

The advantage of the floodeds over the AGMs is that they are more
tolerant of charging abuse (so will not be murdered as quickly), and can
be discharged more deeply than AGMs while still giving more cycles
(again meaning  greater life and more usable capacity from a given pack
weight).  You might actually get a bit more range than these estimates,
since we don't really know what your 35Ah AGMs really delivered at the
sort of discharge rates your trip demands from them.  Even the 75A that
I've quoted the flooded's capacity at is going to by about a 2C rate
rate for these little guys and their usable capacity is probably not
much better than 20Ah there.

For about the same 1000lbs, you could drop to 120V of flooded 8Vers.
The range would be similar (perhaps a bit less due to the higher current
required at the lower voltage), but the 8Vs might be less costly than
12Vers.  The 8Vers are taller and that might make them problematic for
you.  To use 6Vers and keep to about 1000lbs would mean dropping to just
90V, which might impact your highway performance too greatly (and any
voltage change might require a change in charger, etc. which adds more
cost).

Cheers,

Roger.

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On 17 Jul 2007 at 13:30, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> If I say that the weight of the
> car without batteries was 1800 lbs, and have around 700 lbs of batteries,
> and everything is in good working order, any estimates on how far I can go?

If you fix your drag problem, 25-30 miles.

> What about if I have around 1050 lbs of batteries?

Around 35-40 miles.  

For drag problems, check for underinflated tires, dragging brakes, excessive 
wheel toe, tight, rough, or improperly greased wheel bearings, rough CV 
joints, transaxle gear oil too heavy or turned to mush, etc.  If everything is 
right, you should be able to push the car on level ground by leaning against it.

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Ken and All,
Guilty as charged! Speaking of laying down two rubber tracks, the other day
a local kid came up to me and said, "you were not kidding about electric
cars having huge amounts of tire shredding power..." He went on to explain
how he caught my RX-7 EV burn-out on a previous night, while leaving a
local restaurant!
Suck Amps,
BB

>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:01:34 EDT
>>
<snippage>
>
>Additionally, some EV's emit rubber vapor from their tires.  :)
>
>Ken

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--- Begin Message --- Just a data point, my smart car's immobilizer kicks in after a few minutes if you turn off the car and don't lock it. The first couple of times you get in and fiddle with the iPod or read the headlines on the paper before you start the car are a bit confusing when the ignition does not work but you get use to it pretty fast. There is a key lock symbol in the dashboard display just to let you know the car is locked. A quick press of the unlock button reactivates everything. However I agree with Lee that a propulsion pack should basically have a self discharge profile with just the basic parasitic loads operating.

Lawrence

Lee Hart wrote:
John Foster wrote:
the general public... They park, grab some things off the floor,
leave the keys on in the ignition. This happens in home garages, on
dealer lots, in repair shops. The car may be parked for weeks or
months, then the pack is shot.

I agree. It is one thing to kill a $100 12v car battery; it is quite another to kill a $1000 pack! Since the cost of the error is so much higher in an EV, it makes sense to have better safeguards.

Laptops, calculators, cameras, all modern battery operated things
go to sleep if the owner accidentally leaves them on.

Well, sort of. Most older electronics were totally off, or fully on. It was pretty obvious if you left them running (lights, noise, heat, etc.) And when off, they were completely off -- no parasitic loads at all.

Most newer stuff has no totally off function -- just sleep and fully on. Modern cars will run down their 12v battery in a few weeks, just from all the parasitic "sleep" loads. Laptops destroy their batteries if not charged regularly due to the constant load of their electronics.

I think cars should go to sleep if the accelerator isn't pressed for an hour. Then wake with the key off & on. Any other ideas?

This is a viable strategy, but it adds complexity. It can also become a "secret mode" that does things the customer doesn't expect. Maybe he's stuck in traffic for an hour without moving. When he finally gets ready to step on the throttle, the car suddenly shuts off. It could lead to trips to the dealer, fruitless searches for a problem, etc.

With lithium, nicad, or nimh batteries, there is no particular penalty from letting them sit in a partially discharged state. So, it is acceptable to have a low voltage cutout circuit that shuts down it the pack falls to 10% or 20% state of charge.

My own preference is to design things to be more energy efficient in the first place. There is no excuse for an electrical system that is so inefficient that it quickly runs down a huge propulsion battery. Get rid of the parasitic "sleep mode" loads. Fans shouldn't be running if there's nothing to cool. Contactors shouldn't be pulled in when you're not driving. Clocks can run for years on a coin-sized cell; they don't need to waste 1000's of times more power like car clocks. Radios can run on AA cells for days; if car radios were as efficient, they would run for years on the propulsion batteries. Trip odometers and radio presets can use nonvolatile memories that don't use any power.

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The rear suspension arrangement on the old Beetles doesn't help.
Weight changes will change the rear alignment dramatically on those.

-Dale

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--- Begin Message ---
Are you referring to the Th!nk City, or the Th!nk Neighbor?

Z

On 7/17/07, Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The Th1nk EV seems to be gaining some traction, with new investors
jumping in, according to several sources and news briefs.

  Does any one know whether the car itself will ever pass muster with
the US crash-worthy standards ??  Or will it just be another 25 mph NEV ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 850-8535
Eve:  206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org



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On Jul 17, 2007, at 7:33 AM, Jim Husted wrote:

Nothing to do with old vs new. ADC copied a lot of
Prestolites stuff.  Botom line, MTC= 80 lbs, ADC8= 125
lbs, you do the math, hehe.  It really is that simple.
 Now two MTC's (160 lbs) vs a 9" (150 lbs) is a better
question, Id bet on the two MTC's.

Now I'm trying to be very careful before I contradict you. You are the motor god and I am a happy Prestolite user :-P

My Prestolite MTC motor drawings (used for adapter and fitting purposes) list the motor as 105 lb. EVparts lists the single shaft ADC 8 inch motor as 110 lb. Using the Prestolite motor curves I get a continuous rating of 18 HP on a nominal 96v pack vs. an ADC 8" with 19 HP continuous at 96 volts nominal.

Always interested in your thoughts on this as another Presto MTC or an ADC 8" will be getting used in my current conversion. Also, I got a hunch that this is concerning the VW Pickup I built that is currently for sale (not by me.)

Paul "neon" Gooch

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