Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:07:51 -0700
EV Digest 7042
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Simple Controller
by "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fast Charging
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Number of E-mails
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Zivan (NG2?)
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
by "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Simple Controller
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
by "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Simple Controller
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV's need sleep mode
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
by "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Number of E-mails
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: LED headlights- new development!
by Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Simple Controller
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Simple Controller
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Simple Controller
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Tell Me Which DC to DC Converter I Should Use
by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) AGNS back to the track, FINALLY!!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Simple Controller
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Tell Me Which DC to DC Converter I Should Use
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Simple Controller
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 4002 vs. ADC 8"
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Simple Controller
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Tell Me Which DC to DC Converter I Should Use
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- SCR - Silicon Controlled Rectifier - use wikipedia and see if you can find more details, if interested.john Dan Frederiksen wrote:what's an SCR?
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--- Begin Message ---At 08:38 AM 7/19/2007, Lee Hart wrote:I think I mentioned this before to John, but for the benefit of the rest of the list...You can replace the special resistor on the Rudman regulators with a standard 10w or 20w ceramic tube resistor. This type consists of a hollow ceramic tube, with the resistance wire wound on it, a terminal on each end, and a ceramic glase over it for insulation.Note that this is only for the OLD style regulators. Not the current version. (I have MKIIC regs)Route a copper tube through the center of each one. Pump water (or oil or something) through them all. This carries away the heat neatly, with no need for fans or heatsinks.Frankly, I find that mounting a little CPU fan, and plugging it into the connector on the reg is a LOT easier than routing a cooling line all over the place, adding pump, radiator, etc...-- John G. Lussmyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---I've been getting less e-mails; is this a problem with the server or are there just less e-mails?
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--- Begin Message ---Thank you Lee for all your different charge control methods. :) On 7/19/07, storm connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Lee, That is the most succinct description of charge control I've seen! An amplification of one of your points, having a timer on the charger can be a butt saver. If all else fails or the monitor gets distracted, at least the cooking time is limited. On 7/18/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Joseph T. wrote: > > So what chargers are appropriate for AGM batteries? > > It's not so much of an appropriate "charger" -- it's a matter of setting > up whatever charger you have to produce the right charging algorithm. > Even a really crude, simple, stupid charger can do a good job if > carefully set up and monitored. Conversely, a very expensive > sophisticated charger can still screw up and fry the batteries if > programmed wrong. > > Here's the bottom line: You need to know how many amphours you took out > of the batteries. Put back that amount, plus about 5% more. batteries > will be full charged, with just a bit more overcharging for equalization > and balancing. > > Now, how do you find this point? > > 1. Amphour counting: Put back 105% of what was taken out. > > 2. Voltage level detect: Charge until voltage rises to about 2.45v/cell. > (Assumes the charger's current drops off as it approaches full > charge.) > > 3. DV/DT: Charge until voltage stops rising. (Assumes the charger > regulates current at the end of a charge cycle.) > > 4. Current level detect: Charge until current falls below about 2% of > the battery's amphour capacity. (Assumes the charger limits voltage > at the end of a charge cycle). > > 5. DI/DT: Charge until the current stops falling. (Assumes the charger > regulates voltage at the end of a charge). > > 6. Time-based: Charge for a fixed length of time. (Assumes the charging > current automatically tapers off when the battery nears full). > > 7. Temperature-based: Stop charging when battery temperature starts > to rise. > > Automatic chargers generally use one or more of these methods. But you > can also do it manually, or set up a simple system to accomplish the > same result. > > -- > Ring the bells that still can ring > Forget the perfect offering > There is a crack in everything > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen > -- > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net > > -- http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
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--- Begin Message --- No response yet from Amp Mobile Conversions, but I did get a response back from both LionEV and EV America. LionEV said that the cost of a typical pack that would yield 100 mile range would be about $20,000. According to the person who responded to me, they get a real good tax cut if the batteries go into newly made vehicles, which is why they are selling vehicles now. As for conversions, the tax credits aren't there, hence the high prices, which should come down in a few years.EV America gave a rough price of $10-15K for a pack, but didn't specify model, etc.At any rate, it basically is still out of the neighborhood for me - Colorado has a nice tax credit which should cover the expense of conversion for me, but I would need to spread it out over 4-5 years. $15,000 means the carryover would be beyond the 5 year limit for me for the total conversion, so I need to look at the standard lead-acid solutions for now.Timothy Balcer wrote:It's been two days.. gimme gimme! :-)
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--- Begin Message --- Oh no shortage of reasons. For one, an SCR is a latch, once it turns on it won't turn off until the current drops to zero which works fine for AC sources but not DC. IGBT/MOSFETs are the switches you'd use.At these power levels, any flaw in the switching waveform- shape or voltage- can fry the $$$ transistors immediately. Now assuming a perfect gate driver were available, there's part selection, major thermal issues, and an issue of how you get hundreds of amps from a thick cable, across a thin foil PCB, and back out through another cable without anything in between melting.There is no "shortcut" for a cheap controller for a high power problem, even if you want to discard all the bells and whistles it will not make the basic task much easier or cheaper.Danny Dan Frederiksen wrote:what's an SCR? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I know controllers have been beat to death here. From Zillas to homemadecontrollers. But can someone please sum it all up for me. Why can't I use a PWM signal, amplified through a motor driver to switch a high power SCR?Is this how the old SCR controllers work so can I just use an scr bigenough for the voltage and current I want to handle? Just looking for thesimplest solid state possible. Im sure everyone is sick of controller talk for a while but I must have missed this explanation. Thanks, Paul
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--- Begin Message ---Was that including BMS and charger? -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John A. Evans - N0HJ Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:50 PM To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu Subject: Re: LionEV battery packs and vehicles No response yet from Amp Mobile Conversions, but I did get a response back from both LionEV and EV America. LionEV said that the cost of a typical pack that would yield 100 mile range would be about $20,000. According to the person who responded to me, they get a real good tax cut if the batteries go into newly made vehicles, which is why they are selling vehicles now. As for conversions, the tax credits aren't there, hence the high prices, which should come down in a few years. EV America gave a rough price of $10-15K for a pack, but didn't specify model, etc. At any rate, it basically is still out of the neighborhood for me - Colorado has a nice tax credit which should cover the expense of conversion for me, but I would need to spread it out over 4-5 years. $15,000 means the carryover would be beyond the 5 year limit for me for the total conversion, so I need to look at the standard lead-acid solutions for now. Timothy Balcer wrote: > It's been two days.. gimme gimme! :-) >
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--- Begin Message ---Yeah, I thought IGBT's might be the one thats I needed. But how do forklift scr's work? All I want to do is turn voltage on and off really fast. I guess there really is just no way to do it without hight tech electronics. could not the igbt just be in line with the motor and batteries switched on and off by a gate current? Im well aware of the problems involved with real controllers, it just seems like a solid state on/off switch could be rigged up without any bells or whistles. Also, for anyone who was wondering (Dan) an IGBT is well... an umm... you can look it up. Thanks, Paul
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--- Begin Message ---[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > But how do forklift scr's work? To use an SCR in a DC circuit you need to provide additional commutation circuitry to force the current to 0 when you want the SCR to turn back off. The basic circuit for doing this is known as the "Jones Chopper"; it is described in Bob Brandt's book "Build Your Own EV", and it is covered briefly here: <http://power.eng.mcmaster.ca/szabados/courses/4pk4/notes/parinv.pdf> In the GE EV1 forklift control one large SCR acts as the switch between the battery and motor, while a couple of smaller ones connect the commutating capacitor as required to charge it up and then reconnect it so that it discharges through the main SCR at the right time, and in the opposite direction as the motor current, so that the SCR turns off. As I recall, you are looking at doing a budget 48V vehicle, so you might look around to see if you can't scrounge a used controller from a 48V lift truck to use. Building one on your own would be costly since fist-sized SCRs aren't all that cheap or common and neither are the commutating capacitors (you can't just use electrolytics for this). If you haven't yet done so, have a look at the Project ForkenSwift site <http://www.forkenswift.com/>. It seems to me that your project is quite similar. Cheers, Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---John Foster wrote:I agree in the long run it's best to eliminate parasitic loads. But it might take awhile for new low parasitic products to show up in automotive quantity and price points, in the meantime the Freedom, Sunrise, Tesla et all, will need to use regular hi parasitic parts, or spend a lot of time sourcing & adapting special parts.I don't know what Tesla etc. are doing, but I know that in the Sunrise, I am taking the opportunity to design it to get rid of these pointless parasitic loads.Here are some examples that can be applied to anyone's EV project: - Use LEDs, not light bulbs. - Use real switches to turn things on, not computers that must be powered all the time to sense the switches. - Use clocks, radios, speedometers, etc. that are designed for battery operation (e.g. a car clock draws milliamps; a battery operated LCD clock draws microamps). - If you need a microcomputer, use one intended for low power use. (for example, the micros in solar calculators). - Run low clock speeds (KHz, not MHz). - Don't leave things running when they serve no purpose.Any balancer or BMS you have is a parasitic draw too.Yes; but properly designed, it should be negligible. It should also not have failure modes that load down a battery and murders it.In any case parasitic loads aren't the problems I've seen. The main problem is the key left on; dome lights, parking lights, instruments etc: all the typical things which give a dead battery in an ICE car, plus contactors, leaking vacum pumps, LED graphs etc.Of course, one solution is to eliminate the key! Use an RF key fob. Get in the car, it's on. Get out of the car, it's automatically off. Or have a weight switch in the seat that shuts it off if you get out. Or arrange it so when you plug it in to recharge, it turns off.I agree with the "secret mode" thing, I got annoyed in a Think!, just trying to turn it on!It is easy to design bad user interfaces; so we get lots of them. It is harder to design good ones!-- Ring the bells that still can ring Forget the perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen -- Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message --- Nothing was mentioned of BMS or charger, so I suspect not, though there may be some power management/protection circuitry built into the packs. As soon as I saw the price, I stopped asking more questions. It will certainly be worth watching these progress over the next few years though.john David S wrote:Was that including BMS and charger?-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John A. Evans - N0HJ Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:50 PM To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu Subject: Re: LionEV battery packs and vehiclesNo response yet from Amp Mobile Conversions, but I did get a response back from both LionEV and EV America. LionEV said that the cost of a typical pack that would yield 100 mile range would be about $20,000. According to the person who responded to me, they get a real good tax cut if the batteries go into newly made vehicles, which is why they are selling vehicles now. As for conversions, the tax credits aren't there, hence the high prices, which should come down in a few years.EV America gave a rough price of $10-15K for a pack, but didn't specify model, etc.At any rate, it basically is still out of the neighborhood for me - Colorado has a nice tax credit which should cover the expense of conversion for me, but I would need to spread it out over 4-5 years. $15,000 means the carryover would be beyond the 5 year limit for me for the total conversion, so I need to look at the standard lead-acid solutions for now.Timothy Balcer wrote:It's been two days.. gimme gimme! :-)
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--- Begin Message ---On 19 Jul 2007 at 16:43, Joseph T. wrote: > I've been getting less e-mails; is this a problem with the server or > are there just less e-mails? I haven't heard from anyone lately that his or her messages aren't getting through, so I assume it's just lower traffic. The EVDL traffic varies, and I've never been able to discern any particular pattern except that weekends and holidays are usually a bit slower than weekdays. People post when something catches their interest. Threads feed on themselves. Sometimes the flames actually die down, giving us a good opportunity to toast some marshmallows. ;-)
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--- Begin Message ---hehe that's rich. I know what an IGBT is. I plan to use them. you didn't.and from what I understand they can be used rather simply. a pwm, an IGBT driver and the IGBTs (caps etc). and they are not terribly expensive either. Otmar said the IGBTs in the zilla 1K cost him 165$ and 1000amps is way too much for a normal car. As I understand it, higher than the typical 100-150v is more important than amps so the car can do freeway speeds too instead of just initial strong acceleration.the trick is to connect it right and watch for high current. but with the right knowledge it should be a simple circuitand the parts relatively cheap. others have succesfully built controllers themselves.a shame that noone has yet made a good simple robust design that everyone can make but perhaps that will happen. something like a 300V 300A spec would be nice I believe. but hey, what do I know :)Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Yeah, I thought IGBT's might be the one thats I needed. But how do forklift scr's work? All I want to do is turn voltage on and off really fast. I guess there really is just no way to do it without hight tech electronics. could not the igbt just be in line with the motor and batteries switched on and off by a gate current? Im well aware of the problems involved with real controllers, it just seems like a solid state on/off switch could be rigged up without any bells or whistles. Also, for anyone who was wondering (Dan) an IGBT is well... an umm... you can look it up. Thanks, Paul
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--- Begin Message --->the trick is to connect it right and watch for high >current. but with >the right knowledge it should be a simple circuit >and the parts relatively cheap. Yep, it must be pretty simple and cheap, that's why we see a flood of EV controls coming from China (since it's so easy they should be cranking them out by now!). Two problems, it's not cheap and easy and there is not a big enough market to create these controls. If there's money to be made I'm sure the Chinese would be cranking these out in high volume. That's the problem, there is not a big market for these controls to bring down the price in volume. When you produce controls in lower volume you have to spread out the engineering and manufacturing cost to cover your expenses. Knowing what it takes to produce a control, I realize that people like Rich Rudman and Otmar aren't making big bucks, just producing a product in low volume to serve the EV market. When you actually design and manufacture a control like this you'll know what I mean concerning low volume cost. A good comparison would be the PC. You can buy a nice high performance desktop for $300 to $400 bucks new. Imagine what it would cost if you were producing 1000 PC's, contracting out all of the individual circuit boards and also hand building many of the parts manually (not automated assembly, which you CANT do with a Zilla control). I guess I'm just rambling, but I know the time involved in producing low volume controls (I have put together many low volume prototypes of my 2HP BLDC control for the transportation market which is just starting to order higher volumes of controls, the first 100 were very expensive and the next 1000 will still be very costly do to the low volume manufacturing). Once they get up to the 10k to 20k volume they will be quite a bit cheaper, but will still cost quite a bit because they are not being produced in the 1 million quantity (probably 1/3 the cost!!). So, my advice is to put in the sweat equity and see what it actually costs to produce something at the cost you envision. Good luck! Rod --- Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > hehe that's rich. I know what an IGBT is. I plan to > use them. you didn't. > and from what I understand they can be used rather > simply. a pwm, an > IGBT driver and the IGBTs (caps etc). and they are > not terribly > expensive either. > Otmar said the IGBTs in the zilla 1K cost him 165$ > and 1000amps is way > too much for a normal car. As I understand it, > higher than the typical > 100-150v is more important than amps so the car can > do freeway speeds > too instead of just initial strong acceleration. > > the trick is to connect it right and watch for high > current. but with > the right knowledge it should be a simple circuit > and the parts relatively cheap. > > others have succesfully built controllers > themselves. > a shame that noone has yet made a good simple robust > design that > everyone can make but perhaps that will happen. > something like a 300V 300A spec would be nice I > believe. but hey, what > do I know :) > > Dan > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Yeah, I thought IGBT's might be the one thats I > needed. But how do > > forklift scr's work? All I want to do is turn > voltage on and off really > > fast. I guess there really is just no way to do it > without hight tech > > electronics. could not the igbt just be in line > with the motor and > > batteries switched on and off by a gate current? > Im well aware of the > > problems involved with real controllers, it just > seems like a solid state > > on/off switch could be rigged up without any bells > or whistles. > > > > Also, for anyone who was wondering (Dan) an IGBT > is well... an umm... you > > can look it up. > > > > Thanks, > > Paul > > > > > > > >
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--- Begin Message ---I have had it. My pack in my Destiny2000 solar paneled conversion of a Pontiac Fiero gets me 50 miles on a charge. I have never been stranded by my pack anywhere. I have been stranded by my auxiliary battery. I don't have a DC to DC converter and even though my Trojan maintenance free battery is great, but, it simply is very limited. If I have to drive at night in rain I can only go about 10 miles before the battery craps out. I need a DC to DC converter. I tried to use the IOTA 35. That didn't work. My pack is 108 volt pack and somehow that isn't enough for the IOTA35. Just tell me what I should buy that works with my 18 Trojan 6 volt batteries? What is the best choice? Please. Joe Lado
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--- Begin Message --- First off congrats to KC, WZ and all that made the Wayland Invites a HUGE success!!!We're all still bummin we couldn't make the trip. Friday night I ended up Jammin at a hotel bar in Kentucky with the one and only Fingers Taylor from the Coral Reefer band. Hopefully tomorrow night will ease the EV withdrawls a bit as AGNS returns to the strip for some test and tune. 4 new motors, 2 wheel drive, 16 new DEKA bats, and 575 ft-lbs of torque should get her off the line and scare the pants off the rice rocket riders. Can Denis keep her on the straight and narrow? We added an antique "Ching Ching" bicycle bell, an uga horn, and a pink and white wicker basket for good luck.The Electropolitan may make the trip as she has received a new 3" high strength driveshaft. OJ is sitting home till date night (Saturday).Shawn Lawless ________________________________________________________________________AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
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--- Begin Message ---In effect, all modern controller are is a big switch that turns on and off really quickly. The "bells and whistles" are a trival cost compared to the rest of the controller. Look how much a new Curtis controller costs, these have no bells or whistles (ok, it makes a whistling sound at low speed, but this is done to protect the FETs). Compared to most electronic devices, the Curtis controllers are sold with very little markup. They are not dirt cheap, because you can't get the basic functionality any cheaper. > Yeah, I thought IGBT's might be the one thats I needed. But how do > forklift scr's work? All I want to do is turn voltage on and off really > fast. I guess there really is just no way to do it without hight tech > electronics. could not the igbt just be in line with the motor and > batteries switched on and off by a gate current? Im well aware of the > problems involved with real controllers, it just seems like a solid state > on/off switch could be rigged up without any bells or whistles. > > Also, for anyone who was wondering (Dan) an IGBT is well... an umm... you > can look it up. > > Thanks, > Paul > > -- If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---http://www.belktronix.com/isodcdc.html On 7/19/07, Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I have had it. My pack in my Destiny2000 solar paneled conversion of a Pontiac Fiero gets me 50 miles on a charge. I have never been stranded by my pack anywhere. I have been stranded by my auxiliary battery. I don't have a DC to DC converter and even though my Trojan maintenance free battery is great, but, it simply is very limited. If I have to drive at night in rain I can only go about 10 miles before the battery craps out. I need a DC to DC converter. I tried to use the IOTA 35. That didn't work. My pack is 108 volt pack and somehow that isn't enough for the IOTA35. Just tell me what I should buy that works with my 18 Trojan 6 volt batteries? What is the best choice? Please. Joe Lado-- If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen. -----Samuel Adams
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--- Begin Message ---Oh.. not much as it seams here... Please keep us informed as the amount of your cash that turns into spendy Smoke... This aughta be good... I'll bring Hershies and Grammcrakers to the IGBT roasting party. 300 amps and 300 volts... Not even Curtis amps.... Hoo ho ho... Good one there... I can run that fast....and I am a fat old man....This might be good for a 750 lbs NEV.... You need more amps. Madman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Simple Controller > hehe that's rich. I know what an IGBT is. I plan to use them. you didn't. > and from what I understand they can be used rather simply. a pwm, an > IGBT driver and the IGBTs (caps etc). and they are not terribly > expensive either. > Otmar said the IGBTs in the zilla 1K cost him 165$ and 1000amps is way > too much for a normal car. As I understand it, higher than the typical > 100-150v is more important than amps so the car can do freeway speeds > too instead of just initial strong acceleration. > > the trick is to connect it right and watch for high current. but with > the right knowledge it should be a simple circuit > and the parts relatively cheap. > > others have succesfully built controllers themselves. > a shame that noone has yet made a good simple robust design that > everyone can make but perhaps that will happen. > something like a 300V 300A spec would be nice I believe. but hey, what > do I know :) > > Dan > >
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--- Begin Message ---Hey Jeff, Paul, all I hadn't realized that the MTC is that long which does add more mass than the 7"ers I'm more familar with. I am going to have to weigh me an ADC8 though as 106 lbs (from NetGains info) seems low from what I remember having weighed them. Stuff like this isn't a main concern or better said hadn't been a main issue in any given day at the shop 8^) Before I go on I did want to say that I still have a Prestolite shirt in my closet! It's seen better days and has been finally cast into the "my work side" but I still wear it! I'm born and raised Prestolite so to speak and love most of the designs and in fact they really changed the game in the forklift business. That is not to say that I thought EVery one of their motor types was suited to the job and IMO some designs were not as good as others lets say. Our discussion about the MKZ's is an example. Just wanted to recap, that I am a huge fan of (almost all) Prestolites 8^) In general, I try to be some sort of motor "consumer reports" for people here and do take that responsabilty seriously. Sometimes due to time restraints or lack of hands on experience I shoot from the hip. I wouldn't say I'm Doc Holiday but I'm getting pretty good at looking at a motor and hitting a decent targeted guess 8^) Before I left today I measured some stuff and thought I'd follow through with some thoughts on this MTC vs the ADC8. The brass used on the ADC8 holders is .020 thicker than that used on the MTC. It also has a bridge between the brushes and acts to keep the holder solid and straight under heated conditions. The ADC brush is 30 grams and the MGP brush was 26.5 grames. The ADC brush leads are also a tad thicker than the MGP 12H. If the MTC is a cabled type brush leaded motor (which I'm sure it is) then the leads are equal. The board used on the Prestolite brush ring would be half that of the ADC's and is subject to warping if over heated. Both are subject to rivit stretch allowing the holders to get floppy but the Prestolites have a little more issue here. One of the biggest issues concern is how the brush leads and brushes connect to the holder. Prestolites use a long "L" bracket which bends up from the bottom plate of the two piece holder setup. The ADC uses two short "L" bracket, one on top and then one on bottom. This single bent "L" bracket is a much weaker joint. The ADC8 armatures use the same appx comm O.D. as the 6.7" and the L91. The L91 and ADC8 motors use the same ring in fact. The comms are pretty close in size to the MTC sized Prestolites so I don't think the 8 suffers from to much an RPM abilities compared to the MTC's. Another "feeling" I have is the 8"ers have a lot more open airways (coils arent so packed in) to it allowing the fan to draw more air through the motor which would offer a longer duty to it, if I'm correct. It also has a much larger fan. IMO when you add up all the "little" things it starts to make a bigger differnce. This is the basic "info" or "guess" I try to relate to when posting, that aren't in graphs or general info sheets. As I stated Keith at Dutchmans has an new MTC and he wants to sell it (wants a 9") but it looks like crap from sitting and has like a dozen checked inspection stamps on it lmao! Maybe I can talk him into letting me spuce it up for him and I'll do a MTC 101 and I could put it all up next to the ADC8 stuff. Anyway I do concede the MTC is bigger than I previously thought but I'd still say given a choice I'd take an 8" hands down 8^P Let me put it this way, I think Killacycle might do well, probably EVen better with the MTC's over the L91's but I doubt that White Zombie would have done anywhere near as well as it did last weekend using a pair of MTC's (even upgraded, lol) 8^P I actually wrote Mike to say jump on the car if the deal was right as the MTC is a great motor. Anyway maybe I was still all hopped up from the races and still in the "My motors can kick your motors ass" mode 8^o I'll try to keep the attidute at the track from now on... I said try, hehe. BTW, about the 7 1/8" I thinks it's kinda what happens as you grow up. Have you seen a Hostess cupcake or a Reeses peanut butter cup this days? Cause they ain't as big as they used to be when I was younger 8^P Anyway I guess that's it for now. Had fun Cya Jim Husted Hi-Torque Electric ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
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--- Begin Message ---On 7/19/07, John A. Evans - N0HJ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:No response yet from Amp Mobile Conversions, but I did get a response back from both LionEV and EV America. LionEV said that the cost of a typical pack that would yield 100 mile range would be about $20,000. According to the person who responded to me, they get a real good tax cut if the batteries go into newly made vehicles, which is why they are selling vehicles now. As for conversions, the tax credits aren't there, hence the high prices, which should come down in a few years. EV America gave a rough price of $10-15K for a pack, but didn't specify model, etc. At any rate, it basically is still out of the neighborhood for me - Colorado has a nice tax credit which should cover the expense of conversion for me, but I would need to spread it out over 4-5 years. $15,000 means the carryover would be beyond the 5 year limit for me for the total conversion, so I need to look at the standard lead-acid solutions for now.. . . That doesn't sound right at all. They are going to be selling the Accent for 30k. Assuming they get them at 10k new, thats +20k for a completed car. It makes no sense that a car that can go 200 miles on a charge (which is what is claimed in the advertising) costs a 20k premium, and the PACK costs the same (twice as much, according to the LionEV info) when purchased separately. Maybe they don't want to sell packs. Logically their packs are costing something like $5k or less, given those prices for a complete conversion. Are they bumping the price to way over retail to discourage folks? --Timothy
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--- Begin Message ---OK Paul.. It won't work. A SCR latches on and can only be turned off at a zero crossing..aka if you have AC this happens every 16.67 Miliseconds.. Doesn't happen very often on DC... So you have to make a seprate Gate commutation circuit that makes a very short low power negative going spike that DOES give the main stage a Zero cross. These circuits have to be ballenced with the proper inductance to work at all power loads and levels of the main SCR will Run a Way if if can't be commutated off. All SCR controllers have this designed into them. It's also why controller designers don't use them anymore. Fets and IGBTs can be controlled with a simple gate drive circuit, and you can almost drive one or two with a Micro's output pins. Really simple control concepts. But.. once you get over a certain amount of power.. you need gate drives and Amps and buffers to slam the gates on and off, And most want some form of current control so you don't blow up your transitors if you ask for tto much power and they can't deliver. About this time it gets really complicated... All this can be looked up on the Power silicon and control websites at IXYS and The TI power supply and control website's... it's not worth me laying it all out.. I have done so many years ago on this EV list.... It's a matter of doing your home work and not bugging the List Guys that do it for a living. Trust us.. You can't do it cheap and simple.. We have tried, and have boxes full of blown Igs and Fets and Bipolars, and SCRs... And GTOs. I can make a DC speed controller with a IGBT half bridge and a Gate chip and NE555 timer chip... some of my first controllers were not much more than that. They did not last very long. Unless you are really serious about power control you really should trust those of us who have been there and still have the Scars and pain of learning. That goes fro you also Troll Dan... we are wasting Ev band width.. trying to get you guys off this list to stop saying you can do with with a paper clips and angry Rodents. Oh yea I have seen the Tri Zilla run.. so that photo...is for real. Off to Braking IGBTs for a living so you don't have to. Madman ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:38 AM Subject: Simple Controller > I know controllers have been beat to death here. From Zillas to homemade > controllers. But can someone please sum it all up for me. Why can't I use > a PWM signal, amplified through a motor driver to switch a high power SCR? > Is this how the old SCR controllers work so can I just use an scr big > enough for the voltage and current I want to handle? Just looking for the > simplest solid state possible. > Im sure everyone is sick of controller talk for a while but I must have > missed this explanation. > Thanks, > Paul >
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--- Begin Message ---From: Joseph Lado > I have had it. I have been stranded by my auxilary battery. I don't > have a DC to DC converter... If I have to drive at night in rain I can > only go about 10 miles before the battery craps out. I need a DC to DC > converter. I tried to use the IOTA 35. That didn't work. My pack is > 108 volt pack and somehow that isn't enough for the IOTA35. The Iota is really a 120vac input supply. It rectifies this to produce 160 volts DC. Your 108 volt pack is much less than this -- too low for the Iota to work acceptably. > Just tell me what I should buy that works with my 18 Trojan 6 volt > batteries? What is the best choice? "Best" is a judgement call. But if it were me, I'd look for a pair of 48v input, 13.5v output DC/DC converters. These are very common, as 48vdc is widely used in industry and telephone systems. Use two of them, each powered by half your pack (108v/2 = 54v; these converters actually work from 36-72vdc). Two converters also provides redundancy; if one fails, the other still provides 12v power. -- "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James -- Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
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