EV Digest 7042
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Simple Controller
by "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fast Charging
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Number of E-mails
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Zivan (NG2?)
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
by "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Simple Controller
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
by "David S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Simple Controller
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV's need sleep mode
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
by "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Number of E-mails
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: LED headlights- new development!
by Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Simple Controller
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Simple Controller
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Simple Controller
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Tell Me Which DC to DC Converter I Should Use
by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) AGNS back to the track, FINALLY!!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Simple Controller
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Tell Me Which DC to DC Converter I Should Use
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Simple Controller
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 4002 vs. ADC 8"
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Simple Controller
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Tell Me Which DC to DC Converter I Should Use
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
SCR - Silicon Controlled Rectifier - use wikipedia and see if you can
find more details, if interested.
john
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
what's an SCR?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:38 AM 7/19/2007, Lee Hart wrote:
I think I mentioned this before to John, but for the benefit of the
rest of the list...
You can replace the special resistor on the Rudman regulators with a
standard 10w or 20w ceramic tube resistor. This type consists of a
hollow ceramic tube, with the resistance wire wound on it, a
terminal on each end, and a ceramic glase over it for insulation.
Note that this is only for the OLD style regulators. Not the current
version. (I have MKIIC regs)
Route a copper tube through the center of each one. Pump water (or
oil or something) through them all. This carries away the heat
neatly, with no need for fans or heatsinks.
Frankly, I find that mounting a little CPU fan, and plugging it into
the connector on the reg is a LOT easier than routing a cooling line
all over the place, adding pump, radiator, etc...
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been getting less e-mails; is this a problem with the server or
are there just less e-mails?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Lee for all your different charge control methods. :)
On 7/19/07, storm connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lee,
That is the most succinct description of charge control I've seen! An
amplification of one of your points, having a timer on the charger can
be a butt saver. If all else fails or the monitor gets distracted, at
least the cooking time is limited.
On 7/18/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joseph T. wrote:
> > So what chargers are appropriate for AGM batteries?
>
> It's not so much of an appropriate "charger" -- it's a matter of setting
> up whatever charger you have to produce the right charging algorithm.
> Even a really crude, simple, stupid charger can do a good job if
> carefully set up and monitored. Conversely, a very expensive
> sophisticated charger can still screw up and fry the batteries if
> programmed wrong.
>
> Here's the bottom line: You need to know how many amphours you took out
> of the batteries. Put back that amount, plus about 5% more. batteries
> will be full charged, with just a bit more overcharging for equalization
> and balancing.
>
> Now, how do you find this point?
>
> 1. Amphour counting: Put back 105% of what was taken out.
>
> 2. Voltage level detect: Charge until voltage rises to about 2.45v/cell.
> (Assumes the charger's current drops off as it approaches full
> charge.)
>
> 3. DV/DT: Charge until voltage stops rising. (Assumes the charger
> regulates current at the end of a charge cycle.)
>
> 4. Current level detect: Charge until current falls below about 2% of
> the battery's amphour capacity. (Assumes the charger limits voltage
> at the end of a charge cycle).
>
> 5. DI/DT: Charge until the current stops falling. (Assumes the charger
> regulates voltage at the end of a charge).
>
> 6. Time-based: Charge for a fixed length of time. (Assumes the charging
> current automatically tapers off when the battery nears full).
>
> 7. Temperature-based: Stop charging when battery temperature starts
> to rise.
>
> Automatic chargers generally use one or more of these methods. But you
> can also do it manually, or set up a simple system to accomplish the
> same result.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No response yet from Amp Mobile Conversions, but I did get a response
back from both LionEV and EV America. LionEV said that the cost of a
typical pack that would yield 100 mile range would be about $20,000.
According to the person who responded to me, they get a real good tax
cut if the batteries go into newly made vehicles, which is why they are
selling vehicles now. As for conversions, the tax credits aren't there,
hence the high prices, which should come down in a few years.
EV America gave a rough price of $10-15K for a pack, but didn't specify
model, etc.
At any rate, it basically is still out of the neighborhood for me -
Colorado has a nice tax credit which should cover the expense of
conversion for me, but I would need to spread it out over 4-5 years.
$15,000 means the carryover would be beyond the 5 year limit for me for
the total conversion, so I need to look at the standard lead-acid
solutions for now.
Timothy Balcer wrote:
It's been two days.. gimme gimme! :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh no shortage of reasons. For one, an SCR is a latch, once it turns on
it won't turn off until the current drops to zero which works fine for
AC sources but not DC. IGBT/MOSFETs are the switches you'd use.
At these power levels, any flaw in the switching waveform- shape or
voltage- can fry the $$$ transistors immediately. Now assuming a
perfect gate driver were available, there's part selection, major
thermal issues, and an issue of how you get hundreds of amps from a
thick cable, across a thin foil PCB, and back out through another cable
without anything in between melting.
There is no "shortcut" for a cheap controller for a high power problem,
even if you want to discard all the bells and whistles it will not make
the basic task much easier or cheaper.
Danny
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
what's an SCR?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I know controllers have been beat to death here. From Zillas to homemade
controllers. But can someone please sum it all up for me. Why can't I
use
a PWM signal, amplified through a motor driver to switch a high power
SCR?
Is this how the old SCR controllers work so can I just use an scr big
enough for the voltage and current I want to handle? Just looking for
the
simplest solid state possible.
Im sure everyone is sick of controller talk for a while but I must have
missed this explanation.
Thanks,
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Was that including BMS and charger?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John A. Evans - N0HJ
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
No response yet from Amp Mobile Conversions, but I did get a response
back from both LionEV and EV America. LionEV said that the cost of a
typical pack that would yield 100 mile range would be about $20,000.
According to the person who responded to me, they get a real good tax
cut if the batteries go into newly made vehicles, which is why they are
selling vehicles now. As for conversions, the tax credits aren't there,
hence the high prices, which should come down in a few years.
EV America gave a rough price of $10-15K for a pack, but didn't specify
model, etc.
At any rate, it basically is still out of the neighborhood for me -
Colorado has a nice tax credit which should cover the expense of
conversion for me, but I would need to spread it out over 4-5 years.
$15,000 means the carryover would be beyond the 5 year limit for me for
the total conversion, so I need to look at the standard lead-acid
solutions for now.
Timothy Balcer wrote:
> It's been two days.. gimme gimme! :-)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I thought IGBT's might be the one thats I needed. But how do
forklift scr's work? All I want to do is turn voltage on and off really
fast. I guess there really is just no way to do it without hight tech
electronics. could not the igbt just be in line with the motor and
batteries switched on and off by a gate current? Im well aware of the
problems involved with real controllers, it just seems like a solid state
on/off switch could be rigged up without any bells or whistles.
Also, for anyone who was wondering (Dan) an IGBT is well... an umm... you
can look it up.
Thanks,
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> But how do forklift scr's work?
To use an SCR in a DC circuit you need to provide additional commutation
circuitry to force the current to 0 when you want the SCR to turn back
off. The basic circuit for doing this is known as the "Jones Chopper";
it is described in Bob Brandt's book "Build Your Own EV", and it is
covered briefly here:
<http://power.eng.mcmaster.ca/szabados/courses/4pk4/notes/parinv.pdf>
In the GE EV1 forklift control one large SCR acts as the switch between
the battery and motor, while a couple of smaller ones connect the
commutating capacitor as required to charge it up and then reconnect it
so that it discharges through the main SCR at the right time, and in the
opposite direction as the motor current, so that the SCR turns off.
As I recall, you are looking at doing a budget 48V vehicle, so you might
look around to see if you can't scrounge a used controller from a 48V
lift truck to use. Building one on your own would be costly since
fist-sized SCRs aren't all that cheap or common and neither are the
commutating capacitors (you can't just use electrolytics for this).
If you haven't yet done so, have a look at the Project ForkenSwift site
<http://www.forkenswift.com/>. It seems to me that your project is
quite similar.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Foster wrote:
I agree in the long run it's best to eliminate parasitic loads. But it
might take awhile for new low parasitic products to show up in
automotive quantity and price points, in the meantime the Freedom,
Sunrise, Tesla et all, will need to use regular hi parasitic parts, or
spend a lot of time sourcing & adapting special parts.
I don't know what Tesla etc. are doing, but I know that in the Sunrise,
I am taking the opportunity to design it to get rid of these pointless
parasitic loads.
Here are some examples that can be applied to anyone's EV project:
- Use LEDs, not light bulbs.
- Use real switches to turn things on, not computers that must be
powered all the time to sense the switches.
- Use clocks, radios, speedometers, etc. that are designed for
battery operation (e.g. a car clock draws milliamps; a battery
operated LCD clock draws microamps).
- If you need a microcomputer, use one intended for low power use.
(for example, the micros in solar calculators).
- Run low clock speeds (KHz, not MHz).
- Don't leave things running when they serve no purpose.
Any balancer or BMS you have is a parasitic draw too.
Yes; but properly designed, it should be negligible. It should also not
have failure modes that load down a battery and murders it.
In any case parasitic loads aren't the problems I've seen. The main
problem is the key left on; dome lights, parking lights, instruments
etc: all the typical things which give a dead battery in an ICE car,
plus contactors, leaking vacum pumps, LED graphs etc.
Of course, one solution is to eliminate the key! Use an RF key fob. Get
in the car, it's on. Get out of the car, it's automatically off. Or have
a weight switch in the seat that shuts it off if you get out. Or arrange
it so when you plug it in to recharge, it turns off.
I agree with the "secret mode" thing, I got annoyed in a Think!, just
trying to turn it on!
It is easy to design bad user interfaces; so we get lots of them. It is
harder to design good ones!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nothing was mentioned of BMS or charger, so I suspect not, though there
may be some power management/protection circuitry built into the packs.
As soon as I saw the price, I stopped asking more questions. It will
certainly be worth watching these progress over the next few years though.
john
David S wrote:
Was that including BMS and charger?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John A. Evans - N0HJ
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
No response yet from Amp Mobile Conversions, but I did get a response
back from both LionEV and EV America. LionEV said that the cost of a
typical pack that would yield 100 mile range would be about $20,000.
According to the person who responded to me, they get a real good tax
cut if the batteries go into newly made vehicles, which is why they are
selling vehicles now. As for conversions, the tax credits aren't there,
hence the high prices, which should come down in a few years.
EV America gave a rough price of $10-15K for a pack, but didn't specify
model, etc.
At any rate, it basically is still out of the neighborhood for me -
Colorado has a nice tax credit which should cover the expense of
conversion for me, but I would need to spread it out over 4-5 years.
$15,000 means the carryover would be beyond the 5 year limit for me for
the total conversion, so I need to look at the standard lead-acid
solutions for now.
Timothy Balcer wrote:
It's been two days.. gimme gimme! :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Jul 2007 at 16:43, Joseph T. wrote:
> I've been getting less e-mails; is this a problem with the server or
> are there just less e-mails?
I haven't heard from anyone lately that his or her messages aren't getting
through, so I assume it's just lower traffic. The EVDL traffic varies, and
I've
never been able to discern any particular pattern except that weekends and
holidays are usually a bit slower than weekdays.
People post when something catches their interest. Threads feed on
themselves. Sometimes the flames actually die down, giving us a good
opportunity to toast some marshmallows. ;-)
--- End Message ---
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hehe that's rich. I know what an IGBT is. I plan to use them. you didn't.
and from what I understand they can be used rather simply. a pwm, an
IGBT driver and the IGBTs (caps etc). and they are not terribly
expensive either.
Otmar said the IGBTs in the zilla 1K cost him 165$ and 1000amps is way
too much for a normal car. As I understand it, higher than the typical
100-150v is more important than amps so the car can do freeway speeds
too instead of just initial strong acceleration.
the trick is to connect it right and watch for high current. but with
the right knowledge it should be a simple circuit
and the parts relatively cheap.
others have succesfully built controllers themselves.
a shame that noone has yet made a good simple robust design that
everyone can make but perhaps that will happen.
something like a 300V 300A spec would be nice I believe. but hey, what
do I know :)
Dan
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yeah, I thought IGBT's might be the one thats I needed. But how do
forklift scr's work? All I want to do is turn voltage on and off really
fast. I guess there really is just no way to do it without hight tech
electronics. could not the igbt just be in line with the motor and
batteries switched on and off by a gate current? Im well aware of the
problems involved with real controllers, it just seems like a solid state
on/off switch could be rigged up without any bells or whistles.
Also, for anyone who was wondering (Dan) an IGBT is well... an umm... you
can look it up.
Thanks,
Paul
--- End Message ---
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* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>the trick is to connect it right and watch for high
>current. but with
>the right knowledge it should be a simple circuit
>and the parts relatively cheap.
Yep, it must be pretty simple and cheap, that's why we
see a flood of EV controls coming from China (since
it's so easy they should be cranking them out by
now!).
Two problems, it's not cheap and easy and there is not
a big enough market to create these controls. If
there's money to be made I'm sure the Chinese would be
cranking these out in high volume. That's the
problem, there is not a big market for these controls
to bring down the price in volume. When you produce
controls in lower volume you have to spread out the
engineering and manufacturing cost to cover your
expenses. Knowing what it takes to produce a control,
I realize that people like Rich Rudman and Otmar
aren't making big bucks, just producing a product in
low volume to serve the EV market. When you actually
design and manufacture a control like this you'll know
what I mean concerning low volume cost. A good
comparison would be the PC. You can buy a nice high
performance desktop for $300 to $400 bucks new.
Imagine what it would cost if you were producing 1000
PC's, contracting out all of the individual circuit
boards and also hand building many of the parts
manually (not automated assembly, which you CANT do
with a Zilla control).
I guess I'm just rambling, but I know the time
involved in producing low volume controls (I have put
together many low volume prototypes of my 2HP BLDC
control for the transportation market which is just
starting to order higher volumes of controls, the
first 100 were very expensive and the next 1000 will
still be very costly do to the low volume
manufacturing). Once they get up to the 10k to 20k
volume they will be quite a bit cheaper, but will
still cost quite a bit because they are not being
produced in the 1 million quantity (probably 1/3 the
cost!!).
So, my advice is to put in the sweat equity and see
what it actually costs to produce something at the
cost you envision.
Good luck!
Rod
--- Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hehe that's rich. I know what an IGBT is. I plan to
> use them. you didn't.
> and from what I understand they can be used rather
> simply. a pwm, an
> IGBT driver and the IGBTs (caps etc). and they are
> not terribly
> expensive either.
> Otmar said the IGBTs in the zilla 1K cost him 165$
> and 1000amps is way
> too much for a normal car. As I understand it,
> higher than the typical
> 100-150v is more important than amps so the car can
> do freeway speeds
> too instead of just initial strong acceleration.
>
> the trick is to connect it right and watch for high
> current. but with
> the right knowledge it should be a simple circuit
> and the parts relatively cheap.
>
> others have succesfully built controllers
> themselves.
> a shame that noone has yet made a good simple robust
> design that
> everyone can make but perhaps that will happen.
> something like a 300V 300A spec would be nice I
> believe. but hey, what
> do I know :)
>
> Dan
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Yeah, I thought IGBT's might be the one thats I
> needed. But how do
> > forklift scr's work? All I want to do is turn
> voltage on and off really
> > fast. I guess there really is just no way to do it
> without hight tech
> > electronics. could not the igbt just be in line
> with the motor and
> > batteries switched on and off by a gate current?
> Im well aware of the
> > problems involved with real controllers, it just
> seems like a solid state
> > on/off switch could be rigged up without any bells
> or whistles.
> >
> > Also, for anyone who was wondering (Dan) an IGBT
> is well... an umm... you
> > can look it up.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have had it. My pack in my Destiny2000 solar paneled conversion of a Pontiac
Fiero gets me 50 miles on a charge. I have never been stranded by my pack
anywhere. I have been stranded by my auxiliary battery. I don't have a DC to DC
converter and even though my Trojan maintenance free battery is great, but, it
simply is very limited. If I have to drive at night in rain I can only go about
10 miles before the battery craps out. I need a DC to DC converter. I tried to
use the IOTA 35. That didn't work. My pack is 108 volt pack and somehow that
isn't enough for the IOTA35. Just tell me what I should buy that works with my
18 Trojan 6 volt batteries? What is the best choice? Please. Joe Lado
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First off congrats to KC, WZ and all that made the Wayland Invites a
HUGE success!!!
We're all still bummin we couldn't make the trip. Friday night I ended
up Jammin at a hotel bar in Kentucky with the one and only Fingers
Taylor from the Coral Reefer band. Hopefully tomorrow night will ease
the EV withdrawls a bit as AGNS returns to the strip for some test and
tune. 4 new motors, 2 wheel drive, 16 new DEKA bats, and 575 ft-lbs
of torque should get her off the line and scare the pants off the rice
rocket riders. Can Denis keep her on the straight and narrow? We added
an antique "Ching Ching" bicycle bell, an uga horn, and a pink and
white wicker basket for good luck.
The Electropolitan may make the trip as she has received a new 3" high
strength driveshaft. OJ is sitting home till date night (Saturday).
Shawn Lawless
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In effect, all modern controller are is a big switch that turns on and off
really quickly.
The "bells and whistles" are a trival cost compared to the rest of the
controller. Look how much a new Curtis controller costs, these have no
bells or whistles (ok, it makes a whistling sound at low speed, but this
is done to protect the FETs).
Compared to most electronic devices, the Curtis controllers are sold with
very little markup. They are not dirt cheap, because you can't get the
basic functionality any cheaper.
> Yeah, I thought IGBT's might be the one thats I needed. But how do
> forklift scr's work? All I want to do is turn voltage on and off really
> fast. I guess there really is just no way to do it without hight tech
> electronics. could not the igbt just be in line with the motor and
> batteries switched on and off by a gate current? Im well aware of the
> problems involved with real controllers, it just seems like a solid state
> on/off switch could be rigged up without any bells or whistles.
>
> Also, for anyone who was wondering (Dan) an IGBT is well... an umm... you
> can look it up.
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.belktronix.com/isodcdc.html
On 7/19/07, Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have had it. My pack in my Destiny2000 solar paneled conversion of a Pontiac
Fiero gets me 50 miles on a charge. I have never been stranded by my pack
anywhere. I have been stranded by my auxiliary battery. I don't have a DC to DC
converter and even though my Trojan maintenance free battery is great, but, it
simply is very limited. If I have to drive at night in rain I can only go about
10 miles before the battery craps out. I need a DC to DC converter. I tried to
use the IOTA 35. That didn't work. My pack is 108 volt pack and somehow that
isn't enough for the IOTA35. Just tell me what I should buy that works with my
18 Trojan 6 volt batteries? What is the best choice? Please. Joe Lado
--
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in
peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the
hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may
posterity forget that you were our countrymen.
-----Samuel Adams
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh.. not much as it seams here...
Please keep us informed as the amount of your cash that turns into spendy
Smoke...
This aughta be good...
I'll bring Hershies and Grammcrakers to the IGBT roasting party.
300 amps and 300 volts... Not even Curtis amps.... Hoo ho ho... Good one
there...
I can run that fast....and I am a fat old man....This might be good for a
750 lbs NEV....
You need more amps.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: Simple Controller
> hehe that's rich. I know what an IGBT is. I plan to use them. you didn't.
> and from what I understand they can be used rather simply. a pwm, an
> IGBT driver and the IGBTs (caps etc). and they are not terribly
> expensive either.
> Otmar said the IGBTs in the zilla 1K cost him 165$ and 1000amps is way
> too much for a normal car. As I understand it, higher than the typical
> 100-150v is more important than amps so the car can do freeway speeds
> too instead of just initial strong acceleration.
>
> the trick is to connect it right and watch for high current. but with
> the right knowledge it should be a simple circuit
> and the parts relatively cheap.
>
> others have succesfully built controllers themselves.
> a shame that noone has yet made a good simple robust design that
> everyone can make but perhaps that will happen.
> something like a 300V 300A spec would be nice I believe. but hey, what
> do I know :)
>
> Dan
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jeff, Paul, all
I hadn't realized that the MTC is that long which does
add more mass than the 7"ers I'm more familar with. I
am going to have to weigh me an ADC8 though as 106 lbs
(from NetGains info) seems low from what I remember
having weighed them. Stuff like this isn't a main
concern or better said hadn't been a main issue in any
given day at the shop 8^)
Before I go on I did want to say that I still have a
Prestolite shirt in my closet! It's seen better days
and has been finally cast into the "my work side" but
I still wear it! I'm born and raised Prestolite so to
speak and love most of the designs and in fact they
really changed the game in the forklift business.
That is not to say that I thought EVery one of their
motor types was suited to the job and IMO some designs
were not as good as others lets say. Our discussion
about the MKZ's is an example. Just wanted to recap,
that I am a huge fan of (almost all) Prestolites 8^)
In general, I try to be some sort of motor "consumer
reports" for people here and do take that
responsabilty seriously. Sometimes due to time
restraints or lack of hands on experience I shoot from
the hip. I wouldn't say I'm Doc Holiday but I'm
getting pretty good at looking at a motor and hitting
a decent targeted guess 8^)
Before I left today I measured some stuff and thought
I'd follow through with some thoughts on this MTC vs
the ADC8.
The brass used on the ADC8 holders is .020 thicker
than that used on the MTC. It also has a bridge
between the brushes and acts to keep the holder solid
and straight under heated conditions. The ADC brush
is 30 grams and the MGP brush was 26.5 grames. The
ADC brush leads are also a tad thicker than the MGP
12H.
If the MTC is a cabled type brush leaded motor (which
I'm sure it is) then the leads are equal. The board
used on the Prestolite brush ring would be half that
of the ADC's and is subject to warping if over heated.
Both are subject to rivit stretch allowing the
holders to get floppy but the Prestolites have a
little more issue here.
One of the biggest issues concern is how the brush
leads and brushes connect to the holder. Prestolites
use a long "L" bracket which bends up from the bottom
plate of the two piece holder setup. The ADC uses two
short "L" bracket, one on top and then one on bottom.
This single bent "L" bracket is a much weaker joint.
The ADC8 armatures use the same appx comm O.D. as the
6.7" and the L91. The L91 and ADC8 motors use the
same ring in fact. The comms are pretty close in size
to the MTC sized Prestolites so I don't think the 8
suffers from to much an RPM abilities compared to the
MTC's.
Another "feeling" I have is the 8"ers have a lot more
open airways (coils arent so packed in) to it allowing
the fan to draw more air through the motor which would
offer a longer duty to it, if I'm correct. It also
has a much larger fan.
IMO when you add up all the "little" things it starts
to make a bigger differnce. This is the basic "info"
or "guess" I try to relate to when posting, that
aren't in graphs or general info sheets.
As I stated Keith at Dutchmans has an new MTC and he
wants to sell it (wants a 9") but it looks like crap
from sitting and has like a dozen checked inspection
stamps on it lmao! Maybe I can talk him into letting
me spuce it up for him and I'll do a MTC 101 and I
could put it all up next to the ADC8 stuff. Anyway I
do concede the MTC is bigger than I previously thought
but I'd still say given a choice I'd take an 8" hands
down 8^P
Let me put it this way, I think Killacycle might do
well, probably EVen better with the MTC's over the
L91's but I doubt that White Zombie would have done
anywhere near as well as it did last weekend using a
pair of MTC's (even upgraded, lol) 8^P
I actually wrote Mike to say jump on the car if the
deal was right as the MTC is a great motor. Anyway
maybe I was still all hopped up from the races and
still in the "My motors can kick your motors ass" mode
8^o I'll try to keep the attidute at the track from
now on... I said try, hehe.
BTW, about the 7 1/8" I thinks it's kinda what happens
as you grow up. Have you seen a Hostess cupcake or a
Reeses peanut butter cup this days? Cause they ain't
as big as they used to be when I was younger 8^P
Anyway I guess that's it for now.
Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7/19/07, John A. Evans - N0HJ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
No response yet from Amp Mobile Conversions, but I did get a response
back from both LionEV and EV America. LionEV said that the cost of a
typical pack that would yield 100 mile range would be about $20,000.
According to the person who responded to me, they get a real good tax
cut if the batteries go into newly made vehicles, which is why they are
selling vehicles now. As for conversions, the tax credits aren't there,
hence the high prices, which should come down in a few years.
EV America gave a rough price of $10-15K for a pack, but didn't specify
model, etc.
At any rate, it basically is still out of the neighborhood for me -
Colorado has a nice tax credit which should cover the expense of
conversion for me, but I would need to spread it out over 4-5 years.
$15,000 means the carryover would be beyond the 5 year limit for me for
the total conversion, so I need to look at the standard lead-acid
solutions for now.
. . .
That doesn't sound right at all.
They are going to be selling the Accent for 30k. Assuming they get
them at 10k new, thats +20k for a completed car.
It makes no sense that a car that can go 200 miles on a charge (which
is what is claimed in the advertising) costs a 20k premium, and the
PACK costs the same (twice as much, according to the LionEV info) when
purchased separately. Maybe they don't want to sell packs.
Logically their packs are costing something like $5k or less, given
those prices for a complete conversion. Are they bumping the price to
way over retail to discourage folks?
--Timothy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK Paul..
It won't work.
A SCR latches on and can only be turned off at a zero crossing..aka if you
have AC this happens every 16.67 Miliseconds..
Doesn't happen very often on DC...
So you have to make a seprate Gate commutation circuit that makes a very
short low power negative going spike that DOES give the main stage a Zero
cross. These circuits have to be ballenced with the proper inductance to
work at all power loads and levels of the main SCR will Run a Way if if
can't be commutated off.
All SCR controllers have this designed into them.
It's also why controller designers don't use them anymore.
Fets and IGBTs can be controlled with a simple gate drive circuit, and you
can almost drive one or two with a Micro's output pins. Really simple
control concepts.
But.. once you get over a certain amount of power.. you need gate drives and
Amps and buffers to slam the gates on and off, And most want some form of
current control so you don't blow up your transitors if you ask for tto
much power and they can't deliver.
About this time it gets really complicated...
All this can be looked up on the Power silicon and control websites at IXYS
and The TI power supply and control website's... it's not worth me laying it
all out.. I have done so many years ago on this EV list....
It's a matter of doing your home work and not bugging the List Guys that do
it for a living.
Trust us.. You can't do it cheap and simple.. We have tried, and have boxes
full of blown Igs and Fets and Bipolars, and SCRs... And GTOs.
I can make a DC speed controller with a IGBT half bridge and a Gate chip and
NE555 timer chip... some of my first controllers were not much more than
that.
They did not last very long.
Unless you are really serious about power control you really should trust
those of us who have been there and still have the Scars and pain of
learning.
That goes fro you also Troll Dan... we are wasting Ev band width.. trying to
get you guys off this list to stop saying you can do with with a paper clips
and angry Rodents.
Oh yea I have seen the Tri Zilla run.. so that photo...is for real.
Off to Braking IGBTs for a living so you don't have to.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:38 AM
Subject: Simple Controller
> I know controllers have been beat to death here. From Zillas to homemade
> controllers. But can someone please sum it all up for me. Why can't I use
> a PWM signal, amplified through a motor driver to switch a high power SCR?
> Is this how the old SCR controllers work so can I just use an scr big
> enough for the voltage and current I want to handle? Just looking for the
> simplest solid state possible.
> Im sure everyone is sick of controller talk for a while but I must have
> missed this explanation.
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Joseph Lado
> I have had it. I have been stranded by my auxilary battery. I don't
> have a DC to DC converter... If I have to drive at night in rain I can
> only go about 10 miles before the battery craps out. I need a DC to DC
> converter. I tried to use the IOTA 35. That didn't work. My pack is
> 108 volt pack and somehow that isn't enough for the IOTA35.
The Iota is really a 120vac input supply. It rectifies this to produce 160
volts DC. Your 108 volt pack is much less than this -- too low for the Iota to
work acceptably.
> Just tell me what I should buy that works with my 18 Trojan 6 volt
> batteries? What is the best choice?
"Best" is a judgement call. But if it were me, I'd look for a pair of 48v
input, 13.5v output DC/DC converters. These are very common, as 48vdc is widely
used in industry and telephone systems. Use two of them, each powered by half
your pack (108v/2 = 54v; these converters actually work from 36-72vdc). Two
converters also provides redundancy; if one fails, the other still provides 12v
power.
--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
