EV digest 7050

[Electric Vehicle Discussion List]

                            EV Digest 7050

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex motor?
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Dc to Dc ?s
        by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Dc to Dc ?s
        by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: EV1 Leasing Requirements ???
        by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) RE: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex mo
        tor?
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Driving in reverse, spastic moves
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex mo
        tor?
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: Driving in reverse, spastic moves
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: EV1 Leasing Requirements ???
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Tell Me Which DC to DC Converter I Should Use
        by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) RE: Driving in reverse, spastic moves
        by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: "Message truncated" problem
        by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Driving in reverse, spastic moves
        by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Speed Indication Issue - Toyota Yaris Conversion
        by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: message truncated
        by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: Driving in reverse, spastic moves
        by Jerry Wagner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Driving in reverse, spastic moves
        by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex motor?
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: Information needed please.
        by Mark Russo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) amps during normal driving
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Driving in reverse, spastic moves
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) html email
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Driving in reverse, spastic moves
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Speed Indication Issue - Toyota Yaris Conversion
        by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: amps during normal driving
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: Driving in reverse, spastic moves
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: EV1 Leasing Requirements ???
        by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) Re: amps during normal driving
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

--- Begin Message ---

Thanks for the info.  Exactly my plan (finding the resistance of the
field winding).  I'm trying to get an idea of how many amps the field
controller and field wiring has to handle, and the specs only give
total motor amps, not field current separately.  For now, I'm just
trying it with a 12 volt battery.  I spun the whole motor up at 12
volts, with jumper cables from my ICE car, and it handled it fine, so
I imagined that at that low voltage, the field current should be low
enough to measure without blowing up the DMM.  I could actually use a
big 6 volt L-16 to test it with too.

Z



On 7/23/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Are you just looking to get an idea of the resistance of the field winding
or...?

At any rate, if you only use a 12V battery, I'm pretty sure the field
winding will draw less than 20 Amps.  If you have a 6V battery, you could
start there.

The current draw of the field winding is pretty much linear with voltage
and is generally not effected much by the RPM of the motor.  So you could
measure it at 6V and multiply by 16 to get a good idea of what it would be
at 96V, or measure it at 12V and multiply by 8.

> Just wondering if I can measure field current with the 20A range on my
> DMM, or if I need a bigger ammeter.  It's just sitting on the table
> right now, and I don't have any of the final instrumentation yet, just
> playing around testing it.
>
> It's a 96 volt 20HP (cont) GE Sepex motor.  Big 300lb beast of a motor.
>
> Z
>
>


--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

" I am looking for a dc to dc in a hard to find input range, about 170 to
250 vdc.to run on a 216 volt nominal system"

Hold on a second. You need a DC/DC converter that'll run a 216 volt system?

That's massive!!!

On 7/23/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

one of the reasons I'm looking into making the electronics myself.
a controller should fit 'all' voltages, have a DCDC in it as well as
recharger
100-400v battery voltage. AC 110/220v output too just for show for when
you just have to power that washing machine on the road :)

peace... no peace :)

Dan

billb wrote:
> Hi Guys ,
> I am looking for a dc to dc in a hard to find input range, about 170
> to 250 vdc.to run on a 216 volt nominal system.  I have nice dc to dc
> converters for 120 vdc input and more for 300 vdc input but need the
> range in between with a 14 vdc output at 50 or more amps. Any
> suggestions?                          Thanks, Bill Brinsmead
>
>

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message --- You might try Belktronix, I've seen their name mentioned a few times on the list with positive comments. They are at http://www.belktronix.com/isodcdc.html

respectfully,
John

----- Original Message ----- From: "billb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 8:13 PM
Subject: Dc to Dc ?s

Hi Guys ,

I am looking for a dc to dc in a hard to find input range, about 170 to 250 vdc.to run on a 216 volt nominal system. I have nice dc to dc converters for 120 vdc input and more for 300 vdc input but need the range in between with a 14 vdc output at 50 or more amps. Any suggestions? Thanks, Bill Brinsmead

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

"Back when you could actually lease one, I'd heard the same thing.  You had
to have a 6 figure income and had to take a personality test to make sure
you had the "right" kind of personality to lease one."

Maybe that's why out of the 5,000 people on the waiting list only "50
people were willing to sign the paperwork."

On 7/23/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Back when you could actually lease one, I'd heard the same thing.  You had
to have a 6 figure income and had to take a personality test to make sure
you had the "right" kind of personality to lease one.

I just figured it was GMs way of limiting the number of acceptable
applicants.  I think they figured that way they could be justified when
they claimed that nobody wanted them.  Kind of backfired when, even with
the restrictions, they had many times as many "acceptable" applicants as
there were EV1s available.

Of course that doesn't stop them from claiming that nobody wanted them and
using the excuse that they could only lease 600 of them, convienently
failing to mention that they only made 600 available (or 650, whichever it
was).

I'd heard of one dealer that stopped taking names for their waiting list
because they already had over 600 qualified applicants and no more EV1s
were being made.

> Well...?
>
> Any EV1 leasees to comment...?
>
> On 7/22/07, Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Mel Gibson in "Who Killed the Electric Car" describes a greuling
>> interview, a resume required and locations of bodily tatoos :-O
>> Sounds like they did the full background investigation and maybe EVen
>> the endoscopy, doh :-O
>>
>> > Joseph T. wrote:
>> > <snip a bit>
>> > And your income had to be at least 100k to lease the car? And then you
>> > had to pass a test? I've never heard of these either. Anyone with soem
>> > real EV1 leasing experience?
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>


--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Field resistance of a 


Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 9:51 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex
motor?

Thanks for the info.  Exactly my plan (finding the resistance of the field
winding).  I'm trying to get an idea of how many amps the field controller
and field wiring has to handle, and the specs only give total motor amps,
not field current separately.  For now, I'm just trying it with a 12 volt
battery.  I spun the whole motor up at 12 volts, with jumper cables from my
ICE car, and it handled it fine, so I imagined that at that low voltage, the
field current should be low enough to measure without blowing up the DMM.  I
could actually use a big 6 volt L-16 to test it with too.

Z



On 7/23/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Are you just looking to get an idea of the resistance of the field 
> winding or...?
>
> At any rate, if you only use a 12V battery, I'm pretty sure the field 
> winding will draw less than 20 Amps.  If you have a 6V battery, you 
> could start there.
>
> The current draw of the field winding is pretty much linear with 
> voltage and is generally not effected much by the RPM of the motor.  
> So you could measure it at 6V and multiply by 16 to get a good idea of 
> what it would be at 96V, or measure it at 12V and multiply by 8.
>
> > Just wondering if I can measure field current with the 20A range on 
> > my DMM, or if I need a bigger ammeter.  It's just sitting on the 
> > table right now, and I don't have any of the final instrumentation 
> > yet, just playing around testing it.
> >
> > It's a 96 volt 20HP (cont) GE Sepex motor.  Big 300lb beast of a motor.
> >
> > Z
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic 
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do 
> whatever I wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree 
> that your long legalistic signature is void.
>
>

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

hmm seems there is something there to improve over a zilla
smoother application of power near stall


Chris Robison wrote:

On Sun, 2007-07-22 at 22:10 -0400, Deanne Mott wrote:

My basic question:  does reverse gear in an EV normally behave
different than an ICE reverse gear?  I am a total spaz backing up in
my Voltsrabbit Cabriolet.  It is rare that I am able to smoothly back
it up from a stop - I usually zoom it too fast.  I figured this is

I am the same way. In most of the EVs that I've driven in 1st gear and
reverse, especially ones powered by a Curtis but also with a Zilla, I
have a hard time applying power smoothly when trying to move slowly in a
very low gear. I sometimes hit it too hard and chirp the tires, and then
I overreact and end up bouncing the driveline on the clutch springs. I
believe that in most cars, the gear ratio for reverse is even lower than
1st gear, which seems to make the problem worse for me.

Most recently this was when test-driving Rob Hirschfeld's newly
converted Rav4 (http://ezehicle.com). I'd been driving it very well,
shifting smoothly and generally being nice to it, until I got back to
his driveway and stopped to back it in. Rob was very gracious in
containing his nervousness as I screeched and bumped the car back to his
garage doors.  :-)

I think it's mainly a matter of practice though. With time, I think
you'll get the hang of it.

--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org          <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Ooops - shift-S gives a capital S, ctrl-S sends the unfinished message...

>Field resistance of a  
Sepex motor should be large enough to measure it directly,
if you have a DMM and it has a reasonably accurate resistance
setting then you can fist hold the two probes against each other
to "calibrate" the meter (either a set screw or remembering
how much the meter displays when measuring "zero" in this way.

Then simply put the two probes on the field winding terminals
and calculate the difference between the two measurements.

An alternative and more accurate way for small resistance
values is to send a know current (for example exactly 1 Amp)
through the resistance and measure the voltage at the point
where you want to know the resistance - that is identical to
the resistance according to Ohms law U/I = R when I = 1.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 9:51 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex
motor?

Thanks for the info.  Exactly my plan (finding the resistance of the field
winding).  I'm trying to get an idea of how many amps the field controller
and field wiring has to handle, and the specs only give total motor amps,
not field current separately.  For now, I'm just trying it with a 12 volt
battery.  I spun the whole motor up at 12 volts, with jumper cables from my
ICE car, and it handled it fine, so I imagined that at that low voltage, the
field current should be low enough to measure without blowing up the DMM.  I
could actually use a big 6 volt L-16 to test it with too.

Z



On 7/23/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Are you just looking to get an idea of the resistance of the field 
> winding or...?
>
> At any rate, if you only use a 12V battery, I'm pretty sure the field 
> winding will draw less than 20 Amps.  If you have a 6V battery, you 
> could start there.
>
> The current draw of the field winding is pretty much linear with 
> voltage and is generally not effected much by the RPM of the motor.
> So you could measure it at 6V and multiply by 16 to get a good idea of 
> what it would be at 96V, or measure it at 12V and multiply by 8.
>
> > Just wondering if I can measure field current with the 20A range on 
> > my DMM, or if I need a bigger ammeter.  It's just sitting on the 
> > table right now, and I don't have any of the final instrumentation 
> > yet, just playing around testing it.
> >
> > It's a 96 volt 20HP (cont) GE Sepex motor.  Big 300lb beast of a motor.
> >
> > Z
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic 
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do 
> whatever I wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree 
> that your long legalistic signature is void.
>
>

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Difference may be in the way you apply force to the
throttle: do you rest your heel on the floor or do
you hover your entire foot in the air, balanced against
the counter-force from the accelerator spring?

When backing up, an increase in speed tend to move you forward,
thereby depressing the accelerator deeper until you lift your
foot and the car slows down, causing your foot to reduce the
accelerator even more. It is an instable control if the slop
in the control is too large.

If you firmly plant your heel on the floor and depress the
accelerator with the top of your foot, this oscillation
may be much less and you can control the accelerator much better. 

I never had problems with driving slow, neither forward or
reverse with either gas or electric drives.

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Robison
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 8:55 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Driving in reverse, spastic moves

On Sun, 2007-07-22 at 22:10 -0400, Deanne Mott wrote:
> My basic question:  does reverse gear in an EV normally behave 
> different than an ICE reverse gear?  I am a total spaz backing up in 
> my Voltsrabbit Cabriolet.  It is rare that I am able to smoothly back 
> it up from a stop - I usually zoom it too fast.  I figured this is


I am the same way. In most of the EVs that I've driven in 1st gear and
reverse, especially ones powered by a Curtis but also with a Zilla, I have a
hard time applying power smoothly when trying to move slowly in a very low
gear. I sometimes hit it too hard and chirp the tires, and then I overreact
and end up bouncing the driveline on the clutch springs. I believe that in
most cars, the gear ratio for reverse is even lower than 1st gear, which
seems to make the problem worse for me.

Most recently this was when test-driving Rob Hirschfeld's newly converted
Rav4 (http://ezehicle.com). I'd been driving it very well, shifting smoothly
and generally being nice to it, until I got back to his driveway and stopped
to back it in. Rob was very gracious in containing his nervousness as I
screeched and bumped the car back to his garage doors.  :-)

I think it's mainly a matter of practice though. With time, I think you'll
get the hang of it.

--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org          <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

> "Back when you could actually lease one, I'd heard the same thing.  You
> had
> to have a 6 figure income and had to take a personality test to make sure
> you had the "right" kind of personality to lease one."
>
> Maybe that's why out of the 5,000 people on the waiting list only "50
> people were willing to sign the paperwork."
>

I've missed something,  what is that a quote from? (50 people were...)

-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Bill & Nancy wrote:
> I just bought a dc/dc from Astrodyne www.astrodyne.com for a 72 volt
> system. They have one for a 72-144 volt system for around  $135, model
> #sd350d with adjustable voltage output at  around 28 amps. I am
> installing it tomorrow.

1) That's a 350W unit, so stick to a maximum of 25A with a 13.8V output.

2) This unit is made by MeanWell and is resold under MANY names. Some show "foldback current limiting" for output overload protection (drawing too many amps from the 12V side), but the actual spec sheet says "power down output, remove power to reset". If you draw too many amps, it will turn off and you have to disconnect the high voltage input to get it to work again. 3) The minimum rated input voltage for this unit is 72V. It may not perform well (overheat, brownout, etc) when your pack voltage sags below 72V. 4) Don't skimp on a DC/DC. It's definitely not safe when you're driving at night and your headlights start to fade away...

The EV Album shows a few of the MeanWell units being used. Some people are happy with them, others are not. If it works for you, $135 is a smokin' deal! To give you an idea of typical 12V power requirements:

Headlights - 130W
Blower Fan - 30-250W, depending on speed setting
Rear Defroster - 100W

My car with just the key on (Zilla, motor blower, water pump, contactor, and a few relays) - 100W

72V is too low of an input voltage for an IOTA, Zivan NG1-DCDC, and any 85-265VAC rated supplies. Here are some other options:

Vicor Megamod (www.vicr.com): 72V input, 13.8V output, 300W @ $303. Up to 600W @ $494. An external diode may be required if used with a 12V SLA battery.

Sevcon (www.sevcon.com): 72V input, 13.5V output @ 23A (300W). Available from Battery Powered Systems (www.beepscom.com) for $230.

Curtis PMC (www.curtisinst.com): 72/96V input, 13.5V @ 22A output. KTA (www.kta-ev.com) sells them for $395.

Battery Powered Systems (www.beepscom.com) also sells CC Power units 200W @ $350, 400W @ $450.

-Adrian

.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Yesterday I drove a Zilla equipped car in a parade.  For 40 minutes we
cruised at around 4 mph with many stops and starts.  It was all glass
smooth.  
>From what I've heard, that is a characteristic of Zilla controllers.  I plan
on using one in all of my conversions because of this as well as the built
in safety features.

Richard at Northwest Electric Vehicles


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 9:20 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Driving in reverse, spastic moves

hmm seems there is something there to improve over a zilla
smoother application of power near stall

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

On 22 Jul 2007 at 15:14, John Wayland wrote:

> > BTW, the number of html messages isn't even close to 20%.....
> 
> Really? I just got in 15 messages from the EVDL.....7 of them came in:
> 
> REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED---   
> 
> Do the math, David.

That would be a waste of time, since your sample is much too small to draw 
statistically valid conclusions.  Instead I'll do the math on a much more 
reasonable sample - posts for the entire month of June.

During June 2007, 3187 posts (!) crossed the EVDL (or at least that's how 
many are in my personal archive).  Of these, 127 contained html or an 
attachment.  That's just under 4%.  

As I said, nowhere near 20%, and certainly a long way from 50%.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode?  See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

I've been using the Electrabishi to push two donor vehicles for my next 
conversion around the driveway.  I can millimeter that
thing right up to the bumper and barely feel when contact is made.  The Zilla 
handles the stall current very well.  If it is jerky
then there may be something wrong with the driveline.  You do not need to 
feather the clutch like you would in an ICE vehicle.

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

On 7/23/07, Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

We are using the factory speed sensor system as originally
installed.  The first operational test shows the factory speedometer
reading as very low, below what should be the actual speed.   We ran
the motor with the car on jack stands and watched the rotation of the
tires against the speedometer indication.  The speedometer seems very
low, off by at least 50% if not more

Are both the tyres rotating at the same speed when you do this?
Usually one turns and the other doesn't, and the spinning wheel will
turn twice as fast as it would normally, for that road speed.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

On 7/22/07, Eric Udell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*         ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED---            *
*     This post contains a forbidden message format       *
*  (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting)  *
*       Lists at  sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT         *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting  *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

By going to "show original" we can see that Eric actually wrote:

John,
     I'm not an expert in email, but I have a little knowledge on the
subject. There's nothing you can do on your end for messages truncated by
the server.

So, this isn't correct, you can retrieve "truncated" mails because
there is almost always a plain text version appended, even if you
wrote it in HTML or included an attachment*.

Unfortunately the mail server, rather than simply throwing the binary
part away, replaces it with the text message above which is then
usually picked up by everyones mail reader in preference to the real
message text.
It's probably time we sorted this out because it seems that some
people are having real trouble understanding this and avoiding it.

* Although if you receive the digest you really are out of luck!

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Try putting a stronger spring on the throttle or throttle pot.  This will give 
you a better feel of how much throttle to apply.

Jerry
-----Original Message-----
>From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 23, 2007 12:39 AM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: RE: Driving in reverse, spastic moves
>
>Difference may be in the way you apply force to the
>throttle: do you rest your heel on the floor or do
>you hover your entire foot in the air, balanced against
>the counter-force from the accelerator spring?
>
>When backing up, an increase in speed tend to move you forward,
>thereby depressing the accelerator deeper until you lift your
>foot and the car slows down, causing your foot to reduce the
>accelerator even more. It is an instable control if the slop
>in the control is too large.
>
>If you firmly plant your heel on the floor and depress the
>accelerator with the top of your foot, this oscillation
>may be much less and you can control the accelerator much better. 
>
>I never had problems with driving slow, neither forward or
>reverse with either gas or electric drives.
>
>Cor van de Water
>Systems Architect
>Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
>Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Chris Robison
>Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 8:55 PM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Driving in reverse, spastic moves
>
>On Sun, 2007-07-22 at 22:10 -0400, Deanne Mott wrote:
>> My basic question:  does reverse gear in an EV normally behave 
>> different than an ICE reverse gear?  I am a total spaz backing up in 
>> my Voltsrabbit Cabriolet.  It is rare that I am able to smoothly back 
>> it up from a stop - I usually zoom it too fast.  I figured this is
>
>
>I am the same way. In most of the EVs that I've driven in 1st gear and
>reverse, especially ones powered by a Curtis but also with a Zilla, I have a
>hard time applying power smoothly when trying to move slowly in a very low
>gear. I sometimes hit it too hard and chirp the tires, and then I overreact
>and end up bouncing the driveline on the clutch springs. I believe that in
>most cars, the gear ratio for reverse is even lower than 1st gear, which
>seems to make the problem worse for me.
>
>Most recently this was when test-driving Rob Hirschfeld's newly converted
>Rav4 (http://ezehicle.com). I'd been driving it very well, shifting smoothly
>and generally being nice to it, until I got back to his driveway and stopped
>to back it in. Rob was very gracious in containing his nervousness as I
>screeched and bumped the car back to his garage doors.  :-)
>
>I think it's mainly a matter of practice though. With time, I think you'll
>get the hang of it.
>
>--
>Christopher Robison
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>http://ohmbre.org          <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
>

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message --- My Auburn Kodiak controller includes a reverse power setting. It wires up to the backup lights and reduces the power to one fourth of normal. I believe the Zilla has something similar.

I found an old email about this problem from May 2001.

"My EV is great in many ways, but I was getting tired of
 the lurching, lunging takeoffs provided by the Curtis
 controller. Backing up was especially exciting. The EV
 had only two backup speeds: a very slow crawl, and a
the high velocity lunge mode. After recently ramming
the car behind me while trying to parallel park, I
finally resolved to do something.

The EV list archives suggested several solutions, and I
 chose the easiest one: adding a capacitor in parallel
 with the potbox.  I installed a 500 microfarad cap
 (rated for 10 volts), and was pleasantly surprised by
the lunge-free performance the resulted. Backups are
 now smooth as silk."

I think I did this on my Curtis, but I can't recall. (I sold that EV in 1999 so I am a bit rusty on what it was setup like.)

Thanks,

Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html

In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Zeke,
Perhaps you could give us the part number on that GE
motor?  All of the GE sepex motors I  have dealt with
in the past including the Dodge TEVan and lower
voltage automotive sepex motors that had a nameplate
voltage of 96V used about 18 amps max on the field
winding.  You should be able to get a rough estimate
using a DMM.
Rod
--- Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Just wondering if I can measure field current with
> the 20A range on my
> DMM, or if I need a bigger ammeter.  It's just
> sitting on the table
> right now, and I don't have any of the final
> instrumentation yet, just
> playing around testing it.
> 
> It's a 96 volt 20HP (cont) GE Sepex motor.  Big
> 300lb beast of a motor.
> 
> Z
> 
> 

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

To most,  thanks for all your help!!





_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!  
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlmailtextlink

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message --- anyone have some data on a normal sedan conversion with for instance an ADC 8" motor.

where the amps are at during casual acceleration. (following traffic)

what gearing is used (if you start in second or first. if you gear it high and rely on high torque)

weight of the car too

thanks
Dan

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jerry Wagner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 4:55 AM
Subject: RE: Driving in reverse, spastic moves


>
> Try putting a stronger spring on the throttle or throttle pot.  This will 
> give you a better feel of how much throttle to apply.
>
> Jerry


That its, the old spring tension problem.  When I install my Curtis 5K pot 
and a Zilla, that little coil spring on the Curtis was too weak in pulling 
the accelerator cable all the way back.  A Zilla starts up at about 30-40 
ohms, and if you are too close to this ohm setting or starting out at this 
ohms setting, than you will instant motion the second you just touch the 
accelerator.

What I did, was to make sure that the Curtis pot setting started out at 
least between 0 and 2 ohms. And I took that little coil spring and took the 
spring hook off the peg and rotated it tighter and hook it on to a small 
steel cable clamp that I attach to one of the cover screws on the Curtis 
cover.

Now I have some movement of the accelerator cable from 0 ohms to about 30 
ohms, before it thinks it want to move which is very smooth.

Only engage the clutch when the motor is not running at start, put it in 
gear and remove your foot from the clutch pedal.  I leave my clutch foot 
ready in position if something happens, so I can disengage the motor if I 
have to.

If you declutch every time you shift or while you are moving, remember to 
let up on the accelerator a bit, because a DC series motor that is not under 
load will over speed a bit between the shifting.

In a lighter vehicle, this problem becomes more critical then in a heavy 
vehicle.  In my heavy EV, I can see by the motor amp meter that the motor is 
getting power at about 30 ohms, but it will not starting moving the EV until 
reaches about 40 ohms.

Roland



> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> >Behalf Of Chris Robison
> >Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 8:55 PM
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >Subject: Re: Driving in reverse, spastic moves
> >
> >On Sun, 2007-07-22 at 22:10 -0400, Deanne Mott wrote:
> >> My basic question:  does reverse gear in an EV normally behave
> >> different than an ICE reverse gear?  I am a total spaz backing up in
> >> my Voltsrabbit Cabriolet.  It is rare that I am able to smoothly back
> >> it up from a stop - I usually zoom it too fast.  I figured this is 

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

OK, that is funny.
    I cut and pasted the header I think needs to be eliminated and the
list proc converted it to that text block. But I cut it from a previous
digest. I wonder if there are more than one html header by the time it
gets to the list server and it only strips the html and removes 1
header, leaving the header that causes the truncated problem. Other html
email comes in with only one header and is properly striped including
it's one header and displays the box without triggering the client to
cut off the message display.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Reverse is usually just to low. Often between 1st and second. On little
4 bangers, even lower.

In my car, which originally had a V6 it is not too bad, but the first
time I used it, I scared the crap out of myself. My foot was retrained
and thanks to the smoothness of the Zilla controller, it is not a problem.

I am wondering; what controller you have? If it is a matter of the gear
ratio being too darn low and you have a zilla, you can hook the back-up
light switch to the Zilla's valet setting(or give yourself a dash
switch) and then program it for a ridiculous low battery current limit
of 25A. At those speeds 25A can be alot at the motor, depending on pack
voltage. It has been a while since I plugged the zilla in, maybe the
limit is on the motor loop current.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message --- Make sure it is not something silly like I did, assuming that everything ran off the front wheels. On my saab the speedo runs off the right rear wheel ABS sensor. I could have spun it up all day and it wouldn't have read anything. If the onboard computers are still intact it may be looking for signals from all 4 wheels before it registers correctly. Of course that assumes you have ABS, wheel sensors, etc. I am sure glad I didn't cut out any of my computers!

Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 3:36 AM
Subject: Re: Speed Indication Issue - Toyota Yaris Conversion

On 7/23/07, Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

We are using the factory speed sensor system as originally
installed.  The first operational test shows the factory speedometer
reading as very low, below what should be the actual speed.   We ran
the motor with the car on jack stands and watched the rotation of the
tires against the speedometer indication.  The speedometer seems very
low, off by at least 50% if not more

Are both the tyres rotating at the same speed when you do this?
Usually one turns and the other doesn't, and the spinning wheel will
turn twice as fast as it would normally, for that road speed.

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Hello Dan and All,

Dan Frederiksen wrote:

anyone have some data on a normal sedan conversion with for instance an ADC 8" motor.

where the amps are at during casual acceleration. (following traffic)

what gearing is used (if you start in second or first. if you gear it high and rely on high torque)

weight of the car too

Blue Meanie, a 1972 Datsun 1200 sedan. Pre-converted weight at a light 1587 lbs. Exactly 2340 lbs. conversion weight when running a 156V, 585 lb. battery pack. Single ADC 9 inch DC motor with a Zilla Z1K. Battery amps during casual acceleration ~ 150-400 amps. Start in 2nd usually, unless I've destroyed it from those non-casual 1000 amp full acceleration modes :-) I'll add one more stat...cruise current at 55 mph on level ground is about 55-60 amps. This is a fun car to test the 'delivered' ahr capacity of a pack, as it draws nearly exactly 1 amp per mph. When the batteries are in good shape and not 5-6 years old, 25 miles range is possible because a pack of Optimas can supply ~ 25 ahrs at my EV's average current draws.

The car is in a transition mode right now and is running a very used pack of Exide Orbitals just so I can still drive it around locally. A new pack will find its way into the car hopefully, in the Fall. Dream mode on - 200 lbs. of A123 cells would reduce the car's weight down to 1955 lbs. and give it a 50 mile range with killer acceleration, too.

See Ya....John Wayland

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

Actually. now that I think about it, I had a poor setup on my pot box
that caused it to stick and jump. The zilla responded acordingly.

I shut everything down, got everything aligned so it worked smoothly.
Then I got my meter on the pot and adjusted until there wasn't a big
dead spot before it began to read. I can creap in fwd or reverse

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message --- It's in the WKTEC movie. Toggel to about 21 minutes. It's there. (might vary for few minutes depending on how it's ripped :)

-Jukka


Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti:

"Back when you could actually lease one, I'd heard the same thing.  You
had
to have a 6 figure income and had to take a personality test to make sure
you had the "right" kind of personality to lease one."

Maybe that's why out of the 5,000 people on the waiting list only "50
people were willing to sign the paperwork."

I've missed something,  what is that a quote from? (50 people were...)

--- End Message ---

--- Begin Message ---

thanks, that was useful info.

since 1st is a lower gear and requires less amps to do same accel would you say that a 400amp controller would be fine in that car for normal driving?

feel about the same as a normal slow gasser

(I share your enthusiasm for the A123 promise :) let's hope they start selling them at bulk pricing instead of punishment pricing)

John Wayland wrote:

Blue Meanie, a 1972 Datsun 1200 sedan. Pre-converted weight at a light 1587 lbs. Exactly 2340 lbs. conversion weight when running a 156V, 585 lb. battery pack. Single ADC 9 inch DC motor with a Zilla Z1K. Battery amps during casual acceleration ~ 150-400 amps. Start in 2nd usually, unless I've destroyed it from those non-casual 1000 amp full acceleration modes :-) I'll add one more stat...cruise current at 55 mph on level ground is about 55-60 amps. This is a fun car to test the 'delivered' ahr capacity of a pack, as it draws nearly exactly 1 amp per mph. When the batteries are in good shape and not 5-6 years old, 25 miles range is possible because a pack of Optimas can supply ~ 25 ahrs at my EV's average current draws.

The car is in a transition mode right now and is running a very used pack of Exide Orbitals just so I can still drive it around locally. A new pack will find its way into the car hopefully, in the Fall. Dream mode on - 200 lbs. of A123 cells would reduce the car's weight down to 1955 lbs. and give it a 50 mile range with killer acceleration, too.

See Ya....John Wayland

--- End Message ---