EV Digest 7079

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  2) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
        by James Drysdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Battery for a Bicycle?
        by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  5) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
        by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
        by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
        by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: EV digest 7078
        by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
        by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
        by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Dare I say nimh is dead
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: AGNS and OJ make record runs in Memphis, TN
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 15) Re:Ni-MH cells and Chevron (Re: EV digest 7078)
        by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
        by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
        by James Drysdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Douglas wheels
Burris tires
DEKA AGM batteries


-----Original Message-----
From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 10:36 am
Subject: Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6



--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Shawn,
Sounds great to me.
What kind of batteries? What kind of wheels/tires?
keith

So one more time through the calculator:
Calcualted wheel HP = 20 x 4.8 = 96  wheel hp
Estimated ET = 10.85 secs @  125 MPH.


Now that would be pretty fast on a minibike.

Shawn




-----Original Message-----
From: Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 1:51 am
Subject: Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6


Shawn, much congratulations on your new record! I
would just like to
add one comment. In your enthusiasm you wrote: "The
12.08 was backed up
with two runs of 12.15 @ 103 MPH. Next stop 240
volts !!! We may just
skip the 11's and head straight for the 10's.
Probably not but it sure
sounds good." 
 Just so the newbees on the list know, in our daily
life a second may
seem like a very short time but on a drag strip it
is an eternity. The
difference between 11 second ETs and 10 second ETs
is the difference
between being twenty years old and being sixty. That
analogy may give
some of you a clue :-)\ 
 
Roderick 
 
  Roderick Wilde 
  Vintage Golf Cart Parts 
Specializing in Parts for Harley and many other
mature carts 
  www.vintagegolfcartparts.com 
  E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Phone: 360-385-4868 
  P.O. Box 221 
  Port Townsend, WA 98368 
 
----- Original Message ----- From:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> 
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 4:38 PM 
Subject: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6 
 
> The weather was touch and go at Quaker City
Raceway in Salem, OH
today but > the sun finally won out as Denis
Stanislaw and AGNS
captured NEDRA record > # 6 in the MT-D class. We
set up with 14 DEKA's
(168 volts) and set our > sites on the 12.49 record
set back in 2004.
We left the track with a best > run of 12.08 @
102.91 in the semi final
round of eliminations. We had > dialed a 12.07 and
beat one of the
regulars at the the track and for a > brief moment
we thought Denis had
made it all the way to the finals. > Unfortunately
he was disqualified
after the run for going past the stage > lights
during his burnout.
sounds good.The 12.08 was backed up with two > runs
of 12.15 @ 103 MPH.
Next stop 240 volts !!! We may just skip the 11's >
and head straight
for the 10's. Probably not but it sure 
> 
> Shawn Lawless 
>

________________________________________________________________________ 


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow Dmitri, thanks I'd never seen Ni-MH of such a large capacity.
Just checking out the prices now.

The reason I had pretty much decided to go the lead-acid route was that
for the price of a Ni-MH or Li-ion 40Ah battery, I could buy a lead-acid
battery with a greater capacity for less.

Ni-MH solution
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SB1708&CATID=18&keywords=&SPECIAL=&form=CAT&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=583
36v, 40Ah = $AU1800 or $US1540

Lead-acid solution
http://www.batteriesplus.com.au/pd/554/239/delkor-dc27/
36v, 80Ah = $AU525 or $US449

About the Ni-MH, the wholesaler wasn't really keen on discounting much,
he pretty much quoted me the "20 unit buy" price.
But still even if I got a better price, how bloody expensive is it
compared to lead!!
The lead is about a third the price AND double the capacity.
This is what I could not believe.

Anyway cheers for the data, still browsing.

See you all around,
James Drysdale.



Dmitri wrote:
> I believe it's "just a certain method of manufacturing NiMH cells." 
> Using 600 2Ah cells will give you lots of trouble. Better to use 10Ah
> or 13Ah http://www.rabbittool.com/frames/NiMH2.html These guys have
> the largest cylindrical NiMH cell I've seen -- 20Ah. NiMH still
> doesn't parallel too well though. I could suggest a 72v Crystalyte hub
> motor system and you won't have to parallel NiMH cells.
>
> How about Li-Ion? Thundersky has a 40Ah LFP battery!
> http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200725164258.pdf These are relatively
> cheap. 18650 li-ion cells could work too.
>
> Keep in mind a 40Ah NiMH/Li-Ion battery will actually deliver close to
> 40Ah at fast discharge rates and a 40Ah Lead-acid will deliver perhaps
> 30.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Drysdale"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:07 AM
> Subject: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
>
>
>> G'day all.
>>
>> First up, if you don't know me here, its because I don't yet have an EV
>> and don't really have much to add to the discussions that go on here.
>> Secondly,  I am not a troll, and am building my first EV, an electric
>> bicycle, and thankyou to those members that gave me assistance.
>>
>> Some background.....
>> The battery capacity for my bicycle that I was originally aiming for was
>> 40Ah. I thought Ni-MH would be a good solution as lead-acid would be
>> very heavy and as it was a relatively small battery, the cost of Ni-MH
>> cells would be okay.
>>
>> What I found was that Ni-MH was more expensive that what I expected.
>> Even when I contacted an electronics wholesaler, on the recommendation
>> of one of their resellers, using 600 2Ah cells to obtain 36v and 40Ah
>> would cost $AU1800 ($US1540) That is for cells only.
>>
>> There was another bicycle battery thread here which I responded too, I
>> think I gave different costings then, but this is what I have worked out
>> with my most recent data.
>>
>> I have been researching more.
>> Chevron own the rights to Ni-MH technology?
>> Or just a certain method of manufacturing NiMH cells?
>>
>> Apparently they sued Panasonic for $30 million over an EV-95 line of
>> Ni-MH cells....
>> http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
>>
>> So is it true that a large entity owns the patents for Ni-MH technology,
>> and as this entity has more to do with oil, "restricts" the availability
>> of Ni-MH cells?
>>
>> FROM WEBSITE
>> http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
>> "Chevron's unit that controls the patents, *cobasys, *refuses to sell
>> their version of the battery unless, they say, they get "a large OEM
>> order". Apparently, they also refuse to let anyone else sell it, either"
>>
>> Is this why lead-acid is still the only viable technology? Even for a
>> crappy bicycle?
>> Is there some Chinese or Taiwanese manufacturer that builds Ni-MH cells
>> free of restraint from Chevron?
>> I did find a couple of companies supplying cells, my bookmarks were
>> deleted with a we browser update, so I don't have their addresses :-(
>> But their prices, although a little lower, were not enough to justify an
>> international order, particularly once shipping was added.
>>
>> Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
>> company that has its stakes in oil????
>>
>> Cheers,
>> James Drysdale.
>>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29/07/2007, at 9:50 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:

Could you point me to the info for these cells. You have made these
claims for a few weeks now and I am very interested in finding the charts.

It's not up on their website (actually I don't think their website is particularly up to date!) They sent me a datasheet but it has "Confidential" written on it, so I'll just email them and verify they don't mind if I distribute it.

I also thought you said they had other sizes of cylindrical cells, I
can't find any of that info.

Their main production seems to be 18650s, they do have other cells (http://www.phet.com.tw/Products/Image/Product_Intro.gif) but apparently the larger ones aren't designed for high power applications, e.g no good above 1C.

In fact, all I find on their site is information in conflict to what you
say.

http://www.phet.com.tw/Products/Cell_Spec01.aspx

When I look on their web site I see 1C(1.1A) and 4C(4.4A) and 200 cycle
at .2C (220ma)

This'll probably be their standard cell (GE-1200), which are a bit cheaper. (Just for the record, they claim 2000 cycles not 200.)

The PE-1150s are the 10C+ ones. As I say, I'll be doing a bunch of testing over the next few weeks to verify their claims, including some cycling at 10C discharge. I'll write up the results and post a link when I'm done!

-Ian

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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*     This post contains a forbidden message format       *
*  (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting)  *
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Of course you could get a lead-acid battery for much less. If weight isn't that big of an issue, then go with lead. Of course another big down-side to lead-acid is you can kill them fast by draining them completely and/or letting them sit discharged.

My question is, why do you need such a huge battery for a bicycle? 36v 80Ah?


----- Original Message ----- From: "James Drysdale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron


Wow Dmitri, thanks I'd never seen Ni-MH of such a large capacity.
Just checking out the prices now.

The reason I had pretty much decided to go the lead-acid route was that
for the price of a Ni-MH or Li-ion 40Ah battery, I could buy a lead-acid
battery with a greater capacity for less.

Ni-MH solution
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SB1708&CATID=18&keywords=&SPECIAL=&form=CAT&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=583
36v, 40Ah = $AU1800 or $US1540

Lead-acid solution
http://www.batteriesplus.com.au/pd/554/239/delkor-dc27/
36v, 80Ah = $AU525 or $US449

About the Ni-MH, the wholesaler wasn't really keen on discounting much,
he pretty much quoted me the "20 unit buy" price.
But still even if I got a better price, how bloody expensive is it
compared to lead!!
The lead is about a third the price AND double the capacity.
This is what I could not believe.

Anyway cheers for the data, still browsing.

See you all around,
James Drysdale.




--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lead-acid solution
> http://www.batteriesplus.com.au/pd/554/239/delkor-dc27/
> 36v, 80Ah = $AU525 or $US449

Lead-Acid batteries are typically rated for the 20 hr capacity.  This
battery would be 4 amps for 20 hrs (80 AH).  The thing is, their capacity
drops pretty significantly when drained at the 1 to 2 hr rate.  This
battery is probably only good for 50 Amps for 1 hr (50 AH)
Of course it also probably weighs around 60 lbs or so, three of these
would weigh about 180 lbs.

How big is this "crappy bicycle" you are planning on building?

-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
40ah for a bicycle? even at only 36V, that seems like an awfully large
pack.

I would think that the closest to lead acid in chargeing and balancing
is actually the lifepo4 cells. The cost is, of course, the issue.

As a test. 4-36V dewalt packs from ebay may be a good way. Take them
apart to get at the main power as the built in controller is probably
too low of amps
That would only be only 9ah by 36V but the reduced weight helps range
and they don't have problem with the amps.
In this application it might be interesting to see if the built in
controllers could work in parallel to provide an all in one soulution.
You could even have two sets of packs and have one set on charge while
the other is in use.


40AH * 36Volts of lead-acid is not really 40ah maybe 30 at low amps.
2hour instead of 20hour rate?

30ah * 36V in LiFePo4 (26650's) would be 11*13 =143 cells, and is 22lbs
raw cell weight.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Shawn,

Congratulations on your new record.  Maybe this will entice Steve Kiser to
take Dragon Rose out of mothballs and get back on the track.

I am also interested in seeing pictures of AGNS.  It must be an awesome
ride.

- F.T.


> [Original Message]
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Date: 7/28/2007 4:41:35 PM
> Subject: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
>
> The weather was touch and go at Quaker City Raceway in Salem, OH today 
> but the sun finally won out as Denis Stanislaw and AGNS captured NEDRA 
> record # 6 in the MT-D class. We set up with 14 DEKA's (168 volts) and 
> set our sites on the 12.49 record set back in 2004. We left the track 
> with a best run of 12.08 @ 102.91 in the semi final round of 
> eliminations. We had dialed a 12.07 and beat one of the regulars at the 
> the track and for a brief moment we thought Denis had made it all the 
> way to the finals. Unfortunately he was disqualified after the run for 
> going past the stage lights during his burnout. The 12.08 was backed up 
> with two runs of 12.15 @ 103 MPH. Next stop 240 volts !!! We may just 
> skip the 11's and head straight for the 10's. Probably not but it sure 
> sounds good.
>
> Shawn Lawless
> ________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at AOL.com.
>


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Shawn I appreciate the answer but I guess I
didn't ask the right questions, I'll try again.
what size, type of construction Mags/Steel/Aluminum
what configuration I think you mentioned duel rear
wheels in one of your posts?
Tires  slicks or street
batteries size do you change it when you up the
voltage(how are you able to use the same vehicle for
so many v classes?)  If you were closer I would come
to see you race.  I went to florida to see OJ but you
didn't have AGNS then.  Are you going to the NEDRA
finals on the 17th?
keith
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Douglas wheels
> Burris tires
> DEKA AGM batteries
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 10:36 am
> Subject: Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
> 
> 
> 
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Shawn,
> Sounds great to me.
> What kind of batteries? What kind of wheels/tires?
> keith
> 
>  So one more time through the calculator:
> > Calcualted wheel HP = 20 x 4.8 = 96  wheel hp
> > Estimated ET = 10.85 secs @  125 MPH.
> >
> >
> > Now that would be pretty fast on a minibike.
> >
> > Shawn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 1:51 am
> > Subject: Re: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6
> >
> >
> > Shawn, much congratulations on your new record! I
> > would just like to
> > add one comment. In your enthusiasm you wrote:
> "The
> > 12.08 was backed up
> > with two runs of 12.15 @ 103 MPH. Next stop 240
> > volts !!! We may just
> > skip the 11's and head straight for the 10's.
> > Probably not but it sure
> > sounds good." 
> >  Just so the newbees on the list know, in our
> daily
> > life a second may
> > seem like a very short time but on a drag strip it
> > is an eternity. The
> > difference between 11 second ETs and 10 second ETs
> > is the difference
> > between being twenty years old and being sixty.
> That
> > analogy may give
> > some of you a clue :-)\ 
> >  
> > Roderick 
> >  
> >   Roderick Wilde 
> >   Vintage Golf Cart Parts 
> > Specializing in Parts for Harley and many other
> > mature carts 
> >   www.vintagegolfcartparts.com 
> >   E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >   Phone: 360-385-4868 
> >   P.O. Box 221 
> >   Port Townsend, WA 98368 
> >  
> > ----- Original Message ----- From:
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> 
> > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 4:38 PM 
> > Subject: AGNS takes NEDRA record # 6 
> >  
> > > The weather was touch and go at Quaker City
> > Raceway in Salem, OH
> > today but > the sun finally won out as Denis
> > Stanislaw and AGNS
> > captured NEDRA record > # 6 in the MT-D class. We
> > set up with 14 DEKA's
> > (168 volts) and set our > sites on the 12.49
> record
> > set back in 2004.
> > We left the track with a best > run of 12.08 @
> > 102.91 in the semi final
> > round of eliminations. We had > dialed a 12.07 and
> > beat one of the
> > regulars at the the track and for a > brief moment
> > we thought Denis had
> > made it all the way to the finals. > Unfortunately
> > he was disqualified
> > after the run for going past the stage > lights
> > during his burnout.
> > sounds good.The 12.08 was backed up with two >
> runs
> > of 12.15 @ 103 MPH.
> > Next stop 240 volts !!! We may just skip the 11's
> >
> > and head straight
> > for the 10's. Probably not but it sure 
> > > 
> > > Shawn Lawless 
> > >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________ 
> 
> >
> > > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out
> > more about what's
> > free > from AOL at AOL.com. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
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> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 /
> > Virus Database: >
> > 269.10.22/923 - Release Date: 7/27/2007 6:01 PM 
> > > 
> > >  
> >
> >
> >
>
________________________________________________________________________
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> > more about what's free
> > from AOL at AOL.com.
> > =0
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
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> to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
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> 
> 
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James, 

The Ni-MH issue is only with the large formate batteries. You might look harder 
on the Internet for less expensive Ni-MH batteries. It seems Toyota has gotten 
around the restriction by increasing the number of power cells that they are 
using currently in the Prius to power their next generation of plug in Priuses. 
The prices of the market cells have come down a lot. You might look into 
powering your bike with AA Ni-MH cells or D cells. You could probably pick them 
up in AU saving your self the shipping costs. 

Try Tenergy sold at All-Battery on the Internet. 

 https://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=355 

Tenergy has a tabbed D cell battery that costs 7.95 and is rated at 1.2 volt at 
10 Ah. To get the 36v 40Ah you want should only cost you around 950 dollars. 
They may give you a break on price if you tell them you are buying 120 
batteries. I believe you can get them even cheaper if they don't have tabs to 
weld them together into one pack. Also try looking up a company called CTX. 
They have a D cell that is rated at 13.5 Ah. It costs more but in may reduce 
the size of your pack. 

Keep us posted on your project I want to see the end results. 

Joseph Lado 


  1) Ni-MH cells and Chevron
    by James Drysdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


First up, if you don't know me here, its because I don't yet have an EV
and don't really have much to add to the discussions that go on here.
Secondly,  I am not a troll, and am building my first EV, an electric
bicycle, and thankyou to those members that gave me assistance.

Some background.....
The battery capacity for my bicycle that I was originally aiming for was
40Ah. I thought Ni-MH would be a good solution as lead-acid would be
very heavy and as it was a relatively small battery, the cost of Ni-MH
cells would be okay.

What I found was that Ni-MH was more expensive that what I expected.
Even when I contacted an electronics wholesaler, on the recommendation
of one of their resellers, using 600 2Ah cells to obtain 36v and 40Ah
would cost $AU1800 ($US1540) That is for cells only.

There was another bicycle battery thread here which I responded too, I
think I gave different costings then, but this is what I have worked out
with my most recent data.

I have been researching more.
Chevron own the rights to Ni-MH technology?
Or just a certain method of manufacturing NiMH cells?

Apparently they sued Panasonic for $30 million over an EV-95 line of
Ni-MH cells....
http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm

So is it true that a large entity owns the patents for Ni-MH technology,
and as this entity has more to do with oil, "restricts" the availability
of Ni-MH cells?

FROM WEBSITE
http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
"Chevron's unit that controls the patents, *cobasys, *refuses to sell
their version of the battery unless, they say, they get "a large OEM
order". Apparently, they also refuse to let anyone else sell it, either"

Is this why lead-acid is still the only viable technology? Even for a
crappy bicycle?
Is there some Chinese or Taiwanese manufacturer that builds Ni-MH cells
free of restraint from Chevron?
I did find a couple of companies supplying cells, my bookmarks were
deleted with a we browser update, so I don't have their addresses :-(
But their prices, although a little lower, were not enough to justify an
international order, particularly once shipping was added.

Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
company that has its stakes in oil????





--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Just thought I'd chime with in another point to consider - cycle life. The thing that sold me on LiFePO4s for use in EVs was their super long cycle life, usually around 2000 cycles! Which is around 4x lead acid or nickel batteries. So if you consider the long term ownership cost, it levels the playing field quite a bit.

Add the fact that they weigh a quarter as much as PbA and can deliver much more power, it seems like a no brainer to me.. You just have to get past the initial expense.

-Ian

On 29/07/2007, at 11:12 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:

40ah for a bicycle? even at only 36V, that seems like an awfully large
pack.

I would think that the closest to lead acid in chargeing and balancing
is actually the lifepo4 cells. The cost is, of course, the issue.

As a test. 4-36V dewalt packs from ebay may be a good way. Take them
apart to get at the main power as the built in controller is probably
too low of amps
That would only be only 9ah by 36V but the reduced weight helps range
and they don't have problem with the amps.
In this application it might be interesting to see if the built in
controllers could work in parallel to provide an all in one soulution.
You could even have two sets of packs and have one set on charge while
the other is in use.


40AH * 36Volts of lead-acid is not really 40ah maybe 30 at low amps.
2hour instead of 20hour rate?

30ah * 36V in LiFePo4 (26650's) would be 11*13 =143 cells, and is 22lbs
raw cell weight.



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Yep, I saw those comments also, Jim, and I thought that it was pretty balanced. His comparisions, however, were not apples to apples, as John mentioned.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: With barely a sound, electric dragsters aim for gas-powered records


Hey John, Rod

First off, I've only been at this just two short years
and know you two have at least 10 times that on me.
Having "not" been there all those years, I can only
imagine (and read about) what it took to make what is
happening "now" come to fruit.  I'd also imagine that
anything hinting at negativity is disappointing and
frustrating 8^(

Honestly though I didn't read this article as being as
bad as you two felt it was.  It didn't "phase" me at
all that they wrote that ICE's are still much faster
than electrics!  I mean come on, most people haven't
EVen got a clue Electric cars exist let alone race!
Being able to knock the snot out of a V06 Corvette
isn't a small feat and EVen your average smuck knows
that 8^)

I guess I try to focus on the positive vs the negitive
in EVery aspect of my life and stuff like this falls
very much into that ideal.  In as much as John was
able to pick out parts he felt were detrimental to the
cause I'd like to snip some that I felt were more
positive 8^)

Pollacheck crosses the quarter-mile marker doing 156
m.p.h. (251 km/h); he's
travelled 402 metres in 8.22 seconds, faster than any
of the gas-powered
cars, trucks or motorcycles that have raced in the
drag sprints on this
weekend at Portland International Raceway.

Electric vehicles are making their presence felt at
amateur drag races
across the United States, challenging gas-powered cars
and motorcycles. The
"amp heads," computer geeks and tree-hugging
environmentalists driving the
electron-powered vehicles are starting to kick some
major rear end.

(Starting to kick some major rear end is IMO a pretty
positive statement!)

Pollacheck and his bike - dubbed the KillaCycle - are
part of a growing
movement that's exploiting breakthroughs in battery
technology and could
soon challenge the world's fastest-accelerating
vehicles in the $1-billion
drag-racing industry.

(here it is... "us" no budget hacks vs a billion
dollar industry!  Would anyone but a moron expect us
to be on top right now?!)

But electric vehicle racers say people like Light are
out of the loop. They
say rapid advances in battery technology will give EVs
a shot at drag-racing
records.

(Here the author states a gas racers opinion, but also
counters it with how an EV guys sees the future!)
(I'm sorry but I see that as him doing his homework
and offering up both sides of the coin so to speak, he
is simply writing what both sides have to say)

"This is a disruptive technology and there is a lot of
room for improvement
in this area," said Ric Fulop, founder and vice
president of business
development for A123, the maker of KillaCycle's
batteries.  In December, the KillaCycle will receive a
second-generation battery pack
that will have twice as much juice as its current
374-volt system, giving it
close to 1,000 horsepower. Fulop said he believes the
KillaCycle can break
the drag racing motorcycle record within the next
year.

(again he puts in that we're just getting started!)

Anyway, bottom line is we aren't as fast as the ICE's
yet.  That (to me) isn't very negitive at all, it's
common knowlege.  I just had to chime in as it seems
you didn't pay any attention to things that I felt
were positive and wanted to choose a few things you
didn't paste 8^P

I guess it's all in how you see things 8^)

Just my two positive pennies worth 8^o
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric




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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Only time will tell but I think the lithium iron phosphate cells will
displace nimh, so I am not to worried about the patents.

First of all the construction of the cells is very similar. The
materials and chemicals differ, but very similar.

Second, the LiFePo4 cell chemistry was designed to be cheaper. It should
be, but we have to wait for economies of scale to catch up.

Nickel is expensive, Cobalt is very expensive. Metallic Lithium is
expensive, but the LiFePo4 is a starved Li-ion cell, not really that
much lithium in it. 
I think when the cell is built there is no lithium in either the anode
or the cathode. The lithium-hexafluoride electrolyte has the lithium
ions and the commissioning charge causes the ions to migrate to the anode.

The iron,phosphate and graphite are relatively inexpensive.
Unlike the manufacturing of lithium cobalt, the binders are now aqueous
based and don't need an inert gas environment. The electrolyte is now
less reactive (and less carcynogenic)

The cost of materials and manufacturing is a fraction of lithium cobalt.
Again it is an economy of scale thing. with 4 LiFePo4 factories coming
on line this summer, we have about a year(ok,  like any opinion, this
and $3.50 will get you a decent cup of coffee)

IC's needed for balancing were all geared towards lithium-cobalt so
balancing circuits have been more  discrete and more expensive and rare,
that is changing too.

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--- Begin Message ---
Unfortunately, I have tried that Tenergy D cell, and it is crap.

http://www.batterypower.com.au/nimh.htm Here, btw, is a site I have found some time ago that might be of use for you.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: EV digest 7078


James,

The Ni-MH issue is only with the large formate batteries. You might look harder on the Internet for less expensive Ni-MH batteries. It seems Toyota has gotten around the restriction by increasing the number of power cells that they are using currently in the Prius to power their next generation of plug in Priuses. The prices of the market cells have come down a lot. You might look into powering your bike with AA Ni-MH cells or D cells. You could probably pick them up in AU saving your self the shipping costs.

Try Tenergy sold at All-Battery on the Internet.

https://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=355

Tenergy has a tabbed D cell battery that costs 7.95 and is rated at 1.2 volt at 10 Ah. To get the 36v 40Ah you want should only cost you around 950 dollars. They may give you a break on price if you tell them you are buying 120 batteries. I believe you can get them even cheaper if they don't have tabs to weld them together into one pack. Also try looking up a company called CTX. They have a D cell that is rated at 13.5 Ah. It costs more but in may reduce the size of your pack.

Keep us posted on your project I want to see the end results.

Joseph Lado



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--- Begin Message ---
I sold my Electravan 750 with the orginal bias tires.  They still had good
tread & the sidewalls looked ok.  I sent the new owner off to Utah with it
in tow.  Of course after 26 years it only had a few thousand miles on the
tires.  I wasn't worried one bit. If you are within load ratings tires can
last a long time.  Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Jackson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires


> Yeah, that article was over the top to be sure. Decades old though? Yikes!
Again, one of the 20 year old tires on my Corvair Rampside exploded while
sitting in the RV space last week. Those tires were quite new when they were
last used. They were not mounted to the vehicle while stored. In fact, they
were garaged. A six year old tire is going to be hard and comparatively
unsafe. A 20 year old tire is just crazy.
>
> Brian
>
>
> ---- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> =============
> I can think of endless numbers of cases where people with old or classic
cars are running tires that are
> decades old. So my guess is that the percent degradation is low. It
> would only matter in cases where the tire was already being run at its
> full load capacity even when new.
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I just love that the head of the NHRA isn't "concerned" about EV's coming to take his precious records away. In a year or two he's in for a rude awakening when he reads the morning paper and the headline is that a street legal electric car is the fastest thing on wheels.

I've never had a reason to post directly to the EV racers but I'll say now- Please keep doing what you're doing. I think one thing that may help push EV's into the mainstream is the public humiliation of ICE powered vehicles in races. It'll make people really think.

Not only do I see EV's growing in daily use, I envision EV "sleeper" street races where ordinary looking cars race from red light to red light. Not safe or legal and I don't condone it but just imagine it...people building "hotrods" that don't look like hotrods because there's no need for turbos, superchargers, velocity stacks or fat exhaust...these cars will make no noise and the police won't have any cause to pull them over until it's too late.

Can you imagine this?

_________________________________________________________________
http://newlivehotmail.com

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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Some background.....
>> The battery capacity for my bicycle that I was originally aiming for was
>> 40Ah. I thought Ni-MH would be a good solution as lead-acid would be
>> very heavy and as it was a relatively small battery, the cost of Ni-MH
>> cells would be okay.
>>     
>
> That is a HUGE pack for a bicycle.  What are you planning for 100+ mile
> range?
>
>   
Come December, yes.
About 1600km (1000 miles), then back again.
And in the meantime my daily load will be about 145kg (320 pounds).
I do a call-out on-site tech service, all over town, and would like to
use my recumbent trike as a primary vehicle.
Need a trailer to haul my gear, and its not that light.
>> I have been researching more.
>> Chevron own the rights to Ni-MH technology?
>>     
>
> As I understand it, the basic technology.
>
>   
>> Apparently they sued Panasonic for $30 million over an EV-95 line of
>> Ni-MH cells....
>> http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
>>
>> So is it true that a large entity owns the patents for Ni-MH technology,
>> and as this entity has more to do with oil, "restricts" the availability
>> of Ni-MH cells?
>>     
>
> Yes, their licensing agreement specifically prohibits batteries large
> enough for EVs, this is why they sued Panasonic, and won.
>
>   
>> Is this why lead-acid is still the only viable technology? Even for a
>> crappy bicycle?
>>     
>
> Well, there is always LiIon/LiPol batteries.
>   
Using DeWalt 9360 36v 2.2Ah packs as a reference,
it will cost me $AU6480 ($US5546) for a 36v 40Ah pack.
There was a seller on eBay selling these packs for much cheaper, but atm
I can only find one (expensive) seller.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Akku-36-0-V-2-2-Ah-Li-Ion-DeWALT-DE-9360-DE9360_W0QQitemZ280067279316QQihZ018QQcategoryZ124423QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
Also I am actually trying to save for a much bigger EV, and this won't
help.....

>   
>> Is there some Chinese or Taiwanese manufacturer that builds Ni-MH cells
>> free of restraint from Chevron?
>>     
>
> Legally?  No.  But then the chinese tend to ignore trivial little things
> like international patent/copywrite laws.
>
>   
Hmmm, I'd hate to think what I or anyone else would have to go through
for an international order from such a company, and assuming that they
build the same type of Ni-MH, what their quality control would be.
Sorry, I am inexperienced in this area.
>   
>> Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
>> company that has its stakes in oil????
>>     
>
> Only for a few more years, until the patent runs out.
>
>
>   
Well that is some good news.

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Hello to All,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

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Yet another truncated post! Fortunately, thanks to a link someone gave the other day, I was able to go dig his post up and actually read it. Here's part of it:

some of the "electric people" get carried away with themselves and don't really know what's going on in the "real" world of drag racing.


Yes, and 'some' of us electric people aren't carried away with themselves and 'do' know what's going on in the "real" world of drag racing. I am well aware of where fuel type drag machines are, and that's exactly why I responded the way I did.
More from Jim:

(The old electric dragster guy. 9.44 seconds <at> 135 mph) and that was seven years ago next month.


If you examine the machine Jim Ludicker had, you can see why Jim is saying what he is, because in Jim's context, Aaron Clark's comments would have made sense. If you take my street car out
of the equation and replace it (and it's 11 second ET) with Jim's electric rail 
(rails and funny cars are pretty
much the same machines, as a funny car is merely a caricature of a car, a 60 
lb. thin shell that pops
on and off a rail dragster...think an RC car who's egg shell thin body comes off the chassis with two or four quick release pins), you are then comparing apples to apples. Aaron's comment would then read this way:


electric vehicles have even more catching up to do. The electric rail dragster Circuit Breaker's best time in a quarter-mile is 9.44 seconds - still 4.4 seconds away from the Top Fuel record.


If the above had been the statement, I would have had no problem with it, 
because it's
a fair comparison...rail to rail.

Actually knowing what it takes to make a street car run low 11s on street legal tires, and actually knowing what a caricature of a car a funny car is (a flimsy wavy thin plastic shell that hinges over what is essentially a full blown rail dragster chassis fitted with thousands of hp) is why the author's absolutely stupid remarks got my blood boiling! Comparing a street sedan to a funny car, is like comparing a two man strap-it-to-the-roof of your SUV paddle type fishing boat to an aircraft carrier! The comparison is absurd and to those unfamiliar with top fuel machines, very misleading. All many readers will come away with, is that a record holding electric car is way slower than a gas powered car...and that will be it. The real fact right now, is that when we show up with our electric car at the local drag strip, we out-power most of the gas cars we race against...cars that 'are' comparable. Many of the cars we race and beat, come in on a trailer, too! If I had built an electric funny car then campaigned directly with top fuel funny cars, Mr. Clark's comments would be right
on. As it stands, his comments are reckless and as I said, misleading.


It's nice to see there are guys out there still pushing the E.T. barrier but it the last few tenths of a second that is the most difficult, look at Killa Cycle's last time out, after a lot of hard work they didn't go as quick as they did in Phoenix.

No one understands about those last tenths of seconds better than me. We fought 
more than two
years to knock off two tenths to get into the 11s.

Drag Racing records are not easy, it's a lot of dedication and hard work to get there.

On this, we agree!

See Ya....John Wayland


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