EV Digest 7086
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: NEDRA board help on 3 wheeled vehicles
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) RE: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?
by Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?
by Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV digest 7085
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) What happened to my post to John Wayland????????????????
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: NEDRA board help on 3 wheeled vehicles
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) RE: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
by Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: 96 S10 a good candidate?
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: FW: solid state relays
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: [EV] RE: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Could higher pack voltage be stepped down for Curtis input?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Type to use?
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: [EV] RE: 96 S10 a good candidate?
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Bench testing the GE EV-1 Controller
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Type to use?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Type to use?
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: NEDRA board help on 3 wheeled vehicles
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: AGM battery emissions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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GM has a burden that VW and other auto manufacturers do not... the UAW. The UAW
is so incredibly expensive that GM can not afford to sell high-tech cars that
are expensive to develop, expensive to manufacture, and only marginal on sales.
That is why they went so gung ho with SUVs. SUVs are cheap to design, cheap to
make, and they sell like mad! This was GM's reasoning when they canned the EV1.
I know, there are other reasons for the EV1's demise. GM didn't see how the EV1
would help the company assuming it would never sell terribly well. Toyota went
the other way with the Prius even after the Rav4 went belly up. The Prius is
not a high volume vehicle like the Camry or 4-Runner, but it is a fantastic PR
machine. It does not make the company much money directly. Indeed, many argue
that it is sold at a loss. However, Toyota is reaping the rewards of the green
image that the Prius has afforded them and getting ready to replace GM as the
world's largest auto manufacturer because !
of it.
If GM continues to lose market share, the company may have trouble maintaining
its huge retiree benefits and pension programs. These programs are already in
trouble. Shoot, Delphi, a subsidiary of GM, declared bankruptcy about a year
ago. General Motors does not need to save the world with its Volt. General
Motors NEEDS to save itself.
I would even argue that the US needs GM to get this one right. Ever hear the
saying, "What's good for GM is good for the US?" It's true. If GM goes down,
the US economy will probably take a big hit. Remember the labor strike of...
uh... I think it was 1994? That strike stopped production at GM for a month and
a half. That event knocked a full percentage point off the United States'
growth rate for that quarter. Imagine what could happen if something really big
happened to GM. In 94, GM was the world's 3rd largest corporation. I'm not sure
where it stands today, but it's still pretty big. Big enough that it employs,
either directly or indirectly, nearly one million people.
Neither GM nor the US can afford to have GM screw this one up.
---- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
=============
They have been posting video clips online with Q&As and progress reports.
Some of these feature Bob Lutz. Lutz comes across as a defensive and
arrogant prick. In one of the most recent clips he responds to a question
by saying "I don't owe you anything!". That's GM's "take it or shove it"
attitude towards the consumer. Lutz obviously feels GM only answers to
shareholders and has no responsibility to society as a whole. This was in
the context of clean diesel where Lutz talks about how it's too expensive,
yada yada yada and how HCCI will be good enough. Meanwhile, VW and a couple
others are about to roll out 50-state capable clean diesels. So they must
know something GM doesn't.
If the Volt does come out, it is again, like the EV1, going to be fighting
against a corporate environment which is only begrudgingly committed to it.
-----Original Message-----
nothing much about the volt in the article
someone should track down the prototype and see if they are actually
working on it. some industrial espionage if you will
I'm guessing they are still not committed to it. We have to keep the
pressure on them
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2014
On 7/29/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
> >> company that has its stakes in oil????
>
> >Only for a few more years, until the patent runs out.
>
> Anyone know when that is?
>
> Bill
>
>
--- End Message ---
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Hahaha that's great! He really comes across pretty rough there. Man, was that
live or something? Why didn't they edit that "I don't owe you anything" line
out?
He is certainly right about GM's growth in the developing world. GM is China's
largest auto manufacturer. According to my Father in Law, who visits China
every year and who holds a PHD in Chinese history, GM cars, and particularly
Buicks, are viewed as being high class and even aristocratic in Chinese
society. Way to go GM! At least they're making money somewhere. haha
Brian
---- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
=============
Bob "I don't owe you anything!" Lutz:
http://nexttothetoilet.wordpress.com/tag/bob-lutz/
Bob Lutz on making excuses about not doing clean diesel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXA22Q0qXNM
He talks about how urea is required for clean diesels. Some of the smaller
50-state cars coming over use an innovative system that DOES NOT require
urea.
He also doesn't even mention the benefits of diesel as far as being able to
run biodiesel and SVO/WVO. That's completely off his radar.
Volt progress report:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNbNwst3_C4
The Volt is a larger, heavier car than the EV1, and not quite as
streamlined. If price is no object, like Tesla's approach, fine, but I
think it is going to be a challenge to bring it to market under $30K with
the amount of lithium batteries it will take to give it a 40 mile range. I
would not be surprised to see specs change last minute on it that will
completely deflate the current hype. Like they could do some kind of
financing shenanigans on the battery pack like I've been hearing about.
Making cars affordable takes a lot of work across the board.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:37 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> They have been posting video clips online with Q&As and progress
> reports.
>
got links?
do you know where they are supposed to be working on it?
Dan
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Congratulations Mark!
This could be a resurgence of the Th!nk. Great job being one of the
first in the States.
Alot of folks worked hard to keep the car from the crusher and this
is a result of the hard work - getting them back here in the states
again.
Chip
On Jul 30, 2007, at 3:03 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: July 30, 2007 1:43:40 PM EDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: CNN Money: Have you driven a Fjord lately?
I think the think is not bad looking and makes a great city car, so
much so I bought one of the first and it will be here in the states
in a couple weeks. It is the original body style and has a new saft
pack (was on display with no pack).
Mark
On Jul 30, 2007, at 9:36 AM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
I don't care for the think because it suffers from stereotype
problems. it's unattractive and feeds the impression that EVs are
fugly.
what I do like about it is the Kamen stirling motor, at least in
theory. probably cost too much, never arrive and be too weak in
reality but a small clean range extender we sure could use. if it
works he might even sell to the big boys too if they ever make
phevs. we could get lucky and he could be the wild card big oil
didn't count on :)
Dan
Richard Acuti wrote:
This is a great article about the impending resurrection of the
Think:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/
2007/08/01/100138830/index.htm?cnn=yes
Rich
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Sorry Jim,
I can't read your posts either.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: NEDRA board help on 3 wheeled vehicles
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So, Rich, you're going to take some mysterious open-source design,
package it and sell it? What's going on here? Wanna share, or is this
open-source BMS your intellectual property? It's OK if it is, it just
kind of doesn't make sense to call it open-source if it's proprietary.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, July 26, 2007 4:31 pm
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: Let My People Convert! - The A123 Challenge
> Guys, Guys.. A123 sells Cobal Phosphate cells to DeWalt. They have not
> yet brought out the Iron Phosphate cells. At least so I have heard from
> the little birds :) . . . .
>
> Are the cells on the KillaCycle (Bill?) also Cobalt Phosphate cells ?
> (You can't see it from the cell voltage. Need to analyze the insides or
> ask from the factory) I think we had a talk about this earlier. I was
> wondering the specific energy amount then...
>
> Are you REALLY suggesting that A123 should do the same screw ups as some
> Chinese companies have ? Selling plain cells to "grass root activists"
> is insane.
>
> It is possible to get even the most safest cells on the earth on fire.
> You just need to giive them to stupid enough person and that's it.
>
> I hope A123 can produce vehicle packs to all hobbyists since there is a
> real demand.
>
> Reason A123 still has good fame is that they are not giving the cells
> out to wrong persons.
>
> But I hope there will be soon some open source BMS out there that you
> can do easily with discrete components..... And buy any cells from
> anywhere.....
>
> -Jukka
That open source generic BMS is exactly what the Lion Tamer and the
Mk3by4
products are going to be.
In fact I have them on both A123 cells and Thunder Sky LFP40aha cells at
this very moment.
So yea their will be support, and lots of it.
Jukka, I thought the A123 were all Lith Fe Phosphate Graphite , no
cobalt at
all.. and never was.
The Thunder Skys LFP are also the .. safe cell designs.
I have heard the spec E on A123 266550s are 3680 Watts/ Kg, and in the
Killacycle they are actually getting just a tad over 4Kw/Kg.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
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Hello Eduardo,
An S10, and most small trucks, make great EV platforms. They have lots
of room under the bed for batteries, and in the front engine
compartment. They are built to carry a lot of weight, which you will
use for batteries. Their small size and some what low weight help out
with wind resistance a little and not having to move around a heavy
vehicle.
Is this S10 a manual transmission? Manual or power brakes? Manual or
power steering? It will be easier to get running with the manual
options, but many on the list have found solutions for power brakes
(electric vacuum pump) and power steering (electric pump or existing
pump with a belt to new drive motor). The manual transmission would be
the easiest to attach to and use, or a much larger motor driving the
rear end directly, with a much larger controller. The manual
transmission will allow a more reasonable priced DC motor and controller
to be used.
Look at the EV Album and see what others have done with a small truck.
Here is a '95 S10 on ebay that was professionally built, AC drive I
believe.
Check out Solectria E10: item 140142830024
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1401428300
24&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fmotors.search.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle
%3D140142830024%26fvi%3D1
Good luck!
Alan Brinkman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eduardo Kaftanski
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 7:53 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: 96 S10 a good candidate?
A friend is trading in a 96 S10 with 100k miles in very decent
condition. FOr what they are giving him for trade in value I can buy it
from him and drive it until I have money to convert it.
I have read they make very good conversion candidates, is it true?
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | Freedom's just another word
http://ev.nn.cl | for nothing left to lose.
|
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--- Begin Message ---
Roger Daisley wrote:
I have a related question that I have been meaning to write about:
I have a box of new Crydom (CSD2450) SSR's that I bought on eBay. The input
is 3.5-15VDC and the switched output is 240 VAC @ 50A.
I had planned on using them in my conversion for switching low power DC
circuits, such as horns, lights, radio's, etc. The problem, I have
discovered, is that AC switching loads will not work on DC. (I'm sure most
people on this board already that ... And are chuckling at my ignorance!)
Through experimentation, using a 12-v headlight, I find that the relay will
switch the light ON, but when the input is removed ... The light stays ON.
So much for that idea!
The purpose of this message is to see if there is some "trick" that I can
use to shut the SSR down, when switching 12-VDC loads ... Or should I start
looking for different SSR's?
The easy answer is to start looking for a true DC solid state relay instead.
But if you are desperate (or cheap) :-) you can use *two* of these AC
solid state relays to switch a DC load. The circuit looks like this
(view with a fixed width font):
+DC___________________
_|_ |
any | | >
DC | | R1 >
load |___| >
|____||____|
"on" | || | "off"
SSR / C1 / SSR
-DC________|__________|
C1 is an AC-rated motor "run" capacitor (not an electrolytic). Its
capacitance should be about C = Iload x 50 / Vdc (where C is in
microfarads). For example, if Vdc=120v and the load current is 12 amps,
then C = 12 x 50 / 120v = 5 uF.
R1 should be chosen to draw about 1 ma at the DC voltage being switched.
For example, 12k at 12vdc, or 120k at 120vdc.
Operation: Both the "on" and "off" SSRs should be pulsed with a
momentary switching function, such as a pushbutton. Pulse the "on" SSR's
input to turn the load on. The SSR will turn on, and *stay* on because
SCRs and triacs won't turn off until the current through them stops flowing.
While the "on" SSR is on, capacitor C1 will be charged up to the full DC
voltage by R1; + on the right side, - on the left. To turn off the load,
pulse the input of the "off" SSR momentarily on. The "off" SSR turns
on, shorting the right side of C1 to -DC, which pulls the left side of
C1 negative. This causes the "on" SSR to turn off.
C1 and the "off" SSR will carry the load current, until C1 discharges
and then re-charges in the opposite direction from the load current.
When the current in C1 falls below that required to keep the "off" SSR
on, the SSR turns off. Now both SSRs are off, and the load is off. C1
will slowly recharger via R1, to be ready for the next cycle.
This works best with plain old SCRs instead of SSRs. Fancy SSRs with
zero crossing detectors, undervoltage cutouts, etc. won't work on DC at all.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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> GM was the world's 3rd largest corporation. I'm not sure where it stands
> today, but it's still pretty big. Big enough that it employs, either directly
> or indirectly, nearly one million people.
>
maybe they should start chopping it up?
--
Eduardo K. | Roses are #FF0000
http://www.carfun.cl | Violets are #0000FF
http://ev.nn.cl | All my base Are belong to you
|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
The Curtis 1231 is rated for a *nominal* 144v pack maximum...
Mark Freidberg wrote:
Would it be possible to connect the hypothetical 204v
pack to a device like a step-down transformer, and
then connect the output side of that to the rest of
the drive circuit? The transformer would reduce 204v
pack voltage to 144v or less for Curtis Controller.
The Curtis controller *is* such a step-down device. Unfortunately, its
maximum input pack voltage is 144v. To go higher, you need to buy a more
expensive controller; and that's what you are trying to avoid.
I'd look for ways to stay with twelve 12v batteries, but increase
the amphours of each one to whatever weight you feel you can carry.
I'm all for staying with 12 large 12v batts as long as
my stinky batt woes can be resolved.
We haven't figured out what is causing it yet, but I'm quite sure it's
not the batteries themselves. Something you or your charger are doing is
causing them to vent and smell.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok .. But I was also told that when you increase the volts .. Amps will
increase also.. In a series motor.
Making the volts go to 72 would then make the amps go to over 600.. What is
it that I am not understanding?
So are you telling me that . I can control the amps?
Mitchell
-------Original Message-------
From: Tim Humphrey
Date: 07/30/07 14:22:25
To: EV
Subject: Re: Type to use?
Heat (to burn up your motor) comes from amps.
Power (to move your car) comes from watts.
Watts is the product of Amps times Volts.
Lets say that your car needs 10800 watts (10.8KW) to cruise at 55MPH.
You have a choice of;
36V times 300 Amps, which is right at the limit of youre motor's rating for
amps.
Or
72V times 150 Amps, which is half of the motor's rating and will allow it to
run much cooler.
I agree.... Go with the Alltrax 7245 or 7265 and shoot for a 72V system.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Phelps
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:57 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Type to use?
>
> Well this is all new to me.. So I don't know if I will keep the voltage
> the
> Same .. I don't need a lot of power.. But on the other hand I don't want
> to
> Wait 3 min to get to 55..
> I guess as far as increasing the voltage I am a bit uneasy with it..
> Because
>
> Of the stamp on the motor reads 30 volts.. Now I know I was told that ..
> The
>
> Stamp voltage is only one voltage that will work.. But if I raise the
> Voltage and double it would not the motor burn up if I cruised the high
> way
> For 40 mins?
> Or is that what you meant by forced air blower? A blower to cool the
> motor..
>
> Also Barkley stated.that he powered the
> Field of my aircraft generator with a separate 24volts... What's this
> about
> ? Is that just for his take off power?
> Or is that something that should be done. Will I loose out if I don't..
> Or
> Just be slower on take off?
>
> Mitchell
>
> Subject: Re: What type controller..
>
> Any controller you desire. Are you planning to keep it
> To 36 volt or go higher eventually?
> I have the JH-29 starter/generator and it is rate 48
> Volt 450 amps. Evolks drove them up to 96 volts but
> Maintained the 450 amps by using a Curtis. They also
> Ran it with 72 volt using an Alltrax AXE 7245. The AXE
> Series controller are programmable and usually
> Available from local Golf cart shops Hover they used
> Forced air blowers to run up the voltage. Hope this
> Helps
> --- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Ok.. It is time for me to look at buying a
>> controller..
>>
>> Like I have stated before I have a Motor that takes
>> 30 volts at 300 amps,,
>>
>> However I am planing on using 36 volts and I guess
>> at times that would bring
>> the current up to 360 amps .
>>
>> It is a air craft starter engine. My car will weight
>> no more than 1500
>> pounds when done and that's with the batteries and
>> all..
>>
>> What are my choices for controllers that would do a
>> good job for this??
>>
>> I am also assuming that 36 volts will be ok when I
>> use a controller?
>>
>>
>> Thanks Mitchell
>>
>>
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Is this S10 a manual transmission? Manual or power brakes? Manual or
> power steering? It will be easier to get running with the manual
> options, but many on the list have found solutions for power brakes
> (electric vacuum pump) and power steering (electric pump or existing
> pump with a belt to new drive motor). The manual transmission would be
> the easiest to attach to and use, or a much larger motor driving the
> rear end directly, with a much larger controller. The manual
> transmission will allow a more reasonable priced DC motor and controller
> to be used.
Its manual transmission, but power everything else.
> Look at the EV Album and see what others have done with a small truck.
>
> Here is a '95 S10 on ebay that was professionally built, AC drive I
> believe.
>
> Check out Solectria E10: item 140142830024
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1401428300
> 24&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fmotors.search.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle
> %3D140142830024%26fvi%3D1
nice truck :)
>
> Good luck!
>
thanks.
--
Eduardo K. | Roses are #FF0000
http://www.carfun.cl | Violets are #0000FF
http://ev.nn.cl | All my base Are belong to you
|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
> In the past, I tested these EV-1's outside the car,
> but I had trouble. Without a series wound motor
> connected to it, it is difficult. Also, you can't
> free spin a series wound motor, even if I had a spare
> lying around. So, just connecting it to any old
> series motor (unloaded) is a recipe for disaster.
Not necessarily; you can apply just a bit of throttle and spin the motor
without overreving it, however, if you aren't sure the controller works,
best not to risk it applying too much voltage to the motor as it will
overspeed quickly if there is a fault.
> What I did is just put a load between A1 and A2.
> Then, I jumpered from T2 to A1. But, I think the
> device is trying to read a voltage across T2 and A1 to
> calculate how much current is flowing.
You've connected it fine. The controller doesn't measure anything
between T2 and A1 (or A1 and anything). The current sensor is between
A2 and N (bat -ve). The A1 connection is not actually required (it just
connects a diode across the armature).
> I am testing with 36 V (3 x 12 V batteies). The load
> I am using is a perm mag motor.
Probably your PM motor offers too little inductance for the controller
to function properly.
If you've got a big inductor laying around, connect it in series with
the load and see if that doesn't make the controller happier. If you
don't have an inductor, you could wire the field of a series motor in
series with the load. Without the armature powered, the series motor
won't spin up and acts just as an inductor. You should be able to
replace the PM motor with a light bulb in series with a big
inductor/motor field for bench testing.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phelps wrote:
Ok... But I was also told that when you increase the volts, amps will
increase also (In a series motor).
At a fixed rpm, raising the voltage will raise the rpm of a series
motor. But...
a) Your aircraft generator is not a series motor. It is a shunt motor.
In a shunt motor, the current is determined by the load placed on it.
b) The controller will limit the motor current, regardless of what the
motor tries to do.
Making the volts go to 72 would then make the amps go to over 600.
No; raising the voltage to 72v means the motor rpm will be twice as much
for a given field current.
The current the motor draws will depend on the load, and the
controller's current limit setting (whichever is lower).
I used one of these aircraft generators in my first EV, at 72v. It
worked perfectly fine. It didn't overspeed, and it didn't draw too much
current.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello James Drysdale,
Jeff Shanab has a great point here. Think about getting some of the
DeWalt 36 volt lithium battery packs on E-bay. And a charger. However,
before you take them apart for the ten cells inside, consider using the
pack as a whole. When you charge the pack with the DeWalt charger, I
think you get each individual cell to the correct state of charge. The
DeWalt pack has a small lead to each individual cell for monitoring the
charge or discharge, I am not sure. By charging the packs correctly,
they will perform and last well. I have seen pictures where the DeWalt
flashlight tool was disassembled and used to mount a battery to a
bicycle frame. Once several batteries are charged, they are close in
voltage, and others have run two, three or four in parallel on a
bicycle. If you go to 72 volts, you will be able to use more of your
pack in series, and less in parallel.
The DeWalt 36 volt charger completes the charge in just under one hour.
You can stop for lunch and be charged if you can carry enough chargers.
Contact me off list and I can send you the contact I have who uses the
DeWalt batteries. He is helpful. I also received a wiring diagram on
how to connect to the battery.
Where are you from? Be careful purchasing on E-bay. I have found many
good sellers, and one that ships slowly, who sells to the US and
Australia. Check feedback on E-bay.
Alan Brinkman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:13 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
40ah for a bicycle? even at only 36V, that seems like an awfully large
pack.
I would think that the closest to lead acid in chargeing and balancing
is actually the lifepo4 cells. The cost is, of course, the issue.
As a test. 4-36V dewalt packs from ebay may be a good way. Take them
apart to get at the main power as the built in controller is probably
too low of amps
That would only be only 9ah by 36V but the reduced weight helps range
and they don't have problem with the amps.
In this application it might be interesting to see if the built in
controllers could work in parallel to provide an all in one soulution.
You could even have two sets of packs and have one set on charge while
the other is in use.
40AH * 36Volts of lead-acid is not really 40ah maybe 30 at low amps.
2hour instead of 20hour rate?
30ah * 36V in LiFePo4 (26650's) would be 11*13 =143 cells, and is 22lbs
raw cell weight.
(Inserted James Drysdale's question here)
G'day all.
First up, if you don't know me here, its because I don't yet have an EV
and don't really have much to add to the discussions that go on here.
Secondly, I am not a troll, and am building my first EV, an electric
bicycle, and thankyou to those members that gave me assistance.
Some background.....
The battery capacity for my bicycle that I was originally aiming for was
40Ah. I thought Ni-MH would be a good solution as lead-acid would be
very heavy and as it was a relatively small battery, the cost of Ni-MH
cells would be okay.
What I found was that Ni-MH was more expensive that what I expected.
Even when I contacted an electronics wholesaler, on the recommendation
of one of their resellers, using 600 2Ah cells to obtain 36v and 40Ah
would cost $AU1800 ($US1540) That is for cells only.
There was another bicycle battery thread here which I responded too, I
think I gave different costings then, but this is what I have worked out
with my most recent data.
I have been researching more.
Chevron own the rights to Ni-MH technology?
Or just a certain method of manufacturing NiMH cells?
Apparently they sued Panasonic for $30 million over an EV-95 line of
Ni-MH cells....
http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
So is it true that a large entity owns the patents for Ni-MH technology,
and as this entity has more to do with oil, "restricts" the availability
of Ni-MH cells?
FROM WEBSITE
http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
"Chevron's unit that controls the patents, *cobasys, *refuses to sell
their version of the battery unless, they say, they get "a large OEM
order". Apparently, they also refuse to let anyone else sell it, either"
Is this why lead-acid is still the only viable technology? Even for a
crappy bicycle?
Is there some Chinese or Taiwanese manufacturer that builds Ni-MH cells
free of restraint from Chevron?
I did find a couple of companies supplying cells, my bookmarks were
deleted with a we browser update, so I don't have their addresses :-(
But their prices, although a little lower, were not enough to justify an
international order, particularly once shipping was added.
Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
company that has its stakes in oil????
Cheers,
James Drysdale.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The reason I power my FIELD wiring separately from the
ARMATURE, is so that I have enough torque to start the
car from a deadstop at an incline. When I powered the
field and the armature all through the controller, the
field was being pulsed just as the armature was, and
my controller was going into current overload and
shuting down. It worked ok from flat terrain, but you
give it just a little slope or a rock in the road, and
it would not move. So when it was suggested I power
the field with a separate power pack, and just use the
controller to operate the armature with, it worked out
great. All I needed on the FIELD is 24vdc, and now
can shoot a 72+ power pack through the controller for
the armature of the motor. This setup is working out
great on my car, which is a pretty big vehicle for an
aircraft generator to push. I'm using an inline air
blower to force cool air into the motor for cooling
purposes also, maintaining around 170F at it's highest
temp, with the ambient outside air temp being 98F or
slightly higher at times.
You can limit your current in the programming of the
ALLTRAX controllers also.
--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok .. But I was also told that when you increase the
> volts .. Amps will
> increase also.. In a series motor.
> Making the volts go to 72 would then make the amps
> go to over 600.. What is
> it that I am not understanding?
> So are you telling me that . I can control the amps?
>
> Mitchell
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Tim Humphrey
> Date: 07/30/07 14:22:25
> To: EV
> Subject: Re: Type to use?
>
> Heat (to burn up your motor) comes from amps.
>
> Power (to move your car) comes from watts.
>
> Watts is the product of Amps times Volts.
>
> Lets say that your car needs 10800 watts (10.8KW) to
> cruise at 55MPH.
>
> You have a choice of;
>
> 36V times 300 Amps, which is right at the limit of
> youre motor's rating for
> amps.
>
> Or
>
> 72V times 150 Amps, which is half of the motor's
> rating and will allow it to
> run much cooler.
>
>
> I agree.... Go with the Alltrax 7245 or 7265 and
> shoot for a 72V system.
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Phelps
> > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:57 PM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Type to use?
> >
> > Well this is all new to me.. So I don't know if I
> will keep the voltage
> > the
> > Same .. I don't need a lot of power.. But on the
> other hand I don't want
> > to
> > Wait 3 min to get to 55..
> > I guess as far as increasing the voltage I am a
> bit uneasy with it..
> > Because
> >
> > Of the stamp on the motor reads 30 volts.. Now I
> know I was told that ..
> > The
> >
> > Stamp voltage is only one voltage that will work..
> But if I raise the
> > Voltage and double it would not the motor burn up
> if I cruised the high
> > way
> > For 40 mins?
> > Or is that what you meant by forced air blower? A
> blower to cool the
> > motor..
> >
> > Also Barkley stated.that he powered the
> > Field of my aircraft generator with a separate
> 24volts... What's this
> > about
> > ? Is that just for his take off power?
> > Or is that something that should be done. Will I
> loose out if I don't..
> > Or
> > Just be slower on take off?
> >
> > Mitchell
> >
> > Subject: Re: What type controller..
> >
> > Any controller you desire. Are you planning to
> keep it
> > To 36 volt or go higher eventually?
> > I have the JH-29 starter/generator and it is rate
> 48
> > Volt 450 amps. Evolks drove them up to 96 volts
> but
> > Maintained the 450 amps by using a Curtis. They
> also
> > Ran it with 72 volt using an Alltrax AXE 7245. The
> AXE
> > Series controller are programmable and usually
> > Available from local Golf cart shops Hover they
> used
> > Forced air blowers to run up the voltage. Hope
> this
> > Helps
> > --- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Ok.. It is time for me to look at buying a
> >> controller..
> >>
> >> Like I have stated before I have a Motor that
> takes
> >> 30 volts at 300 amps,,
> >>
> >> However I am planing on using 36 volts and I
> guess
> >> at times that would bring
> >> the current up to 360 amps .
> >>
> >> It is a air craft starter engine. My car will
> weight
> >> no more than 1500
> >> pounds when done and that's with the batteries
> and
> >> all..
> >>
> >> What are my choices for controllers that would do
> a
> >> good job for this??
> >>
> >> I am also assuming that 36 volts will be ok when
> I
> >> use a controller?
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks Mitchell
> >>
> >>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me clear up some confusion.
NEDRA is an "Alternative Sanctioning Body" from the perspective of
the NHRA. Thus, we can operate NEDRA sanctioned races at NHRA tracks
and the track liability insurance will cover the NEDRA event.
Basically, the NHRA has said that the NEDRA safety rules are "OK" for
their tracks.
Additionally, the NHRA has incorporated NEDRA's safety rules (not
the NEDRA vehicle classifications) into the NHRA rulebook. Thus, you
may run EVs that otherwise fall within the existing NHRA
classifications in NHRA bracket races.
A motorcycle with more than two wheels doesn't fit in the existing
NHRA vehicle classifications. It DOES fit in the NEDRA vehicle
classifications. Thus, you can run at NHRA tracks, and compete in
NEDRA records and events, (also test-and-tunes, exhibition runs,
etc.) but, technically, you can't compete in NHRA bracket racing.
If one of the other competitors lodges a protest, you could be
prevented from competing (and wining a prize) in an NHRA bracket race
with a three-wheeled vehicle.
The track doesn't care because you are covered by the insurance.
This is because you are following the NHRA safety rules and fit
within the NEDRA vehicle classifications. The other competitors might
care, however, and could protest your vehicle because it does not
technically fit the bracket racing class rules.
This was the same for the reverse gear requirement for Wayland, by
the way. Until NEDRA made it a rule that reverse was required, the
track didn't care (but the other competitors might have made it a
classification issue.)
Of course, as usual, my opinion on these matters is of no value,
consequence, nor has it any official standing whatsoever. :-)
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> The Deka Intimidator 9A31 AGM batteries (12v, 100ah @
> C/20) in my Geo EV (www.austinev.org/evalbum/701)
> have been emitting a noxious odor. The odor is strong
> enough to encourage maintaining cross-ventilation in
> the 14'x25' garage that the EV resides in. That's even
> if the batts simply remain idle for a day and longer.
>
> Its a chronic odor that increases on the discharge.
> When driving, a 2" fan in the rear battery box pulls
> some air thru the cabin, but its not enough.
As you are aware, your AGMs shouldn't emit any odour when driving or
charging.
When driving, do you notice the odour very soon into your trip, or does
it only become apparent after you've driven a fair distance?
One of my AGMs failed, and I would get a pronounced odour in the cabin
while driving once I'd driven long enough to remove about 20Ah. There
was no odour from the start of the trip until then. Even then, there
was no odour during charging. The odour I would get if I drew the pack
down far enough would dissipate quickly enough when the load was removed
that it was not evident at all the following morning after charging
overnight in a relatively sealed garage.
> There is one 3 amp output Soneil/ACI charger per
> battery. The chargers are bringing the batts to
> 14.5v-14.7v then floating at 13.6, increasing to 13.9
> if left plugged in for a few hours.
You have the chargers mounted where you can verify that each and every
one has finished sucessfully before you drive away? Have you verified
the outputs to confirm that each one is bringing its battery to the
required voltage?
> Perhaps the chargers are taking the batts a little
> high now. But the batts were stinky thru the winter
> since installation when if anything, the Soneils were
> slightly undercharging the batteries.
>
> So it is not obvious to me that overcharging is a
> cause of the odor emissions.
It is hard to believe that a 3A charger could overcharge a 100Ah battery
to the point of venting, expecially if you aren't leaving them running
for extended periods, however, if you weren't over-charging they
shouldn't be venting.
Do you have any idea how many Ah you typically remove from the batteries
between charges? I'm wondering if the problem here isn't that these
little chargers just can't get your batteries refilled before you take
the car back out, and so you've been chronically undercharging the
batteries. For instance, if you pulled 30Ah it would take these little
chargers about 12hrs to refill the batteries (possibly longer, as there
is no guarantee that they actually deliver 3A right up to full battery
voltage).
> I'd like to eliminate these battery emissions in the
> near term. Suggestions?
If you've got a voltmeter, connect it to one of the batteries and keep
an eye on the meter while you drive. If the meter has a min/max hold
feature, you could use that to track the minimum voltage so you don't
have to keep glancing at the meter all the time. Record the minimum
voltage seen on your typical drive, and repeat this process for each
battery in the pack. Hopefully you should find one that stands out as
sagging significantly more than the others. If you have an electric
heater, DC/DC, etc that allows you to put a 15-20A load on the pack, you
might be able to speed this test up by measuring each battery's voltage
while loaded at 15-20A after a drive and before charging.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
