EV Digest 7088
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Acid Coloring ? for Lead Acid Batteries
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: DIY Electric Car Forums
by "Roger Daisley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hanging with Victor...EVision description
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Acid Coloring ? for Lead Acid Batteries
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Honeywell DCP 700 Programmer Controller 120V
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Planning for the next conversion- Batteries and controllers
by Don Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Planning for the next conversion- Batteries and controllers
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
by David Wilker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Curtis controller voltage questions [was Re: Re: Could higher pack
voltage be stepped down for Curtis input?]
by Markus Lorch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Albright Contactor Failure Modes
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: [OT] Satellite Internet (was: DIY Electric Car Forums)
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Low resistance wheels
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Belleville (or other) washers
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Acid Coloring ? for Lead Acid Batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Additional Motor Inductance/better acceleration
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Prestolite Timing, low frequency Curtis Start
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Is there an additive that can change the color of the
battery acid, so that it can be seen in the battery a
little easier? It would help me out quite alot when
checking the acid level. What would really be cool, is
if it would change color with regards to the specific
gravity of the acid. Any chemists out there?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Clearwire (WIMax) offers VOIP service in certain areas.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BLOG: http://rdaisley.blogspot.com
[New messages/photos daily]
-----Original Message-----
From: Zeke Yewdall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 2:51 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: DIY Electric Car Forums
Nope -- VOIP cannot be used on any of the satellite internet services that
I've checked out -- to high a latency due to going up to geosynchronous
orbit and back. Plus, I think they are concerned about bandwidth -- because
if you try to use VOIP, they will shut down your service. I have wildblue,
and it is great -- I can work from home several days a week instead of
commuting. I still have to have a landline for phone (cell phones don't
work at my house)
BUT.... we are getting WAY off topic here.
On 7/30/07, Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wonder if any of these satellite tv and internet companies offer phone
service too. Or does satellite technology make cell phones viable for people
who live in the country already? Anyway, this is where cable modems really
shine and hopefully a satellite modem could do the same thing. When our
house had dial-up, the only reason we had a land line at all was for the
computer. We were already using cell phones. When we switched to cable, we
disconnected the land line and saved ourselves that $25 per month. We also
got rid of AOL, so we did not have to worry about that $25 a month anymore.
We did have to upgrade our cell phone service, so there was some additional
cost involved, but between the AOL charges and the Qwest charges, our COX
cable bill was basically covered. Is a scenario like this possible with
Satellite Internet?
>
> Brian
>
>
> ---- Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> =============
>
>
> > I have a dial-up connection that normally connects as a fast 28.8
> > speed. This is the best that I can get since I live out in the
> > country where cable and DSL is not available.
>
>
> I don't want to be a spammer but,
>
> Those of you caught in this situation may wish to consider....
>
> www.wildblue.com
>
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 28, 2007, at 11:17 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
This is an option, so if you want it, you just get version with
sensor, I don't see what is the worry. OHOH, few people said -
EVision does too many things for their likes - they would be happy
with $25 Ah raw counter, nothing more. I guess you get
as many opinions as many people you ask.
Oh - I think that was directed at me :-) Actually, I was figuring it
would be more like a $100 raw Ah counter, but clearly you got the idea.
Lite version will not have speed sensor and also data streaming
ability for those who just want to drive and don't care about
technicality of it. That's the plan. Again, if one doesn't like
spartan version, there is always full featured one.
Could you let me know when this version will be entering the testing
stage? I'm most interested. (I got a working speedometer :-)
Paul Gooch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Brian
Phil Marino here. I'll put my comments within your post:
From: Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
CC: Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 0:42:29 -0700
Well, if decreasing the width of the tire causes it to deflect more, then
yes, the contact patch may >remain constant. Then again, it could decrease.
It could increase as well. Whether the contact patch >are decreases,
increases, or stays the same depends on tire pressure, vehicle weight (or
mass for all of >you metric wing nuts out there :-D ), side wall stiffness.
Oh heck, while we're at it, lets throw in tire >air temperature. I don't
think that a tire's contact patch is as directly proportional to tire
pressure and >vehicle weight as you claim. I could be wrong though.
The contact patch size does not directly affect rolling resistance. I've
read that it does several times on this list, but I haven't yet heard a
logical explanation for that link.
But, to answer the contact patch vs tire width question anyway, here is a
quote from a technical paper by Boeing Aircraft ( search for Boeing, and
"calculating tire area")
" The tire contact area for any aircraft tire is calculated by dividing the
single wheel load by the tire inflation pressure. If the load is expressed
in pounds, and the tire pressure in pounds per square inch, then the area is
in inches squared. "
They are referring to aircraft tires. But, the same principle applies to
car tires. To demonstrate this for yourself, see how much load a mounted
tire with no air pressure will support. That will show how little the
sidewall stiffness contributes to supporting the load on the tire. Almost
all of the load is supported by the tire pressure.
However, if I am wrong, why do road riders (bicyclists) use such narrow
tires? Why do so many small >EVs and cars like GM's Sun Racer use such
narrow tires? Is it only for the sake of keeping rotating >weight down? I
don't think that's the only reason.
Good questions. I answered them a couple of posts ago, but here is a better
explanation. This is from the Schwalbe tire company -
http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance
First, here is their explanation of why wider tires have lower rolling
resistance ( at the same pressure):
"Which factors affect rolling resistance?
Tire pressure, tire diameter, tire construction, tire tread and other
factors all have an effect on rolling resistance.
The higher the tire pressure, the less is tire deformation and thus the
rolling resistance.
Small diameter tires have a higher rolling resistance at the same tire
pressure, because tire deformation is proportionally more important, in
other words the tire is less round.
Wider tires roll better than narrow ones. This assertion generally generates
skepticism, nevertheless at the same tire pressure a narrow tire deflects
more and so deforms more."
And, in more detail: ( still from Schwalbe):
"Why do wide tires roll better than narrow ones?
The answer to this question lies in tire deflection. Each tire is flattened
a little under load. This creates a flat contact area.
At the same tire pressure, a wide and a narrow tire have the same contact
area. A wide tire is flattened over its width whereas a narrow tire has a
slimmer but longer contact area.
The flattened area can be considered as a counterweight to tire rotation.
Because of the longer flattened area of the narrow tire, the wheel loses
more of its roundness and produces more deformation during rotation.
However, in the wide tire, the radial length of the flattened area is
shorter, making the tire rounder and so it rolls better."
And here is why bicycle racers use narrow tires ( again, from Schwalbe)
"Why do Pros ride narrow tires if wide tires roll better?
Wide tires only roll better at the same inflation pressure, but narrow tires
can be inflated to higher pressures than wide tires. However, they then
obviously give a less comfortable ride.
In addition to this, narrow tires have an advantage over wide ones at higher
speeds, as they provide less air resistance.
Above all, a bicycle with narrow tires is much easier to accelerate because
the rotating mass of the wheels is lower and the bicycle is much more
agile."
Oh here's another example, though one that people are probably not as
familiar with. Why did my street luge go so much faster with 4 roller blade
wheels on it than it did with 4 skate board wheels on it? It also had less
traction with the roller blade wheels. Man, that was a scary ride! :)
Roller blade and skate board wheels don't really flex at all, but man, what
a difference in top speed!
Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I have been successfully operating with the
understanding that a narrower tire will give a smaller contact patch and
therefore decrease rolling resistance for so long that I have a hard time
believing that contact patch is dependent only on tire pressure and vehicle
mass.
Well, Schwabe said that the fact that wide tires have lower RR generates
skepticism, so you're certainly not alone.
Phil
Brian
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
I haven't had the time I've wanted to address my
thoughts toward brush timing like I'd like. Rather
than watch another timing thread go by I thought I'd
throw some thoughts at the group.
Most DC motors are designed to be ran neutral and at a
particular voltage, and in fact I spent most of my
first 25 years building motors making sure they went
out that way (older forklift motors had adjustable
brush rings). It wasn't until I ran into Wayland that
I had to start learning how and when to throw them out
of wack, so to speak.
So why advance the brushes when neutral is more eff?
The first issue (for those that are new) is when the
motor commutator arcs in what's been termed a
flashover. This is caused by using higher voltages
than the motor was intended for, which causes the
field magnetics to shift which in turn causes the
brushes to arc as they are no longer "in tune" with
the fields. By advancing the brushes they line up
with the fields when the motor is seeing that higher
voltage and is running harder.
By advancing the brushes you also see the motors power
band shift further up the RPM scale. I've had reports
of both "love" and "hate" increased advancement. The
problem is "when to advance"?
It was just last year that Pat Sweeney flashed his
daily driver ADC motor, when he did it a second time,
he sent it to me, where I found it running in neutral.
After some cleanup and a few parts and setting it via
the OEM advancement holes he's had no issues, besides
a little loss on his takeoff 8^(
Sometimes lifes a trade off, lose a little eff, or
repair your motor a lot 8^P Now this doesn't apply to
lower voltage EV's as much, but again that depends a
lot on what motor one is using compared to what
voltage it's being run at.
I haven't heard from Bill as to when the brush shift
was taking place on Killacycle, or how well he and
scotty thought it was working but it was, I thought, a
successful test of an on the fly brush timing shift.
Being able to smoothly adjust the timing on DC motors
as they run (just like an ICE) would help squeeze both
better eff as well as performance.
As I'm running short of time my advise to those in
doubt is to advance the brushes and avoid themselves
the costs of motor repairs. As Jeff's done a great
write up on this MTC motor, I thought I'd post a bit
for those not using the standard fare motors 8^)
BTW Jeff, I know exactly what you meant with the MJU
plates 8^) I'll see if I can dig some plates out (if
I have any) and grab some pics of the different hole
positions per your description.
Anyway, yeah neutrals better for you dailies... right
up to the point when you zorch your motor. IMO it's
kind of like condom use, do you really want to chance
"not" using it 8^) Of course the higher the juice
flow the more that it's needed 8^o
Hope this helps
Had fun
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel
and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can make your own ph paper from beet juice.
It measures ph therefore a little in the battery acid might change color
according to the ph of the battery.
If you put it or any other ph coloring agent in a clear acrlyllic
battery case it might be a color changing battery.
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 8:02 pm, Michael Barkley wrote:
Is there an additive that can change the color of the
battery acid, so that it can be seen in the battery a
little easier? It would help me out quite alot when
checking the acid level. What would really be cool, is
if it would change color with regards to the specific
gravity of the acid. Any chemists out there?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Saw this on ebay while putzing around. Thought someone might be interested
- I suspect this is not
an EV type controller, but might still have some value to the right person.
Item no. 330133053932
http://cgi.ebay.com/Honeywell-DCP-700-Programmer-Controller-120V_W0QQitemZ330133053932QQihZ014QQcategoryZ4661QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jim, I pretty much agree with you on this. If in doubt advance. When
you mention high voltage you do not mention parameters. High voltage is a
very nebulous term. When I was first involved with EVs I would say that 120
volts was high voltage. Advanced DC motors used to come with three sets of
holes, one neutral, one advanced about seven degrees and one for clockwise
rotation. This worked great up to about 144 volts. When Advanced DC set
their brushes to neutral for Sparrows and upped the rating of their stock 8
inch to a name plate rating of 156 volts they ran into all kinds of
problems. They almost drove one small controller manufacturer out of
business. They did not realize that people do not go in reverse as fast as
they do in forward. This little piece of information that was missing from
their brains was disastrous for many consumers. Like I said, it is all
nebulous and depends on the motor and the voltage but I personally would
never recommend that a commuter vehicle run no advance above say 96 volts. I
guess this may just be my opinion. You should ask some of the early Sparrow
owners and others for real life scenarios.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde
Vintage Golf Cart Parts
Specializing in Parts for Harley and many other mature carts
www.vintagegolfcartparts.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone: 360-385-4868
P.O. Box 221
Port Townsend, WA 98368
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
Hey all
I haven't had the time I've wanted to address my
thoughts toward brush timing like I'd like. Rather
than watch another timing thread go by I thought I'd
throw some thoughts at the group.
Most DC motors are designed to be ran neutral and at a
particular voltage, and in fact I spent most of my
first 25 years building motors making sure they went
out that way (older forklift motors had adjustable
brush rings). It wasn't until I ran into Wayland that
I had to start learning how and when to throw them out
of wack, so to speak.
So why advance the brushes when neutral is more eff?
The first issue (for those that are new) is when the
motor commutator arcs in what's been termed a
flashover. This is caused by using higher voltages
than the motor was intended for, which causes the
field magnetics to shift which in turn causes the
brushes to arc as they are no longer "in tune" with
the fields. By advancing the brushes they line up
with the fields when the motor is seeing that higher
voltage and is running harder.
By advancing the brushes you also see the motors power
band shift further up the RPM scale. I've had reports
of both "love" and "hate" increased advancement. The
problem is "when to advance"?
It was just last year that Pat Sweeney flashed his
daily driver ADC motor, when he did it a second time,
he sent it to me, where I found it running in neutral.
After some cleanup and a few parts and setting it via
the OEM advancement holes he's had no issues, besides
a little loss on his takeoff 8^(
Sometimes lifes a trade off, lose a little eff, or
repair your motor a lot 8^P Now this doesn't apply to
lower voltage EV's as much, but again that depends a
lot on what motor one is using compared to what
voltage it's being run at.
I haven't heard from Bill as to when the brush shift
was taking place on Killacycle, or how well he and
scotty thought it was working but it was, I thought, a
successful test of an on the fly brush timing shift.
Being able to smoothly adjust the timing on DC motors
as they run (just like an ICE) would help squeeze both
better eff as well as performance.
As I'm running short of time my advise to those in
doubt is to advance the brushes and avoid themselves
the costs of motor repairs. As Jeff's done a great
write up on this MTC motor, I thought I'd post a bit
for those not using the standard fare motors 8^)
BTW Jeff, I know exactly what you meant with the MJU
plates 8^) I'll see if I can dig some plates out (if
I have any) and grab some pics of the different hole
positions per your description.
Anyway, yeah neutrals better for you dailies... right
up to the point when you zorch your motor. IMO it's
kind of like condom use, do you really want to chance
"not" using it 8^) Of course the higher the juice
flow the more that it's needed 8^o
Hope this helps
Had fun
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user
panel and lay it on us.
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.25/926 - Release Date: 7/29/2007
11:14 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I couldn't find a web site, I just called Peter.
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
Don Buckshot wrote:
You may already be aware that the Raptors are now being built and
supported by Peter Senkowsky in California, 707-350-0156
do they have a website?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter's email is [EMAIL PROTECTED] - make sure you put something like
"DCP Raptor Controller Inquiry" in the subject line so he will enable
incoming email from your address. He does not have a web site.
Mike
From: Don Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Planning for the next conversion- Batteries and controllers
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:51:31 -0500
I couldn't find a web site, I just called Peter.
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
Don Buckshot wrote:
You may already be aware that the Raptors are now being built and
supported by Peter Senkowsky in California, 707-350-0156
do they have a website?
_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dumb question time:
Can you rig an advance mechanism that would retard/advance the brushes in
relation to RPM and/or volts/amps?
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
---- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey all
I haven't had the time I've wanted to address my
thoughts toward brush timing like I'd like. Rather
than watch another timing thread go by I thought I'd
throw some thoughts at the group.
Most DC motors are designed to be ran neutral and at a
particular voltage, and in fact I spent most of my
first 25 years building motors making sure they went
out that way (older forklift motors had adjustable
brush rings). It wasn't until I ran into Wayland that
I had to start learning how and when to throw them out
of wack, so to speak.
So why advance the brushes when neutral is more eff?
The first issue (for those that are new) is when the
motor commutator arcs in what's been termed a
flashover. This is caused by using higher voltages
than the motor was intended for, which causes the
field magnetics to shift which in turn causes the
brushes to arc as they are no longer "in tune" with
the fields. By advancing the brushes they line up
with the fields when the motor is seeing that higher
voltage and is running harder.
By advancing the brushes you also see the motors power
band shift further up the RPM scale. I've had reports
of both "love" and "hate" increased advancement. The
problem is "when to advance"?
It was just last year that Pat Sweeney flashed his
daily driver ADC motor, when he did it a second time,
he sent it to me, where I found it running in neutral.
After some cleanup and a few parts and setting it via
the OEM advancement holes he's had no issues, besides
a little loss on his takeoff 8^(
Sometimes lifes a trade off, lose a little eff, or
repair your motor a lot 8^P Now this doesn't apply to
lower voltage EV's as much, but again that depends a
lot on what motor one is using compared to what
voltage it's being run at.
I haven't heard from Bill as to when the brush shift
was taking place on Killacycle, or how well he and
scotty thought it was working but it was, I thought, a
successful test of an on the fly brush timing shift.
Being able to smoothly adjust the timing on DC motors
as they run (just like an ICE) would help squeeze both
better eff as well as performance.
As I'm running short of time my advise to those in
doubt is to advance the brushes and avoid themselves
the costs of motor repairs. As Jeff's done a great
write up on this MTC motor, I thought I'd post a bit
for those not using the standard fare motors 8^)
BTW Jeff, I know exactly what you meant with the MJU
plates 8^) I'll see if I can dig some plates out (if
I have any) and grab some pics of the different hole
positions per your description.
Anyway, yeah neutrals better for you dailies... right
up to the point when you zorch your motor. IMO it's
kind of like condom use, do you really want to chance
"not" using it 8^) Of course the higher the juice
flow the more that it's needed 8^o
Hope this helps
Had fun
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel
and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there any way to step down that pack voltage to
around 150-160 volts for input into the existing
Curtis 1231 controller (rated 144v nominal max)?
The Curtis 1231 is rated for a *nominal* 144v pack maximum. You really
don't want to run it with a nominal pack voltage above this. The parts
inside are rated at 200v peak. A 144v pack freshly off a 2.5v/cell
charge will be at 180v, and there will be voltage spikes that go above
this.
Hi Lee and other curtis specialists,
I have a 1221R rated at 84V, 375A. I see peak battery currents of up to
500A and quickly settling to 350A then down to 250A when I push it. I
try to drive with less than 160A which is 1C for my batteries.
I currently run my curtis with 90V nominal and am wondering if I can
take it any higher, i.e. if all curtis rely on the same parts hence I
could do a 120V or 144V pack without having to replace parts?? or is
there a fair chance that something will break?
I suspect I have to open it and adjust some pots, like over voltage? and
regen voltage? .. I notice that when my batteries are pretty full and I
use regen then it can be very choppy, especially at slow speeds. With
empty batteries this problem is not present. Hence I believe that my
increase from 84 to 90V nominal already put the regen setting to its
limit. What other things would need adjusting and does anybody have a
schematic or guide which pots are for what. I have looked at the one
from Otmar which I would use as an initial guide if there are no other
guides.
Based on the feedback I received on this list earlier I came up with the
following plan:
If I can do a higher voltage pack with the curtis I would go for 84V out
of my 6V 160A gel blocks plus an additional 36V out of three 12V 100Ah
blocks. I would use the 84V for my cruising load and when I need more
power I would switch in the additional 36V via two large contactors.
This should get me more RPM in 2nd gear and hence more speed without
increasing amperage. I would need to monitor the 12V batts closely, they
would behave like weak blocks and be empty first but I would only use
them for accelleration. When cruising or when in regen mode the
controller would only be connected to the 84V from the main pack.
Alternatively I was thinking about keeping the current 90V pack of gels
(which at moderate currents is still good for up to 35 miles) and
have a second (small) 84V pack of AGMs or similar. The second pack could
be connected via a diode in parallel with the first pack and would
deliver current when the gel pack sacks more than the AGM pack, hence
the AGM pack should shoulder most of the high current draws while the
gel pack should ideally provide a "base current" of up to 1C (160A).
A full AGM pack is too much money for me and I decided that even when I
have to buy a new pack I will go with 6V GEL as they will last the
longest. The only drawback is the weight as I am primarily concerned
with the hillclimbing. I guess there is no easy way around it and as a
second battery pack will increase my weight I think it is best if I only
carry enough "additional" batteries for the peak usage times, i.e.
accelleration and up to 3 mi. hills.
Am I on a valid track or do you guys think this is totally nuts?
Markus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You would first have to know how the neutral plane of the fields advances with
increasing voltage, current and RPM. This would be no trivial task to figure
out for any particular motor. And it would most likely be as different for
different motors as the Torque curves. That being said though there is already
one example of a single step shift at some point in the RPM band for
Killacycle. For them its good before and good after the shift, so I guess it
works. To vary the timing continuously with RPM may be add a little more
complexity than its worth. But I'm sure it can be done, and most likely will
someday as these racers start fighting for hundredths of seconds :-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of David Wilker
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:14 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Cc: Jim Husted
> Subject: Re: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
>
>
> Dumb question time:
> Can you rig an advance mechanism that would retard/advance the brushes in
> relation to RPM and/or volts/amps?
>
>
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can anyone tell me the common failure modes for an Albright SW-200 with the
auxiliary contacts? Aside from welding contacts,
Do the contacts ever get hung during switching? Keep them clean I suppose?
Do the auxiliary contacts ever get out of alignment such that a Zilla
controller would not read them as active (or inactive)?
Thanks
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
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VoIP works on WildBlue, but with a large-ish delay. The Satellites are
22,000 miles out, so that's a 44,000 mile round trip, which takes the radio
signal almost a half second to travel. This means there is a delay in the
voice.
But, yes, it works.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Jackson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: DIY Electric Car Forums
I wonder if any of these satellite tv and internet companies offer phone
service too. Or does satellite technology make cell phones viable for
people who live in the country already? Anyway, this is where cable modems
really shine and hopefully a satellite modem could do the same thing. When
our house had dial-up, the only reason we had a land line at all was for
the computer. We were already using cell phones. When we switched to cable,
we disconnected the land line and saved ourselves that $25 per month. We
also got rid of AOL, so we did not have to worry about that $25 a month
anymore. We did have to upgrade our cell phone service, so there was some
additional cost involved, but between the AOL charges and the Qwest
charges, our COX cable bill was basically covered. Is a scenario like this
possible with Satellite Internet?
Brian
---- Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
=============
I have a dial-up connection that normally
connects as a fast 28.8 speed. This is the best that I can get since I
live out
in the country where cable and DSL is not available.
I don't want to be a spammer but,
Those of you caught in this situation may wish to consider....
www.wildblue.com
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
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michelin seems to still be working on their tweel thing and I saw a
quote that said it was only 5% the roll resistance of a normal tire
http://www.michelinman.com/difference/releases/pressrelease01102005a.html
really disgusting line at the end of this though:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pcdmH_hVWBY
'in 10-15 years'
so we'll probably never get them. (they've been working on them since 95
already)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fqRJ9GfIJtI
Dan
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I've been thinking about using Belleville washers at the standard connection
points and got wondering about why Belleville - why not a standard lock washer.
Isn't the basic principle the same with any type of locking washer: exploit
the elasticity of steel to maintain constant pressure on a bolt? Any comments
or opinions (talk about a loaded question!!) ? :)
TIA
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
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You could contact the Exide Battery Company on how they color the battery
acid. We install a pack of Exide 12 volt 20 AH batteries for a emergency
lighting system, that was listed as a cadmium h2so4 electrolyte that was a
color purple.
Roland
----- Original Message ---
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 8:02 pm, Michael Barkley wrote:
> > Is there an additive that can change the color of the
> > battery acid, so that it can be seen in the battery a
> > little easier? It would help me out quite alot when
> > checking the acid level. What would really be cool, is
> > if it would change color with regards to the specific
> > gravity of the acid. Any chemists out there?
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
>
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Hi Mark,
You run a by-pass? Not many do, that I am aware of.
This is with the MTC motor, right?
Anyway, regarding additional motor inductance. Yea,
sometimes these high speed motors would be called
rotating short circuits by those involved in control.
Increased PWM frequency helps. Adding inductance to
the motor circuit with chokes, inductors or reactors
or whatever you call them is a fix when you're stuck
with existing components. From the get-go, it would
have been better to put the additional steel and
copper (used in the choke) into the motor. A bigger,
higher inductance motor motor makes more sense than
external inductance. But working with what you have,
nice way to raise the average current when the peak
current is limiting.
You know, the MTC motor was designed with a little
heavier field just to get the inductance up to where
it's at. This makes it a good candidate for field
weakening. Once you're in by-pass, you can switch in
a field diverter resistor and increase motor speed.
You'd want to use some smarts so that the control
never attempts to chop with the field weakened. A 19
milliOhm diverter resistor is good for the MTC. Would
give you another 500 RPM or so.
Also, how did you get the inductance of the motor?
You know that value is current dependent. Probably
doesn't make a big difference in what you're doing.
Which BTW, I love to see. Keep playing and let us
know results.
Jeff
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Since I have a 400A 2kHz ye-ol Curtis that battery
> amps are limited (noticed
> 50A starting). I decided to try an additional choke
> in series with the
> motor but inside the bypass contactor loop. Since
> T=L/R with the motor
> inductance at 150uh and 58 milli-ohms, the time
> constant to pulse by pulse
> current limit is quick thus limiting the duty cycle
> on start to 2.5ms. By
> doubling the inductance or adding a 150uH choke, the
> start pulse width would
> then be limited to 5ms. So I took a uWave oven
> transformer, angle ground
> off the I bar on the E core and removed the coild
> and magnetic shunt. I
> then put 6 turns of #2 welding wire on and MIG
> welded the I back on the E
> for a 72uH choke measured. I then started the car
> again from a dead stop
> and noticed 80A instead of 50 battery amps and it
> moved quicker into
> operating range. I'll get another dead uWave and
> add another choke for a
> total of 150uH. So if you have acceleration
> problems and you're duty cycle
> limiting on start, try a choke or 2.
>
> Best Regards,
> Mark
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
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Yes, you can, and it's even easier if you do it in
software (using IGBTs instead of brushes and
commutators). Oops, I hope I'm not fanning the AC/DC
debate :-)
> > Dumb question time:
> > Can you rig an advance mechanism that would
> retard/advance the brushes in relation to RPM and/or
> volts/amps?
> >
> >
> > David C. Wilker Jr.
> > USAF (RET)
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
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Hi Jeff & all,
My MTC-4001 had a bar and is going in the factory direction. If it's
advanced 4.5 degrees it has no other 1/4=20 holes for another brush
position. I advanced mechanically in the opposite of direction CW rotation
7 degrees CCW. I bought it surplus with a 70's VW adapter from a friend
with a PMC 25.
BTW, has anyone put chokes in series with their 1231 Curtis controls? I
found that on low frequency controls adding 150uH: twin 1kW uWave oven
transformers with #2 6 turns (72uH each) doubles the acceleration rate at
2kHz due to peak current pulse averaging (extending the T=L/R time
constant).
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark in Roanoke, VA
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:32:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mark,
MTC-4001 was designed for Jet Ind ElectraVan. It used
the Subaru tranny with reverse. So the MTC motor
would only be driven one direction. I forget which,
CW or CCW. But Prestolite used a 4 terminal frame,
S1,S2,A1,A2, and put an external jumper strap from S2
to A2. So the user would have a two terminal
unidirectional motor to work with. Because the
rotation direction was known ahead of time, the
standard MJU-2x comm end head was used which had the
holes for frame mount offset 4.5 degrees. These MJU-2
die cast comm end heads were used for unidirectional
pump motors and reversible traction motors on
Prestolite's standard line for lift trucks. One MJU-2
version with holes neutral for reversible, and
different versions with holes offset one way or the
other for unidirectional pump motors. This is
apparent when you look at the screw heads in the MJU-2
casting. There is a relief. If the screw is in the
middle of the relief, it is neutral. But there is
room such that the holes can be drilled 4.5 degrees
either way.
The 4 terminal frame was used on the MTC-4001 for
standardization of subassemblies and also to give the
user access to the field in case he wished to used
field weakening.
Like I said, I don't recall which was the standard
rotation for MTC-4001. But if you're using the
original equipment strap, you're going the correct
way. That would be A1 to S1 or A2 to S2. That strap
went parallel to the shaft axis. If you have the S to
A jumper skewed around the frame, then it is contrary.
So, it sounds to me like you went from 4.5 to 11.5
degrees advanced. Would explain larger than expected
loss of torque. I suspect the first few degrees of
advance not to diminish torque as much as further on.
Is this a Jet vehicle? Got it on the EValbum?
Hope this helps.
Jeff
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Jeff,
I didn't realize the MTC-4001 was advanced 4.5
degrees, which way? There were only single holes not 2 options for neutral
or
advanced so I don't see how they would manufacture a motor not knowing the
direction of the application. I advanced the motor 7 degrees turning
the brush end CCW into the CW motor direction with the vehicle forward
motion and tapped 4 new 1/4-20 holes for that setting.
(Advance DC engineer said their motors are *not*
advanced since they don't know the user direction or application).
best Regards,
Mark
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:46:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi Mark,
It's great to see you doing some real tests and
sharing. 25 to 33 seconds is more than I expected.
Remember a few weeks ago. I said:
"Chances are you have a 4 pole motor. And your 7
degree figure is actual or mechanical degrees. So
you
really have it advanced 14 electrical degrees. If
you
advanced it 45 mech degrees (90 elect degrees) you
would have zero torque. I am not sure it is a
linear
relationship, but it might give you a feeling. 7
divided by 45 equals 0.155. So your 7 degree shift
might result in 16 percent less torque at current
limit.
Acceleration is proportional to torque. So does 7
degrees equal 16% less torque equal 16% slower
accel?
Give it try and let us know."
Your tests don't sound 100 percent scientific, but
do
show show a trend. Now, if commutation (sparking)
was
acceptable, you've got something.
BTW, I didn't realize you had the MTC-4001. The
factory shift was 4.5 degrees. Did you go 7 degrees
further? Or total?
Jeff
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I stopwatch checked my acceleration starting in 2nd
>gear going from 2 fixed points uphill 10% grade
between my drive & the
>neighbors. I tried 7 degrees mechanical advance
and then set it back to >neutral
>on my Prestolite MTC4001 at 96V E-Porsche 16
ni-cads. I got 33 seconds at >7
>degrees and 25 seconds at neutral and it popped up
my 30% grade garage
>better too with neutral timing. I checked at speed
holding hills and it >was
>at 3600 rpms in 3rd doing 60mph at 250 amps on the
same section of
>highway. I noticed a bit drop-off above that speed
but overall it ran >better
>with better acceleration set to neutral. I think
the low voltage and rpm's
>are the factor.
>
>The racers are operating at higher voltage and
>higher RPM's I believe where the performance is
noticed about 5-6k rpm's
>
>Best Regards,
>Mark
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com
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