EV Digest 7098
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Another Tweety grin...
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: MPG Equivalent ?
by Jeff Mccabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Need help finding resources to make my EV into a part-time series hybrid
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Could higher pack voltage be stepped down for Curtis input?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Could higher pack voltage be stepped down for Curtis input?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Need help finding resources to make my EV into a part-time series
hybrid
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Need help finding resources to make my EV into a part-time series
hybrid
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes
by "Mark Eidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: John Wayland in Wall Street Journal
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: TS chemistry Was A123 chem
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: John Wayland in Wall Street Journal
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: TS chemistry Was A123 chem
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Define EV ! Was:Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Lee, you alright?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: TS chemistry Was A123 chem
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: TS chemistry Was A123 chem
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: John Wayland in Wall Street Journal
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thats hilarious.....ROTFLMAO
The cure for the need for speed ....is Lithium :-O
----- Original Message -----
From: Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: Another Tweety grin...
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> The officer might surprise you badly.. :
>
> " .. Don't try that on me !! I'm regular Wall Street Journal
> reader
> and I bet you're friend of that Zombie guy. Her's $500 more for
> misleading an officer..."
>
> Publicity is not "good" for the cause always :)
>
> Imagine... soon you might have A123s in the Tweety... someday.. why
> not ?
>
> After that the driver might just need it too..
>
> A quote from a drug book in a net somewhere...
>
> "Lithium is used to treat the manic episodes of manic depression.
> Manic
> symptoms include hyperactivity (driving around city teasing ICEs),
> rushed speech (in parking lots to explain what the heck EVs are
> for),
> poor judgment (Drag racing in traffic), reduced need for sleep (who
> the
> heck want's to sleep when you can be out on the treets putting
> shame on
> Ricers and V8s), aggression ("keep yur gusslers out..of.. my..
> WAY!!"),
> and anger (ned new tires! AGAIN ! WTF!)."
>
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> MIKE WILLMON kirjoitti:
> > "But honest officer, this thing is only battery powered, I
> couldn't possibly have layed those 100 ft twin black stripes. It
> must have been that Red 5.0 liter Mustang that was next to me at
> the light. :-O"
> >
> > Do you think that would work for a Pinto? I mean no one in their
> right mind would ever suspect.....a Pinto?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 11:18 am
> > Subject: Re: Another Tweety grin...
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >
> >> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >>> At the next light, a bright blue PT Cruiser pulled
> >>> up. A young lady
> >>> stuck her hand out the window in a thumb’s up
> >>> gesture and said, “Really
> >>> cool ride!�
> >>>
> >>> Made my day! :)
> >> Hey Ken
> >>
> >> She probably just watched you blow away the MC 8^)
> >>
> >> What's funny is I can picture you getting pulled over
> >> by a cop asking you if you're the one who just layed
> >> rubber back at the light, and you replying "What! in
> >> this thing! Please!" LMAO
> >>
> >> Cya
> >> Jim Husted
> >> Hi-Torque Electric
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________>>
> Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from
> >> someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
> >> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you have a Emeter, than you can use the watts per
> mile instead of the AH.
> Of course this will be the average amount of battery
> amperes times battery
> voltages.
>
> Or if you have a AC input volt-amp meter and
> calculated the volts x amps =
My conversion is a DC system?.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/736.
This is how I came up with the watts: 156v x 90amp
@60mph.= 14040 wh./ 60mph=234wh/mi. is that correct ?
> watts for a constant current charger and average out
> the voltage curve or
> better yet, use a AC watt meter to give you how many
> kilowatt hr it takes to
> charge the batteries for a given number of miles.
>
> Or just take the average battery amperes times the
> average voltages for a
> ball park estimate for the wattages.
>
> Now lets say you use about 10k watts to go 50 miles,
> then if you paying 11.5
> cents per kilowatt, then the 50 miles will cost you
> about $0.115 x 10 =
> $1.15
>
> If gasoline is $3.45 a gallon, then $3.45/$1.15 = 3
>
> So you can go 3 times the distance with the electric
> with $3.45 or would be
> equivalent to 3 x 50 miles = 150 miles per gallon
> equiavlent or MPGE
>
> The formula now becomes:
>
> MPGE = ((cost of gal of gas)/(kw use x cost per
> kw))x miles travel
Thanks, I can follow this "mpge"
What I want to do is just find out my mpge for
several speeds, say 25mph, 35 and 60mph. Just to get
an idea of my efficiency.
Thanks again,
Jeff
>
> Roland
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Mccabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "ev-list" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 3:26 PM
> Subject: MPG Equivalent ?
>
>
> > I don't know the formula for figuring my mpg
> > equivalent for my conversion.
> > My nominal pack voltage is 156volts and I'm
> drawing
> > right around 90amps on level ground at 60mph(234
> > wh/mi). Electricity costs me 11.5 cents per
> kilowatt.
> > If you could share the formula so I can save it
> for
> > future testing this would really help.
> > Thanks,
> > Jeff McCabe
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy,
I hope the list priests don't smack me down for this.
I'm looking to make my EV into a part-time series hybrid by adding a
highly efficient diesel crate motor and making it into a generator. I
realize I'll also need control electronics and such.
The biggest thing I need to figure out right now is how to aquire the
motor and any emissions control equipment that should come along with
it. I hear that there is a glut of great used motors in Japan but I
don't know where to start looking for a seller or how to import said
motor. There are design considerations, as well. Once I know what's
available, I can begin to plan the overall design, which will inform
which motor I will purchase and what other components I will need to
assemble the full genset.
While I realize that this is only peripherally an EV topic, I was
hoping some of the folks on the list could point me toward some good
resources.
Thanks,
Matt Kenigson
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/882
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Andre', this doesn't like much more than a series of switches, and not
> all that expensive. A reed switch on one cable, and a heat sensor
> switch on the controller. What else did you have in mind that drives up
> the cost to new controller range?
Hmm well, a pair of highpower contactors (S1 and S2), a high power diode,
and of course the cost of any extra low voltage controllers you happen to
fry trying to get everything right.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> Andre' Blanchard wrote:
>> So now we need a circuit the will only allow S2 to close or remain
>> closed when the motor current is low enough, and the controler is not
>> too hot, and etc..
>> This is the point at which it gets cheaper to buy the right speed
>> control because learning when it is safe to have S2 closed is going to
>> burn up a few of the cheaper controls unless you are real lucky.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> What about adding an inductor to ramp down current when S1 opens?
I must be missing something. Why would you want to do that? Wouldn't
that make matters worse?
>
>
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
>
> ---- Andre' Blanchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 12:29 PM 8/1/2007, you wrote:
>
>>Adding D2 looks like a good move. It should work if you get the details
>>right. You could indeed eliminate S1 in this case, if you didn't mind D2
>>carrying the full motor current at all times.
>>
>>You still don't want to have the controller going at full power when you
>>close S2. When S2 closes, motor current may not ramp down during the
>>controller's off time; it will continue to flow through the 36v pack, the
>>motor, D1, and S2. Nothing limits this current, so it could rise to
>>ruinous levels. If the motor is at low RPM, the current would be high
>>enough to exceed the controller diode's ratings. If the controller turns
>>back on, the MOSFETs could also die from this excessive current.
>>
>>--
>>Ring the bells that still can ring
>>Forget the perfect offering
>>There is a crack in everything
>>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>--
>>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> So now we need a circuit the will only allow S2 to close or remain closed
> when the motor current is low enough, and the controler is not too hot,
> and
> etc..
>
> This is the point at which it gets cheaper to buy the right speed control
> because learning when it is safe to have S2 closed is going to burn up a
> few of the cheaper controls unless you are real lucky.
> __________
> Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Matt. Lee Hart explained how to use a standard AC motor as a DC generator.
You don't need anything except capcitance, though you do have to tweak the
motor a bit. It has been used by one of our members, Alain St. Yves, and here
is the result (his webpage is in French but the generators are briefly
discussed on the album pages):
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/122
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/682
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/122
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Matt Kenigson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 6:28:04 PM
Subject: Need help finding resources to make my EV into a part-time series
hybrid
Howdy,
I hope the list priests don't smack me down for this.
I'm looking to make my EV into a part-time series hybrid by adding a
highly efficient diesel crate motor and making it into a generator. I
realize I'll also need control electronics and such.
The biggest thing I need to figure out right now is how to aquire the
motor and any emissions control equipment that should come along with
it. I hear that there is a glut of great used motors in Japan but I
don't know where to start looking for a seller or how to import said
motor. There are design considerations, as well. Once I know what's
available, I can begin to plan the overall design, which will inform
which motor I will purchase and what other components I will need to
assemble the full genset.
While I realize that this is only peripherally an EV topic, I was
hoping some of the folks on the list could point me toward some good
resources.
Thanks,
Matt Kenigson
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/882
____________________________________________________________________________________
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Eidson wrote:
> I just need to convice them that the vehicle is capable of high way
> speeds. What speed will the 13 HP continuous rating sustain on a bike
> like this? It is geared for 65MPH @ 5000RPM. I agree with the 50HP
> peak number which should be more than sufficient for highway use. My
> commute is 7 miles one way on 45 MPH surface streets so this is not a
> real issue. I could have some fun at stop lights though.......me
Gearing, etc. will affect whether or not you can even get 13HP, but not
what 13HP is capable of.
My favorite tool for this sort of thing is Uve EV calculator. I dialed
in "small aerodynamic FWD car" and then tweaked numbers to yield
something likely to be in the ballpark of your bike. Specifically,
Cd=1.0, A=8 sq.ft., rolling resistance 0.005, brake and steering 0.0,
and fiddle with the weights so that the final total vehicle weight is
800lbs - my estimate of the curb weight of your bike with driver
onboard).
In still air and level ground this hypothetical bike would require:
0.07HP @ 10mph
0.50HP @ 20mph
1.65HP @ 30mph
3.88HP @ 40mph
7.55HP @ 50mph
13.02HP @ 60mph
20.65HP @ 70mph
30.79HP @ 80mph
43.82HP @ 90mph
So, 13HP will probably get you around 60mph. You're only geared for
65mph or a bit more, and your peak HP is enough to push you to quite a
bit higher if your gearing lets the motor develop the needed power at
the needed RPM.
My gut feel is that you're geared to spin the motor too fast and at 72V
it is going to go to sleep on you before you get to top speed. Looking
at the cold peformance curves for the L91-4003 at 75V on EV Parts, at
5000RPM the motor is drawing only 80A and develops about 8HP; 13HP is
available at about 4000RPM, and this is right near peak efficiency for
the motor (at this voltage). But 4000RPM with your present gearing is
about 52MPH. Since 13HP is a fair bit greater than the 7.5HP predicted
to maintain 50MPH, you'll probably accelerate OK up to this speed but
struggle to get much faster, even on flat ground in still air, and will
not reach 60mph with the present gearing.
Once you've got it on the road you'll have a better idea how it
performs, but my guess is that you'll want to re-gear for perhaps
4500RPM @70mph if you want to be able to reach 60mph.
The present gearing has your motor pretty near peak efficiency at the
max speed of your typical commute (45mph), but the efficiency drops off
much faster if you spin the motor faster than if you load it down and
spin it a bit slower.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about using an aircraft generator? I know alot of people are
using them as the drive motor, but it seems like they could also be
used as a pretty high horsepower DC generator... I was toying with
the idea of doing this to my truck. Take the engine from an old
subaru direct coupled (or belt driven, depending on rpm required to
generate 140ish volts DC) to an aircraft generator in the bed of the
truck for power. The engine I'm thinking of is maybe about 20-25
horsepower at 1,800rpm -- just about right for a genset -- and only
about 150lbs too. And given that I keep it above 3,000rpm in the car
alot of the time and they last for 200k+ miles, possibly pretty quiet
and long lived as a generator. Only bad thing is it's not diesel.
Most the diesel engines from japan that I've seen (on ebay) have been
pretty large -- 1.8 liter or larger. You are probably looking more
for a 1.5 liter or smaller engine... you can get new ones from kubota,
diahtsu, etc, but they are pricey. One possibility would be to find
a diesel rabbit engine -- 1.6 liter 52HP (at 5,000rpm). Pretty good
fit, though it is a rather heavy engine, 300lbs or so I think. I know
that I can almost pick up a 1.8 liter subaru engine by myself, but
it's hard to even skid the VW diesel around the shop.
Z
On 8/1/07, David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, Matt. Lee Hart explained how to use a standard AC motor as a DC
> generator. You don't need anything except capcitance, though you do have to
> tweak the motor a bit. It has been used by one of our members, Alain St.
> Yves, and here is the result (his webpage is in French but the generators are
> briefly discussed on the album pages):
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/122
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/682
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/122
>
>
>
>
> David Brandt
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Matt Kenigson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 6:28:04 PM
> Subject: Need help finding resources to make my EV into a part-time series
> hybrid
>
>
> Howdy,
>
> I hope the list priests don't smack me down for this.
>
> I'm looking to make my EV into a part-time series hybrid by adding a
> highly efficient diesel crate motor and making it into a generator. I
> realize I'll also need control electronics and such.
>
> The biggest thing I need to figure out right now is how to aquire the
> motor and any emissions control equipment that should come along with
> it. I hear that there is a glut of great used motors in Japan but I
> don't know where to start looking for a seller or how to import said
> motor. There are design considerations, as well. Once I know what's
> available, I can begin to plan the overall design, which will inform
> which motor I will purchase and what other components I will need to
> assemble the full genset.
>
> While I realize that this is only peripherally an EV topic, I was
> hoping some of the folks on the list could point me toward some good
> resources.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matt Kenigson
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/882
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the detailed analysis. The job right now is just to get it
on the road. I can see a bit taller ratio in my future if I ever get
it on the road. My original design had 8 batteries I guess I did not
think to refigure the gear ratio when I cut back to 6. I should stay
out of trouble with the local gendarmes with the current ratio. me
On 8/1/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark Eidson wrote:
>
> > I just need to convice them that the vehicle is capable of high way
> > speeds. What speed will the 13 HP continuous rating sustain on a bike
> > like this? It is geared for 65MPH @ 5000RPM. I agree with the 50HP
> > peak number which should be more than sufficient for highway use. My
> > commute is 7 miles one way on 45 MPH surface streets so this is not a
> > real issue. I could have some fun at stop lights though.......me
>
> Gearing, etc. will affect whether or not you can even get 13HP, but not
> what 13HP is capable of.
>
> My favorite tool for this sort of thing is Uve EV calculator. I dialed
> in "small aerodynamic FWD car" and then tweaked numbers to yield
> something likely to be in the ballpark of your bike. Specifically,
> Cd=1.0, A=8 sq.ft., rolling resistance 0.005, brake and steering 0.0,
> and fiddle with the weights so that the final total vehicle weight is
> 800lbs - my estimate of the curb weight of your bike with driver
> onboard).
>
> In still air and level ground this hypothetical bike would require:
>
> 0.07HP @ 10mph
> 0.50HP @ 20mph
> 1.65HP @ 30mph
> 3.88HP @ 40mph
> 7.55HP @ 50mph
> 13.02HP @ 60mph
> 20.65HP @ 70mph
> 30.79HP @ 80mph
> 43.82HP @ 90mph
>
> So, 13HP will probably get you around 60mph. You're only geared for
> 65mph or a bit more, and your peak HP is enough to push you to quite a
> bit higher if your gearing lets the motor develop the needed power at
> the needed RPM.
>
> My gut feel is that you're geared to spin the motor too fast and at 72V
> it is going to go to sleep on you before you get to top speed. Looking
> at the cold peformance curves for the L91-4003 at 75V on EV Parts, at
> 5000RPM the motor is drawing only 80A and develops about 8HP; 13HP is
> available at about 4000RPM, and this is right near peak efficiency for
> the motor (at this voltage). But 4000RPM with your present gearing is
> about 52MPH. Since 13HP is a fair bit greater than the 7.5HP predicted
> to maintain 50MPH, you'll probably accelerate OK up to this speed but
> struggle to get much faster, even on flat ground in still air, and will
> not reach 60mph with the present gearing.
>
> Once you've got it on the road you'll have a better idea how it
> performs, but my guess is that you'll want to re-gear for perhaps
> 4500RPM @70mph if you want to be able to reach 60mph.
>
> The present gearing has your motor pretty near peak efficiency at the
> max speed of your typical commute (45mph), but the efficiency drops off
> much faster if you spin the motor faster than if you load it down and
> spin it a bit slower.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like the header advertisement on the Marketplace (B) section of the paper:
AC/DC - For those about to Rock.....
Too bad its not on the same page as the Wayland article ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 4 of the TS-LFP40aha on cycle life testing.
So far very good results.
I am trying to hold them to the %70 DOD spec that yields a 3000 cycle life
curve.
I have Mk3Lion Regs on each cell. I have the top set to 4.01 volts and the
floor I ran 20 cycles with a floor of 2.5 volts. The yielded about %98 DOD
on all 20 cycles.
Damn!! Those cells sure make cheap lead acid look like junk!!
I am now runnig with a floor of 2.80 volts per cell. I hope to restrict the
Ahrs to aproximateley 32. This is the %80 DOD point, When these cycles are
run, Then I am upping the voltage floor to 3.00 volts and hoping the results
will be 28 amp hours, Then I am going to run them for ever!
I expect that by the time I get to cycle 2000 the added shop heat will be a
welcome addition to the heating budget at the Power shop. Right now .. it's
a crime to be making any heat in hot shop in August. Doing PFC40 liquid
coole chargers.. on a 80 Deg day, Well that wasted heat is not doing anybody
any good.
The set up is 4 cells in series, for a 12 volt..aka 16 volt pack, I have 4
modified MK3 Digi regs doing data collection, and Reg/charger feed back for
the high and low Gard voltage feature. The Cycles.. is a 50 amp class
charger set up as a Windloader, and a PFC30 Hanger Queen doing 30 amps of
charge power....Cute pile of equipment, finally earning it's keep.
The Regs do dissapate and equalize the cells when they Reg at 4.01 volts,
This keep the pack equalized on every charge off state. The cycler is
programmed to hold peak volts of 16.00 until the amps taper to 5 amps on the
charge side. And.. the regs hold any one cell in line as well as the
charger.
On discharge I cancell the draw down at the set floor voltage of 2.81 and
when the current drops below 10 amps. So we do get a charge taper and a
discharge taper.
Works for Me.
Any Questions?
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Maynard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 6:29 PM
Subject: RE: A123 chemistry
>
> The ideal charge profile for the TS LiFePO4 chemistry is constant
> current of .3C to 80% SOC, then constant 4.2V to full, according to TS.
>
> I took delivery (Well, it wasn't exactly delivery, the air shipping
> agents were a PITA - reverse engineer the acronym) of some 40Ah and 90Ah
> LFP cells, and was impressed that the relaxed voltage was 3.31V for each
> of 45 cells on arrival, no deviation to the 2nd decimal place. I was
> looking to manifest a parallel "float level maintainer" (to buy storage
> time until BMS) when I measured each cell again 10 days later. Still
> 3.31V for each one after 10 days, although TS says self discharge is
> about 5% per month (or is that .5% ?).
>
> Although that is a relief, I know I have to come up with a safe parallel
> storage charger soon, and better yet, BMS/charge so they can be put on
> some 2-wheelers.
>
> Anyone who has already blazed this trail, advice appreciated (thanks
> Jukka-I'm sure you have your hands full too). Otherwise, I'll see what
> I can come up with and let you know how it works.
>
> -S
>
> -------- Original Message -------
> Subject: RE: A123 chemistryrool
> From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, July 27, 2007 8:38 pm
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>
> I had talked with them early, when they would talk to us normal people.
> and Since then,via email, to the factory in china that claims to make
> the cells for them until they get their own plant going and in boththis
> conversations they have said Lithium-Iron-Phosphate.
>
> But it is easier than this to check. Get out your voltmeter.
>
> Lithium cobalt 3.6Vnominal 4.25Max charge
> Lithium Iron Phosphate 3.2-3.4 3.7 max charge (Easy to tell)
> Lithium-magenese 3.7-3.8 Nominal 4.2Max charge (ok, hard to tell
> compared to cobalt)
>
> http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5A.htm
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip> Great story John. This one's a keeper.
Indeed. I love the quote at the end: "Somebody, please arrest me. I'm
having way too much fun."
Go get 'em Plasma Boy!
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's some cycling data for all of you on list.
Test subject is TS LFP-30 cell. 1st patch ever made.
1600th cycle just got this morning and still holding 69% of the original
capacity.
Now .. All cycles are 1C (from original capacity) charge and discharge.
Discharged to 2V and charged to 4,30V on each cycle.
So 100% what can be taken out in any condition.. I would say.
How's that for the cheapo Chinese stuff.. ??
I'll have the internal resistance numbers coming up later so that might
affect on the 69% somewhat.
-Jukka
Rich Rudman kirjoitti:
I have 4 of the TS-LFP40aha on cycle life testing.
So far very good results.
I am trying to hold them to the %70 DOD spec that yields a 3000 cycle life
curve.
I have Mk3Lion Regs on each cell. I have the top set to 4.01 volts and the
floor I ran 20 cycles with a floor of 2.5 volts. The yielded about %98 DOD
on all 20 cycles.
Damn!! Those cells sure make cheap lead acid look like junk!!
I am now runnig with a floor of 2.80 volts per cell. I hope to restrict the
Ahrs to aproximateley 32. This is the %80 DOD point, When these cycles are
run, Then I am upping the voltage floor to 3.00 volts and hoping the results
will be 28 amp hours, Then I am going to run them for ever!
I expect that by the time I get to cycle 2000 the added shop heat will be a
welcome addition to the heating budget at the Power shop. Right now .. it's
a crime to be making any heat in hot shop in August. Doing PFC40 liquid
coole chargers.. on a 80 Deg day, Well that wasted heat is not doing anybody
any good.
The set up is 4 cells in series, for a 12 volt..aka 16 volt pack, I have 4
modified MK3 Digi regs doing data collection, and Reg/charger feed back for
the high and low Gard voltage feature. The Cycles.. is a 50 amp class
charger set up as a Windloader, and a PFC30 Hanger Queen doing 30 amps of
charge power....Cute pile of equipment, finally earning it's keep.
The Regs do dissapate and equalize the cells when they Reg at 4.01 volts,
This keep the pack equalized on every charge off state. The cycler is
programmed to hold peak volts of 16.00 until the amps taper to 5 amps on the
charge side. And.. the regs hold any one cell in line as well as the
charger.
On discharge I cancell the draw down at the set floor voltage of 2.81 and
when the current drops below 10 amps. So we do get a charge taper and a
discharge taper.
Works for Me.
Any Questions?
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Maynard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 6:29 PM
Subject: RE: A123 chemistry
The ideal charge profile for the TS LiFePO4 chemistry is constant
current of .3C to 80% SOC, then constant 4.2V to full, according to TS.
I took delivery (Well, it wasn't exactly delivery, the air shipping
agents were a PITA - reverse engineer the acronym) of some 40Ah and 90Ah
LFP cells, and was impressed that the relaxed voltage was 3.31V for each
of 45 cells on arrival, no deviation to the 2nd decimal place. I was
looking to manifest a parallel "float level maintainer" (to buy storage
time until BMS) when I measured each cell again 10 days later. Still
3.31V for each one after 10 days, although TS says self discharge is
about 5% per month (or is that .5% ?).
Although that is a relief, I know I have to come up with a safe parallel
storage charger soon, and better yet, BMS/charge so they can be put on
some 2-wheelers.
Anyone who has already blazed this trail, advice appreciated (thanks
Jukka-I'm sure you have your hands full too). Otherwise, I'll see what
I can come up with and let you know how it works.
-S
-------- Original Message -------
Subject: RE: A123 chemistryrool
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, July 27, 2007 8:38 pm
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
I had talked with them early, when they would talk to us normal people.
and Since then,via email, to the factory in china that claims to make
the cells for them until they get their own plant going and in boththis
conversations they have said Lithium-Iron-Phosphate.
But it is easier than this to check. Get out your voltmeter.
Lithium cobalt 3.6Vnominal 4.25Max charge
Lithium Iron Phosphate 3.2-3.4 3.7 max charge (Easy to tell)
Lithium-magenese 3.7-3.8 Nominal 4.2Max charge (ok, hard to tell
compared to cobalt)
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5A.htm
--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIIHIMÄKI
jukka.jarvinen(at)fevt.com
cell phone +358-440-735705
wired phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry guys. I meant to email Mike directly but clearly I cannot drive
gmail properly.
Mike, I stand corrected. Also my knee has stopped jerking.
On 7/31/07, Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey Guys
>
> Not sure how it got here and it's getting off topic
> but in Mikes defense I found this sub-note on the
> words meaning when I looked it up 8^)
>
> Note: Semantics is commonly used to refer to a trivial
> point or distinction that revolves around mere words
> rather than significant issues: "To argue whether the
> medication killed the patient or contributed to her
> death is to argue over semantics."
>
> The American Heritage(r) New Dictionary of Cultural
> Literacy, Third Edition
>
> Although I do feel the word sophistry was better
> suited and is one I'll have to add to my vocabulary
> 8^)
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
> --- Andrew Kane <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Mike, I agree with the substance of your
> > post (below) but I
> > had to email you off-list because of your usage of
> > the word
> > "semantics".
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
> http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just heard about the bridge collapse, hope you were home at the time. Our
thoughts are with those
who were involved.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh.. I forgto to ask...
Rich.. have you measured the over all efficiency with the clampers and
balancing ?
From outlet to motor (or what ever load)
We made such clamping devices with Victor but I had hard time to
convince me that this is the route. It was WAY too wasty.
But.. of couse it works ok. It does the trick and you can have the Lion
in the tank... :)
Balancing by rerouting the energy around the pack is how we are doing it
every day now. We get over 90% out what we put in. With balance.
No balancing sequences in the low and high end of SOC.
After you get more cycles in the pack measure the differences on the
cells and discover how they have evolved.
Any case .. These small cells beat the SLAs in efficiency and cycle
life. So the absolute maximum is not perhaps required. To triple the
lifetime and usability in a car already "pays back" nicely.
I try to come to PIR at 18th. Hope to see some of you there. I tried
already to get to invitational but timing was bad.
-Jukka
Jukka Järvinen kirjoitti:
Here's some cycling data for all of you on list.
Test subject is TS LFP-30 cell. 1st patch ever made.
1600th cycle just got this morning and still holding 69% of the original
capacity.
Now .. All cycles are 1C (from original capacity) charge and discharge.
Discharged to 2V and charged to 4,30V on each cycle.
So 100% what can be taken out in any condition.. I would say.
How's that for the cheapo Chinese stuff.. ??
I'll have the internal resistance numbers coming up later so that might
affect on the 69% somewhat.
-Jukka
Rich Rudman kirjoitti:
I have 4 of the TS-LFP40aha on cycle life testing.
So far very good results.
I am trying to hold them to the %70 DOD spec that yields a 3000 cycle
life
curve.
I have Mk3Lion Regs on each cell. I have the top set to 4.01 volts and
the
floor I ran 20 cycles with a floor of 2.5 volts. The yielded about %98
DOD
on all 20 cycles.
Damn!! Those cells sure make cheap lead acid look like junk!!
I am now runnig with a floor of 2.80 volts per cell. I hope to
restrict the
Ahrs to aproximateley 32. This is the %80 DOD point, When these cycles
are
run, Then I am upping the voltage floor to 3.00 volts and hoping the
results
will be 28 amp hours, Then I am going to run them for ever!
I expect that by the time I get to cycle 2000 the added shop heat will
be a
welcome addition to the heating budget at the Power shop. Right now ..
it's
a crime to be making any heat in hot shop in August. Doing PFC40 liquid
coole chargers.. on a 80 Deg day, Well that wasted heat is not doing
anybody
any good.
The set up is 4 cells in series, for a 12 volt..aka 16 volt pack, I
have 4
modified MK3 Digi regs doing data collection, and Reg/charger feed
back for
the high and low Gard voltage feature. The Cycles.. is a 50 amp class
charger set up as a Windloader, and a PFC30 Hanger Queen doing 30 amps of
charge power....Cute pile of equipment, finally earning it's keep.
The Regs do dissapate and equalize the cells when they Reg at 4.01 volts,
This keep the pack equalized on every charge off state. The cycler is
programmed to hold peak volts of 16.00 until the amps taper to 5 amps
on the
charge side. And.. the regs hold any one cell in line as well as the
charger.
On discharge I cancell the draw down at the set floor voltage of 2.81 and
when the current drops below 10 amps. So we do get a charge taper and a
discharge taper.
Works for Me.
Any Questions?
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Maynard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 6:29 PM
Subject: RE: A123 chemistry
The ideal charge profile for the TS LiFePO4 chemistry is constant
current of .3C to 80% SOC, then constant 4.2V to full, according to TS.
I took delivery (Well, it wasn't exactly delivery, the air shipping
agents were a PITA - reverse engineer the acronym) of some 40Ah and 90Ah
LFP cells, and was impressed that the relaxed voltage was 3.31V for each
of 45 cells on arrival, no deviation to the 2nd decimal place. I was
looking to manifest a parallel "float level maintainer" (to buy storage
time until BMS) when I measured each cell again 10 days later. Still
3.31V for each one after 10 days, although TS says self discharge is
about 5% per month (or is that .5% ?).
Although that is a relief, I know I have to come up with a safe parallel
storage charger soon, and better yet, BMS/charge so they can be put on
some 2-wheelers.
Anyone who has already blazed this trail, advice appreciated (thanks
Jukka-I'm sure you have your hands full too). Otherwise, I'll see what
I can come up with and let you know how it works.
-S
-------- Original Message -------
Subject: RE: A123 chemistryrool
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, July 27, 2007 8:38 pm
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
I had talked with them early, when they would talk to us normal people.
and Since then,via email, to the factory in china that claims to make
the cells for them until they get their own plant going and in boththis
conversations they have said Lithium-Iron-Phosphate.
But it is easier than this to check. Get out your voltmeter.
Lithium cobalt 3.6Vnominal 4.25Max charge
Lithium Iron Phosphate 3.2-3.4 3.7 max charge (Easy to tell)
Lithium-magenese 3.7-3.8 Nominal 4.2Max charge (ok, hard to tell
compared to cobalt)
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5A.htm
--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIIHIMÄKI
jukka.jarvinen(at)fevt.com
cell phone +358-440-735705
wired phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
but are they really cheap? as compared to estimated A123 prices and
known PHET prices
and would A123 not last several times longer?
Dan
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
Here's some cycling data for all of you on list.
Test subject is TS LFP-30 cell. 1st patch ever made.
1600th cycle just got this morning and still holding 69% of the
original capacity.
Now .. All cycles are 1C (from original capacity) charge and discharge.
Discharged to 2V and charged to 4,30V on each cycle.
So 100% what can be taken out in any condition.. I would say.
How's that for the cheapo Chinese stuff.. ??
I'll have the internal resistance numbers coming up later so that
might affect on the 69% somewhat.
-Jukka
Rich Rudman kirjoitti:
I have 4 of the TS-LFP40aha on cycle life testing.
So far very good results.
I am trying to hold them to the %70 DOD spec that yields a 3000 cycle
life
curve.
I have Mk3Lion Regs on each cell. I have the top set to 4.01 volts
and the
floor I ran 20 cycles with a floor of 2.5 volts. The yielded about
%98 DOD
on all 20 cycles.
Damn!! Those cells sure make cheap lead acid look like junk!!
I am now runnig with a floor of 2.80 volts per cell. I hope to
restrict the
Ahrs to aproximateley 32. This is the %80 DOD point, When these
cycles are
run, Then I am upping the voltage floor to 3.00 volts and hoping the
results
will be 28 amp hours, Then I am going to run them for ever!
I expect that by the time I get to cycle 2000 the added shop heat
will be a
welcome addition to the heating budget at the Power shop. Right now
.. it's
a crime to be making any heat in hot shop in August. Doing PFC40 liquid
coole chargers.. on a 80 Deg day, Well that wasted heat is not doing
anybody
any good.
The set up is 4 cells in series, for a 12 volt..aka 16 volt pack, I
have 4
modified MK3 Digi regs doing data collection, and Reg/charger feed
back for
the high and low Gard voltage feature. The Cycles.. is a 50 amp class
charger set up as a Windloader, and a PFC30 Hanger Queen doing 30
amps of
charge power....Cute pile of equipment, finally earning it's keep.
The Regs do dissapate and equalize the cells when they Reg at 4.01
volts,
This keep the pack equalized on every charge off state. The cycler is
programmed to hold peak volts of 16.00 until the amps taper to 5 amps
on the
charge side. And.. the regs hold any one cell in line as well as the
charger.
On discharge I cancell the draw down at the set floor voltage of 2.81
and
when the current drops below 10 amps. So we do get a charge taper and a
discharge taper.
Works for Me.
Any Questions?
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Maynard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 6:29 PM
Subject: RE: A123 chemistry
The ideal charge profile for the TS LiFePO4 chemistry is constant
current of .3C to 80% SOC, then constant 4.2V to full, according to TS.
I took delivery (Well, it wasn't exactly delivery, the air shipping
agents were a PITA - reverse engineer the acronym) of some 40Ah and
90Ah
LFP cells, and was impressed that the relaxed voltage was 3.31V for
each
of 45 cells on arrival, no deviation to the 2nd decimal place. I was
looking to manifest a parallel "float level maintainer" (to buy storage
time until BMS) when I measured each cell again 10 days later. Still
3.31V for each one after 10 days, although TS says self discharge is
about 5% per month (or is that .5% ?).
Although that is a relief, I know I have to come up with a safe
parallel
storage charger soon, and better yet, BMS/charge so they can be put on
some 2-wheelers.
Anyone who has already blazed this trail, advice appreciated (thanks
Jukka-I'm sure you have your hands full too). Otherwise, I'll see what
I can come up with and let you know how it works.
-S
-------- Original Message -------
Subject: RE: A123 chemistryrool
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, July 27, 2007 8:38 pm
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
I had talked with them early, when they would talk to us normal people.
and Since then,via email, to the factory in china that claims to make
the cells for them until they get their own plant going and in boththis
conversations they have said Lithium-Iron-Phosphate.
But it is easier than this to check. Get out your voltmeter.
Lithium cobalt 3.6Vnominal 4.25Max charge
Lithium Iron Phosphate 3.2-3.4 3.7 max charge (Easy to tell)
Lithium-magenese 3.7-3.8 Nominal 4.2Max charge (ok, hard to tell
compared to cobalt)
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5A.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 1, 2007, at 12:03 PM, MIKE WILLMON wrote:
Don't worry about the crispy motor in the photos. Nobody can
really tell thats its guts are all wrinkled up inside, its got that
nice eye distracting purple paint job ;-) At least they didn't
describe the motor zorching in as much detail as they did with
John's battery zorching. That was some pretty graphic detail with
fire guys in HazMat suits needed to secure the power, doh.
Oh, that was the short version <G>.
Somewhere the long version is posted...
I think its on the Plasmaboyracing web site....
Oh yea, its here...
<http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/?page_id=10>
Enjoy!
Paul "neon" Gooch
P.S. - you should strive to keep the plasma inside glass :-)
--- End Message ---
