Andreas Borutta wrote:
>
> > but many times these things require knowledge of materials and tools in
> > order to produce the object.
>
> Exactly. So the natural first step (of course IMHO) is to teach basic
> knowledge.
> In a very impressive interview, I remember, a carver of puppets [1] in
> a "Volkshochschule" (adult education program) was asked which was the
> most important thing when beginning to learn carving. "Sharpening" she
> said.
She wasn't wrong. I just spent a couple of hours with a series of
chisel and plane blades through a 8000 grit water stone. Do you metric
guys use the same stone designates? An 8000 grit stone, like sandpaper
here, is how many particulates per square inch ie. 120 grit sandpaper is
120 grains of sand per square inch. I wonder who counts it.
>
> To be not misunderstood:
> It is obvious that an amateur has less time to spent in an occupation
> then a proffessional of course.
> So a point of view could be: less time means to be extraordinary
> carefully how to use this time.
> To exaggerate it:
> A Use the time to build many things with step by step instructions.
> B Use the time to learn and understand _some_ basic skills and build a
> few things which include some of your own ideas.
>
> I am far away from forming an ideology of this :-)
>
> I only postulate that B is more often (for myself ever) satisfactory
> than A on the long run.
If we can agree that 'own ideas' are probably derivative ideas, I will
agree. In fact, a very good local gallery (carries A Mattia, Somerson,
Castle, D Chihuly, etc.) just sold a desk that I put there 2 months ago-
now we have to make another for a commission (from 2 weeks ago), another
to replace the one in the gallery, and possibly another for someone
building a new house that was very interested. Impressed the gallery
director (he is making lots of money on it), but a nightmare to me
having to make repeats. Can not refuse though, he encouraged me to
charge twice as much (even considering a retail markup) than I would
have. There are some machines (CNC) I want. Still, as a solo worker
(my partner does all the surface design, I design the piece and make
it), I am in for a lot of repetitive work with no new problems to
solve. Almost building from plans though they are my own.
>
> > BTW, is there any such thing as a pure 'creativity' out there?
>
> No.
> Nothing is pure in the sense of being independent.
> I agree with you that we are "standing on shoulders" as you point out
> later.
>
> > Everything that we make has to follow some rules- a dining table has to
> > be a certain height to fit with a chair, needs to accomplish a certain
> > amount of seating, have a certain 'look' to fit into an environment. Is
> > this any more than following the do-it-yourself magazine article?
>
> :-) Depends on ... the quality of the magazine. In my experience the
> majority of do-it-yourself-articles are quite narrow in their view.
> Of course an article is not a textbook.
The problem is that most of the do-it-yourself projects here are usually
pretty poor design. There is a tv show here called New Yankee Workshop
that is a half hour how to build a piece of furniture. It usually
involves making a reproduction of some piece of furniture from the
past. The weird thing is, the maker (Norm Abrahms) always distorts the
proportions somewhat and comes up with with an object far less elegant
than the original.
>
> Well it is difficult to argue without concrete examples.
> At the end my arguments are highly subjective.
Mine are too. The nice thing about talking theory.
>
> > When you build a kayak, is there a truly creative approach to
> > speed/length, rocker/turning, etc.?
>
> I am not competent in boat design. And as long as I doesn't have a
> good basic knowledge in this shere my personal decision is not to
> begin such a project. Because for me it is not satisfactory enough
> just to follow instructions. The industrie or a proffessional will
> perform a much better result.
> May be the only reason to build such a project on my own is when there
> is definetly no chance to find this product on the market or to let it
> build is to expensive for me.
> Then it's plain work not a satisfactory work.
Even with the instructions however, we think of innovative ways to
complete the tasks using our own tools, space, and changes to the
original for our own peculiar functions. I wanted recessed hatches + a
day hatch in the stitch and glue I built- not on the instructions but
had to make do.
>
> > We question the notion of creativity in contemporary dialogue, as we see
> > most of what we do as a result of 'standing on the shoulders of giants',
>
> ACK
What does ACK mean?
>
> > even to those making things from the do it yourself xmas magazines.
>
> ACK. May be, to use an oxymoron, we call them small giants. :-)
>
> An other aspect is the strong "bondage to experts" in our time.
> In other words: "better listen to and trust on an expert than make
> your own experience". Even in things which are simple to reveal
> without a particle accelerator.
sometimes this is good in an instructional setting. We discover a lot
just by using the tools.
>
> > It was a
> > phenomenal lesson in working marine ply and bent wood lamination- some
> > of this ended up in my furniture.
>
> It is wonderful when you enjoyed it.
> So soon you will produce your own superslim bent ribs for your
> foldingboat? :-)
> Or a complete foldingboat frame bent and knoted forming a sculpture
> (just for your friends) showing what the elemental force of wild water
> may do with a frame kayak.
heheheh. Actually, I build my furniture using a torsion based
construction (like bridges) from aluminum. I am planning to incorporate
this into the construction of my folder. A good example of my premise,
Something used in other disciplines applied to the folding boat. Maybe
innovative, but not created from nothing.
>
> > Here in the schools they have eliminated the art and shop classes, the
> > only hand-eye things being chemistry lab work. A very sad state of
> > affairs.
>
> Art classes we have, shop classes we haven't either.
> Exception: Rudolf Steiner schools.
>
> > Germany historically has a great reputation of an apprenticeship
> > program, especially in precision work.
>
> I do not feel competent to compare it.
Most of the machinists of the industrial revolution through very recent
here in the US have been German.
>
> But I know the most inspiring texts to woodworking I ever read they
> all come from americans or, to be more precise, from people who are
> living in the USA.
> And for not a little while it was one of my dreams to get in an
> old-fashioned master/ student (or which word do you use in this
> context) relationship with one of them.
We use apprentice system here. I also wish I had those opportunities
here. I studied philosophy in college, became interested in making
things far later. Started by painting and Learned by buying tools and
doing. Took far longer than would have done with instruction. Still
don't know if I do things the most expedient way.
>
> Also extraordinary well made textbooks I found like e. g.
> Bruce Hoadley. Understanding wood.Taunton Press.
> Tage Frid. Tage Frid teaches woodworking. Taunton Press
This is another whose slides lie on my table for scanning. Danish you
know. CAme over to teach at RISD.
> Leonard Lee. The complete guide to sharpening. Taunton Press.
I just got the new Fine Woodworking magazine with big articles on Tage
Frid and James Krenov, Thought of you Andrea. You want me to send you a
copy? Will be going to the wood supply and will get you one if there
are some there.
>
> > I also wish I could write in German to respond as well as you all are
> > doing in English- I have great admiration for you'all.
>
> Thank you for your compliment.
> But I have great admiration for all of you who endure my English.
MOre than clear. Excellent expression of your thoughts.
Do you have any photos of your furniture? I would love to see them.
regards, gabriel
--
Gabriel L
Romeu
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