Hi, Russ,
Something Glen said suggests to me that my concerns about circularity are detracking this thread from its Higher Purpose. I have therefore started a new thread. Thanks for providing this definition. It really helps to mark my concern. I would argue that what you are offering here is an explanation of complex systems, and that this definition actually begs the question of what is a complex system. Yeah. I know. Where do I muster the arrogance to make such an assertion? Try this: Let it be the case that you define complex systems in the way you have, what is left to be explained about them? In other words, if this is what complex systems ARE, what are you still curious about? If you take seriously the definition of complex system I have given (or some other non-explanatory definition), then your definition here becomes a [heuristic] theory of complex systems. It answers the question, How did complex systems come about? What are the essential conditions for the occurrence of such systems. And we can precede to ask ourselves, as an empirical matter, how many of these features are actually necessary (or sufficient) for a complex system to arise. From my point of view, what complexity-folk always do is insist that discussants endorse a particularly explanatory metaphor BEFORE any question can be raised. That would be like insisting that discussants endorse the proposition that natural selection explains evolution before we get to ask the question, What is evolution and how did it come about? This is a great test. If I cannot convince you, and the others, to see any possible perils in the sort of definition you offer here, then you probably should just go back to “painting the floor” and leave me to rave in peace about the fact that there is no door in the corner you are so skillfully painting. Thanks for putting the matter so clearly. Clarity is an absolute necessity for progress. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2017 12:21 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems? I didn't define complex system. (Actually, this thread is so long I may have offered one. I don't remember.) I take a complex system to be a system (do we need to define that? Presumably some collection of interacting entities around which one can draw a boundary that distinguishes the collection from its environment.) that has the following characteristics/capabilities. * It can acquire and store free energy, e.g., as fat biologically or stress geologically. The free energy is acquired from outside the system. * It does that in multiple (more or less) independent ways, (E.g., lots of "agents.") * Those reservoirs of free energy can be released by triggers. (E.g., there are switches that open and close the flow of energy from these reservoirs.) * The released energy flows in some cases act as triggers, i.e., they flip switches, to release other energy flows. I think that's the core of it. (I haven't attempted to develop a complete definition. I'm not sure it's worth doing.) I would like an additional feature, although I'm unsure to what extent I would consider it necessary. * The system operates in part on the basis of symbols, i.e., information. (I'm not sure things other than biological systems and human artifacts do that, which is what probably prompted my question in the first place.) On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 9:05 AM Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net <mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > wrote: Russ, I seem to be missing some of the correspondence, and I apologize for that. Thanks for updating me. So, did you also, in your post, offer a definition of “complex system” that excludes hurricanes? I am, as you would predict, a little troubled by your locution, “that uses energy.” Seems somehow to suggest that the hurricane, as a system, exists in advance of the energy flows that make it happen. The “use” metaphor – I use a hammer to hit a nail – implies that both me and the hammer exist before the use takes place. If we use the hurricane as a metaphor for nail use, the nail and the hammer construct me to use them, or something like that. That formulation is weird, also, but sufficient to make my point. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> ] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2017 12:46 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems? Nick, When you suggested a hurricane as an example of a complex system I replied that a hurricane is interesting because it's a non-biological system (and not a human artifact) that uses energy that it extracts from outside itself to maintain its structure. That's an interesting and important characteristic. Biological systems do that also, Maturana & Varela, but I don't see that as sufficient to grant it the quality of being a complex system. -- Russ On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 9:06 PM Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net <mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > wrote: Thanks, Glen, Larding below: Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> ] On Behalf Of ?glen? Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 11:34 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems? Although you're repeating what I'd said earlier about relying on a more vernacular sense of "complex", we have to admit something you've yet to acknowledge. [NST==>I missed this, and going back through the thread, I have not found it. Can you reproduce it for me without too much strain? <==nst] (I realize that the things I've said in this thread have been mostly ignorable. So, it's reasonable that they've been missed.) First, circular reasoning is used all the time in math. [NST==>I am not talking about tautology, here: x is x. I am talking about circular explanation: x is the cause of x. Surely you would agree that having defined X as whatever is caused by Y, I have not added much to our store of knowledge concerning what sorts of things Y causes. But you are correct, not all circular explanations are entirely vicious/vacuous, of course. It depends on the assumptions the discussants bring to the table. See, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281410347_Comparative_psychology_and_the_recursive_structure_of_filter_explanations <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281410347_Comparative_psychology_and_the_recursive_structure_of_filter_explanations%3c==nst> <==nst] So, it is not the bug-a-boo logicians claim it to be. Again, Maturana & Varela, Rosen, Kaufmann, et al have all used it to valid and sound effect. [NST==>I would be grateful for a passage from any of these folks where strictly circular reasoning is used to good effect. <==nst] Second, your "interact more closely with one another than they do with entities outside the set" is nothing but _closure_. [NST==>Well, if that is how one defines closure, then I am bound to agree. Then, it’s not clear to me what the function of “nothing but” is, in your sentence. But reading through your earlier posts (petri dish) suggests that for you closure is absolute; for me, systematicity is a variable and we would have to have some sort of a mutual understanding of where along that dimension we start calling something a system. <==nst] Or if I can infer from the lack of response to my broaching the term, we could use "coherence" or some other word. [NST==>Yes, but coherence, for me, carries more richness than what I was grasping for. For you, perhaps not. I guess “coherence” is ok. <==nst] And that means that your working definition is not naive. [NST==>Huh? You mean I don’t get to be in charge of whether I am naïve, or not? Are you some kind of behaviorist? <==nst] It does rely on an intuition that many of us share. [NST==>Bollox! It relies on the plain meaning of the word (he said grumpily). <==nst] But in order for you to know what you're talking about, you have to apply a bit more formality to that concept. [NST==>This thread isn’t coherent for me. Somebody asks if natural systems can be complex. This is a lot of intricate talk which I frankly didn’t follow but which seemed to suggest that only symbol systems could be complex. But I could detect no definition of complexity to warrant that restriction. So I offered a definition of complexity (which may have been the same as yours – forgive me), offered an example of a natural complex system, a hurricane, and came to the conclusion that indeed, some natural systems are complex. To my knowledge, nobody has addressed that claim. But I have been traveling, my eye sight sucks, and I may have missed it. If anybody has addressed this claim, could somebody direct me to a copy of their post. I would be grateful. <==nst] Perhaps Steve Smith, who has often rescued me when I have made these messes in the past, could gently point out to me my error. Top temperature today 49 degrees. 90’s predicted for next week. I am ready. Best to you all, Nick On 06/06/2017 07:20 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Dear Eric and Steve, and the gang, > > > > When I first moved to Santa Fe on Sabbatical 12 years ago, I was merely 67, > and there was a chance, just a chance, that I might become expert enough in > complexity science and model programming to deal with you guys on a somewhat > equal footing. But that never happened, and, now, it is too late. I am > amazed by the intricacy of your discussion and the broad reach of your > thought. There is really little more than I can do then wish you all well, > and back out of the conversation with my head bowed and my hat clasped to my > chest. > > > > Before I leave this conversation, I would like to offer the dubious benefits > of what expertise I do have, which concerns the perils of circular reasoning. > I come by that expertise honestly, through years of struggling with the odd > paradox of evolutionary biology and psychology, that neither field seems > every to quite get on with the business of explaining the design of things. > When George Williams famously defined adaptation as whatever natural > selection produces he forever foreclosed to himself and his legions of > followers, the possibility of saying what sort of a world an adapted world > is, what the products of natural selection are like. One of you has pointed > out that this is an old hobby horse with me, and suggested, perhaps, that > it's time to drag the old nag to the glue factory. But I intend to give it > one last outing. > > > > So, I have a question for you all: Do you guys know what you are talking > about?! Now I DON’T mean that how it sounds. I don’t mean to question your > deep knowledge of the technology and theory of complexity. Hardly. What I > do mean to ask is if, perhaps, you may sometimes lose sight of the > phenomenon you are trying to explain, the mystery you hope to solve. Natural > selection theory became so sophisticated, well-developed and intricate that > its practitioners lost track of the phenomenon they were trying to account > for, the mystery they were trying to solve. We never developed a descriptive > mathematics of design to complement our elaborate explanatory mathematics of > natural selection. Until we have such a descriptive system, natural > selection theory is just a series of ad hoc inventions, not a theory subject > to falsification but “a metaphysical research program” as Popper once > famously said, which can always be rejiggered to be correct. Is there a > risk of an analogous problem in complexity science? You will have to say. > > > > So, I will ask the question again: Do you guys know what you are talking > about?! What is complexity?? If the answer you give is in terms of the > deeply technical, causal language of your field, there is a danger that you > have lost sight of what it is you are trying to account for. And here a > little bit of naivety could be very helpful. Naivety is all I have to offer, > I will offer it. Whatever complexity might be, it is the opposite of > simplicity, no? It is in that spirit that I propose a working definition of > complexity with which to explore this thread’s question: “Are any > non-biological systems complex?” > > > > An object is any collection or entity designated for the purposes of > conversation. > > > > A system is a set of objects that interact more closely with one another than > they do with entities outside the set. > > > > A system is complex if the objects that compose it are themselves systems. > > > > Only when complex systems have been clearly defined, is it rational to ask > the question, “Are any natural systems complex?” Now you may not like my > definition, but I think you will agree that once it is accepted, the answer > to the question is clearly, “Yes!” > > > > Take hurricanes. Is a hurricane composed of thunderstorms? > Clearly, Yes. Are thunderstorms themselves systems. This is a bit less > clear, because the boundaries among thunderstorms in a hurricane may be a bit > hazy, but if one thinks of a thunderstorm as a convective cell -- a column of > rising air and its related low level inflow and high level outflow – then a > thunderstorm is definitely a system, and a hurricanes are made up of them. > Hurricanes may also display an intermediate system-level, a spiral band, > which consists of a system of thunderstorms spiraling in toward the > hurricane’s center. Thus, a hurricane could easily be shown to be a > three-level complex system. > > > > Notice that this way preceding saves all the intricate explanatory apparatus > of complexity theory for the job of accounting for how hurricanes come about. > Now we can ask the question, What kinds of energy flows (insert correct > terminology, here) occur in all complex systems? Notice also, that this > procedure prevents any of us from importing his favorite explanation for > complex systems into their definition, guaranteeing the truth of the > explanation no matter what the facts might be, and rendering the theory > vacuous. . > > > > One last comment. When I wrote that perhaps we might inquire of the system > whether it is complex or not, I left myself wide open to be misunderstood. I > meant only to say, that it is the properties of the system, itself, not its > causes, that should determine the answer to the question. Remember that, in > all matters, I am a behaviorist. If I would distrust your answer concerning > whether you are hungry or not, I certainly would not trust a systems answer > concerning whether it is complex or not. -- ␦glen? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
