Interesting Ed,
 
I believe I read it before since much seemed familiar.   Well done.  
 
Are you aware of the works on the Iroquois by Francis Jennings?   His three volume series on the business trade of the Iroquois with the English, French, Dutch and  New Sweden is a set of books that the Iroquois don't like much but which are the best researched books on the business and political relationships that I have seen to date.  They have a Braudel type feel to them although much more specific.   
 
This shows very clearly the peer relationship that existed, until the English succeeded in getting rid of all of their European rivals including France.    This "peer" relationship shows that the Indian Nations were true nations and not wandering tribes as defined in the Canadian Constitution.     That the Iroquois Confederacy and the Cherokee Nation were as much a Nation-state with a different culture but a confederation that the American states still try to invoke in the term "State's Rights!"     No American was ever more Messianic than the Iroquois according to Jennings.    Ours was different but that is not the point.   Much of what Benjamin Franklin liked and incorporated in his discussions with the American Founding Fathers, is Iroquois in origin and ended up in the American Constitution.    They even have a form of dependent nation status in the Iroquois League including a "melting pot" where the nations they conquered became members of the Iroquois Confederacy.    I would think that you had run into that interesting little process during your travels amongst the Iroquois peoples.    They are terrific people and they do have a kind of "mission" that is wonderful to observe.
 
America seems to be moving towards the Canadian fiduciary model as they have removed the word Nation and replaced it with "Tribes" and have strengthened the propaganda term invented by Andrew Jackson's Secretary of War Lewis Cass who was the "Goebbals" figure for Jackson in his death marches of the Five Civilized Nations.     Cass aligned himself with the pseudo anthropologist Henry Rowe Schoolcraft (who founded the Museum of Natural History in New York City) invented the term "Hunter/Gatherer" and designated the urban Cherokees (with farms, trade, religion a written language, a Newspaper, three story Plantation Mansions as well as urban mansions still standing,  an elected  federal government and a constitution), as Hunter/Gatherers.  
 
Historically there is no way that the English can come out on the good end of this.   America is a kind of "Northern Ireland" where the British and Scot invaders succeeded in destroying all of the native Irish except for about 1/2 of 1% of the invading population.   Just imagine the Emerald Isle without the Ladies of Galway speaking "that tongue the strangers do not know" because all but 1/2 of 1% died as a result of the insurgence of the Brits and Scots into the North.    No more Irish Tenors.   Forget John McCormick, he never happened.   The best you could do was Peter Pears.   But they don't like Gays either so write off the songs except for the great singers of other country's songs.    In fact if the English had succeeded so well in Wales we could write off some of the greatest singers to ever walk the earth in favor of the.......Beatles bawdy songs and backroom ballads?     No Joyce, no Dylan Thomas, no Bryn Terfel.     
 
I consider GWBush's attitude towards "turning Iraq to Freedum" to be just another sprig off of that great Beast that considers themselves to be the Savior of the world and only those born of English culture to be the "real" people dedicated to "Freedum" .   The Italians feel the same way about Opera, of course,  while the Germans believe that no serious philosophy can be written or even thought in anything other than the German language and then there are the French.   I love them all but why do they have to be so genocidally chauvinistically provincial?   How can their religion,  Christianity, even raise its head and speak the term "righteousness" when confronting its own history?    
 
The "lame" excuse of claiming that the other people's of the world have "done the same" speaks nothing since these other groups don't claim a Messiah and a special place as a result of their "righteousness."    Except maybe the Iroquois.......(just kidding George).   
 
If you are going to be a "child of the King" then you had better at least have a "Princely" demeanor and understand that "Leadership" is often confused with authoritarian and brutish behaviour, as with our current White House "member."  
 
As the Roman Catholics say:   "You can't give forgiveness until the sin is confessed and forgiveness is asked for."  Maybe then we can speak of "righteousness."    Until then it is all jumping up and down, closing your eyes and waving your hands together to the music.   
 
REH 
 
PS. Ed, I don't mean to offend anyone but the concept of "manifest destiny" really sets me off.     It has nothing to do with how I feel about you or other folks on the list.   You guys are talking and that is good.    There are some old fashioned Christians and Jews on this list and my experience with them in the past was liberal in the sense of thoughtful and balanced.   The same is true of the English on the list and my own English connections which were important in my life.   We all have exceptions but then nothing changes because we can't make judgments.    I believe that this war is about our being too impotent to make judgments and Manifest Destiny and "White Only" communities are raising their evil heads again as a result.     The admonition not to confront is so strong in me that to do so almost means a declaration of war.   That doesn't help.   So I would appreciate discussion on these things and understanding that a cultural style that is wrong or genocidal can never be the core, and even more important, is never worth defending if you wish to survive as a viable people.    We all have something to share and leadership is a responsibility to exceptionalness and is always a place of service to the whole from the least to the greatest.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Weick
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Futurework] Manifest Destiny?

Interesting stuff, Ray.  When it comes to Native peoples, Canada's history is not quite as violent as that of the US, though it's bad enough.
 
A few years ago, Angela Slaughter, and young Micmac, and I wrote a piece on the history of white/Native relations in Canada.  If you're interested, take a look at:

Ed Weick
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Futurework] Manifest Destiny?

Ed and Harry
 
Harry asked?
> As oil is the lifeblood of the US - does it have a right to defend itself
> against interruptions in the supply?
Did the Irish Peasants have the right to raid the warehouses of the wealthy in order to feed their families?
 
What about the families and towns of India where people are starving when there is plenty of grain?
 
There is an interesting article in the NYTimes today called
"Catholics Debating: Back President or Pope on Iraq?"
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/06/national/06CHUR.html?th
 
In this situation the Pope is a kind of Central Government and these conservative Catholics have talked themselves into hating all Central Governments.   The issue of the rule of law is a problem to say the least.     I suspect the next answer will be to try to do away with tithing (as taxes).
 
In the past,   America's "Nazi" period was called "Manifest Destiny"   It furnished the "Final Solution" rational that Hitler was to use later on the people he didn't like or want either.     Consider the following article by the poet and intellectual Suzan Harjo for Indian Country Today newspaper:  

American Indians see media’s bias
Historically, press has been our critic, writes columnist
Suzan Shown Harjo
INDIAN COUNTRY TODAY
 
March 3 — Mainstream press had a bumper crop of anti-Indian articles last year. The Wall Street Journal seemed to be on a holy mission to portray Indian people and issues in a negative light.  So did myriad print and broadcast reporters and commentators in Connecticut and at least half of the shouting heads on cable television.  The capper for 2002 was TIME magazine’s coverage of Indian casinos in two December issues.
 
As a result of TIME’s articles, “members of Congress are calling for hearings” on gaming and federal recognition, Sen. Daniel K. Inouye, D-Hawaii, told delegates at a Feb. 24 Washington meeting of the National Congress of American Indians. Senate hearings will take place in the Committee on Indian Affairs, which Inouye has led in one of the two top positions since the 1980s and now serves as vice chairman. 
 
“The magazine articles pose a question: What is a tribe for the purposes of conducting gaming,” said Inouye. While “personally against gaming,” he said that Indian gaming monies “meet the long unmet needs of decades of broken promises. As long as those promises are not carried out, you’ll find me marching with you for gaming.” 
 
Inouye said Indian ancestors would say, “You’ve done well, you’ve stood tall…you’ve succeeded.” But success has come with a “whole legion of critics,” he said, counting TIME among them. “Don’t let the critics tell your story.”  
 
Historically, the American mainstream press has been our critic, missing and ignoring our story, or deliberately getting it wrong. 
 
Newspapers’ Role
Greed for Indian land, rather than Indian success, was the trigger for negative reporting in the 1800s and 1900s. Most newspaper families - such as the Hearst publishing empire that was built on Black Hills gold - owned the mines and railroads and were an integral part of westward expansion. True believers in the manifest destiny of whites to own the “new world,” they advocated and instigated violence against Indian people who stood in their way.
 
Newspapers were essential to the federal government’s 1880-1934 “civilization” campaign to eradicate Indian religions, languages and traditions, including ceremonial dancing. Most of the stories were written in what one federal circular promoted as a “careful propaganda” to “educate public opinion against the dance.” 
 
The Army and the Smithsonian in the late-1800s used newspapers to advertise for “collectors” to “harvest Indian crania” and “grave goods.” No papers reported on these activities, but occasionally they reported on Indian skulls of local interest. 
 
One in 1890 in the Rocky Mountain News appeared under these headlines: “A Bad Ute’s Skull/An Indian’s Brain Pan in a Denver Gun Store/Tab-we-ap Was a Redskin of the Worst Type/His Career of Deviltry Was Brought to an End by the Avenging Bullet of a White Man.” 
 
Newspapers of the day publicized bounty notices on current “uprisings.” A 1922 article in the Rocky Mountain News reported a $25 reward for those who defeated “efforts to sign the roads into the Navajo reservation ... The redskins are said to tear out or carry away all sign-boards.” 
 
The Rocky Mountain News had political and proprietary interests in the Colorado gold and in clearing the territory of Indians to get at it. The newspaper started a drumbeat against Cheyenne Dog Soldiers and other “hostiles” that culminated in the Sand Creek Massacre of a peace camp of Cheyenne elders, pregnant women and children on Nov. 29, 1864. 
 
The News celebrated the “Battle” of Sand Creek, lauding the Colorado Volunteers’ “Bloody Thirdsters” as having “covered themselves with glory.” By contrast, the U.S. Army officers on site reported it as the Sand Creek “Massacre” and described the soldiers as “barbaric” and “covered with gore.”  
 
The Chicago Tribune ran a 20-year retrospective on the Sand Creek “Battle” on Aug. 8, 1887, with subheads: “Wholesale Slaughter of Indians on the Plains, An Account of the Bloody Fight by Col. William M. Chivington, the Leader of the White Forces - About Eight Hundred Redskins Killed in the Engagement - Savage Atrocities Which Provoked the Fearful Retribution.”  
 
A Senate Special Committee on Indian Affairs investigated federal-Indian relations and reported in 1867 that white aggression was the cause of most armed confrontations with Indians. Most editorials dismissed the important report. Newspapers continued to demonize Indians and aggressive whites took more Indian land and murdered more Indian people. 
 
The Washita Massacre
Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer, on Nov. 27, 1868, invaded Cheyenne land that had been secured by treaty only one year before in what is now Oklahoma. He attacked Cheyenne Peace Chief Black Kettle’s camp along the Washita. Black Kettle and many of his people had barely escaped being killed at Sand Creek. Custer’s soldiers killed most of them and all the ponies, and raped the surviving women, girls and boys.
 
”The End of the Indian War and Ring” was the way The New York Times announced the Washita Massacre. Calling it “a fortunate stroke which ended his career and put the others to flight,” the Times editorialized: “The truth is, that Gen. Custer, in defeating and killing Black Kettle, put an end to one of the most troublesome and dangerous characters on the Plains.”  
 
The American press typically proclaimed massacres of Indians as battles and actual battles Indians won as massacres, wildly inflating the number of “redskins” and “hostiles.” 
 
The Battle of the Little Big Horn on June 25, 1876, was widely reported as the “Custer Massacre.” The Denver Post headlined one of its stories on Captain Benteen: “Major’s Men Were Lured into Ambush by Fleeing Redskins/Force of 5,000 Hostiles Surrounded Pursuing Troopers Who Galloped into Huge Village; Desperate Retreat Prevented Annihilation.”  
 
Reporters today, even after Congress apologized in 1990 for the Wounded Knee Massacre, continue to refer to it as the “Battle of Wounded Knee” and the “last battle of the Indian wars.” 
 
L. Frank Baum
L. Frank Baum wrote about Wounded Knee for The Aberdeen Saturday Pioneer, a paper he edited and drove into bankruptcy. Best known as a writer of children’s books and creator of the Wizard of Oz, he first penned editorials calling for genocide of Indians.
 
His anti-Indian writings in 1890-1891 were so virulent that organizers of a Baum conference in Aberdeen, S.D. a century later apologized “to the Lakota people for the part that our community and nation played in the killing of their relatives.” 
 
The Aberdeen planners said, “Baum and other editors in the area contributed to the climate of fear and hatred that led to the massacre at Wounded Knee on December 29, 1890.”  
 
Weeks before the Massacre, Hunkpapa Chief Sitting Bull and his half-brother, Chief Big Foot, were placed on the federal hit list of “fomenters of dissent,” ostensibly for violating the ban against dancing. Sitting Bull was killed on Dec. 15 by federal Indian Police who were arresting him. His people escaped to Big Foot’s camp and they all then fled to the Pine Ridge Sioux Reservation.  
 
At Wounded Knee, they were disarmed by the 7th Cavalry. As Big Foot was dying of pneumonia, he and most of his relatives were mowed down by Hotchkiss and Gatling guns.  
 
In one editorial, Baum built up the murdered Sitting Bull, in order to tear down the living Indian people as “a pack of whining curs who lick the hand that smites them.” Sitting Bull was, Baum wrote, “an Indian with a white man’s spirit of hatred and revenge for those who had wronged him and his. 
 
“The proud spirit of the original owners of these vast prairies inherited through centuries of fierce and bloody wars for their possession, lingered last in the bosom of Sitting Bull.” 
 
Baum’s white supremacist editorial continues: “The Whites, by law of conquest, by justice of civilization, are masters of the American continent, and the best safety of the frontier settlements will be secured by the total annihilation of the few remaining Indians. Why not annihilation? Their glory has fled, their spirit broken, their manhood effaced; better that they die than live the miserable wretches that they are.”  
 
Baum’s Jan. 3, 1891 editorial on Wounded Knee is another call for genocide: “The PIONEER has before  declared that our only safety depends upon the total extirmination (sic) of the Indians. 
 
“Having wronged them for centuries we had better, in order to protect our civilization, follow it up by one more wrong and wipe these untamed and untamable creatures from the face of the earth. In this lies safety for our settlers and the soldiers who are under incompetent commands.  
 
“Otherwise, we may expect future years to be as full of trouble with the redskins as those have been in the past.” 
 
Has mainstream coverage of Indians and Indian issues improved since those days? Of course it has. But far too much of it reflects Baum’s disdain masked by this century’s make-up. The only stories where the Baums of today can really be comfortable are those that ask, “How ‘bout them redskins?”  
 
As the good Senator from Hawaii says, “Tell your story, speak in one voice, take on your critics. You have one good weapon: truth. Truth is on your side.” 
 
Suzan Shown Harjo, Cheyenne and Hodulgee Muscogee, is president of the Morning Star Institute in Washington, D.C., and a columnist for Indian Country Today.
 

 
So Ed and Harry,
 
What I find appalling is that these old "Manifest Destiny" arguments are still being raised.   There is no excuse for cultural destruction.   There is no rationlization for genocide.    There is no place were the destruction of a million years of human evolution and cultural knowledge is efficient, economic or intellecually tenable.    If the West can't come up with a better rational for public action, then the West has not evolved and is still the Monster that it was when it arrived on these shores.    And that's my opinion.
 
Ray Evans Harrell
PS:  30 years ago the fraudulent Castaneda books opened the door to considering that Indians had a viable spiritual life.   The Freedom of Religion Act of 1978 opened that door further for scholars to prove the truth if not the specific of Castaneda's claims.   Recently the Scientists have been studying Indian languages and finding 21st century scientific breakthroughs in the ancient languages.    Forestry and Agricultural methods have also proven another area of advanced thinking from peoples who were considered a little above the animals in intelligence by the European.   Now the issue of whether there was Indian Law is being approached as well.  Here is a good use of that Casino money.    But the Universities will not like what they find for what it says about them, their history and their culture:

American Indian law is key to intellectual defense
 
Posted: February 10, 2003 - 9:00am EST
 
American Indian sovereignty is a way of being; it is a way of thinking; it is a political and intellectual structure of great meaning that deserves the most serious consideration, from its national ethnogenesis to its most studied cultural dimensions.
 
The thinking and conceptual framework of the traditional languages, cultures and governments of American Indians, as presently studied and discerned, are beginning to provide excellent perspectives. Theoretic and practical approaches, in the prism of the ancient teachings, about many disciplines and topics, including the study of humanity in the natural world, are increasingly being assessed based on pragmatic results.
 
Harvard University got the Indian prize last week, and deservedly so. The Oneida Nation in New York donated $3 million to endow the Harvard Law School with a professorship devoted to American Indian law. It did so to signal to the academic community, starting with the august Ivy League university in Cambridge, Mass., that tribal economic power intends to support the proper study and research on the richness of Native peoples’ histories and legal realities in the North America. Oneida Nation Representative Ray Halbritter, a Harvard graduate, steered the gift of the nation, to "help create a better understanding of the complex legal issues faced by all American Indians today and in the future."
 
The depth and range of experience found in American Indian cultures is only beginning to be understood and discerned. Many disciplines have overlapped studies of and about American Indian peoples, but a basis of studies that transcends specific disciplines is most desired, most useful and effective. We salute the signal sent by the Oneida Nation (parent corporate owner of this newspaper) in its endowment of an academic chair at Harvard University. Endowment is forever when it comes to offering a programmatic base. This Harvard deserves, after years of sustaining a number of creative Native initiatives. At a time when other universities are cutting back American Studies programs, Harvard is defining itself with its best efforts in law and business development.
 
The gift supports the establishment of a secure and quality-guaranteed position that will contribute to the long-term intellectual study and advancement of American Indian law. The fact that Native nations, which are doing well through self-determined business enterprises, are moving to directly support improved scholarship and education of Native legal, social and historical topics is of considerable common value as a model and strategy of tribal philanthropy. Ultimately, more and more scholarship and research needs to emerge from the Indian experience, from the cultural logic, from the Native intellectual bases. The idea of "the people," is one required principle. Respectful assessment of human interfaces with the natural world is another. Woman as the center of family and family as center of nation has great durability in the cultural thinking as well. There is of course much more.
 
The picture is this: Indian sovereignty as a base of legal reality for some 562 Native nations and communities in the United States, with its central argument of politically and culturally distinct bases within the American nation state, must be continually analyzed, understood and lived. Sovereignty, always a goal, is not always practiced at its desired level. The quest of Native nations to strive for self-sufficiency and for self-reliance is to persist in the world as peoples. This inspirational and innovative endeavor to endow a chair at an institution of higher learning, signaled by Oneida leadership, challenges wealthy tribes to also endow programs that will support teaching and research positions, in university and college programs at major institutions, including tribal colleges, throughout the country. We hope it starts a trend.
 
Well-to-do tribes are urged to consider the model. One of these endowments provided annually or as appropriate for the rest of the decade seems a great goal. By funding these types of endowed chairs, and by funding endowments for the tribal colleges and for policy think tanks, the line of defense on Indian rights can hold. The country needs to hear Native perspectives. Indian country needs to entertain new ideas and know how events and trends affect our home communities. Endowments for American Indian legal scholarship; for education and for research; for communication and expression of the American Indian standing; these are great and sustainable gifts to the generations.
 
This article can be found at
http://IndianCountry.com/?1044810992
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "futurework" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Futurework] Manifest Destiny?

>
>
> Ed,
>
> Very good post!
>
> Something I would like comment on - from everyone, if possible.
>
> Does a country have the right to take steps to handle a perceived danger in
> the future.
>
> As oil is the lifeblood of the US - does it have a right to defend itself
> against interruptions in the supply?
>
> Harry
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ed wrote:
>
> >Some of you may have read the Mother Jones article by Robert Dreyfus. I
> >posted the URL the other day. It suggests that what is going on, and has
> >gone on, in the Middle East is part of long-term strategy for global
> >dominance that Washington hawks have developed over the past few decades.
> >I've argued something like this in earlier postings, pointing out that
> >both the location and resources of the Middle East are enormously
> >strategic. The power that controls the Mid East may dominate the world
> >during the next few decades.
> >
> >Thus far I've tended to think of this need for dominance in terms of the
> >economy (energy) and power (keeping a lid on terror, etc.), but it also
> >has more idealistic origins. Since its beginnings as a nation, America, in
> >various ways, has been in a state of continuous expansion. During the
> >earlier parts of the 19th Century this expansion was mainly confined to
> >carving and filling out the continental United States. As settlers moved
> >westward from the original colonies, vast tracts of lands were taken from
> >the Indians, Louisiana was purchased from the French, and parts of the
> >southwest and far west were forcibly taken from Mexico. Expansionism
> >continued during the later part of the 19th Century and into the 20th with
> >the Spanish-American War and the building of the Panama Canal. It
> >continued throughout the 20th Century in Central America, Korea and
> >Vietnam. Where it was not militaristic in nature, it was economic. Often,
> >it was both.  However, by then it was no longer confined to the American
> >continent.  It had gone world wide.
> >
> >While this expansion was at times brutal and typically exploitative, it
> >had to be dressed up in the highest of ideals and principles. During much
> >of the 19th Century, it was part of the nation's "manifest destiny" -
> >something that simply had to happen because it represented a superior way
> >and quality of life. In the 20th Century it was about progress and keeping
> >the world safe for democracy. Currently, though it is most likely about
> >oil and dominance at a material level, it is given the idealistic clothing
> >of constructing global democracy.
> >
> >I heard a commentator on the radio this morning express concerns about
> >what America is doing and where it may be taking us.  One of the points he
> >made was that people dream their own dreams and cannot easily dream
> >someone else's.  Global democracy may be a fine concept for Americans but
> >may be difficult to export because others have different concepts of how
> >to govern themselves.  Authoritarianism at the top does not necessarily
> >preclude democratic institutions at the village or regional level, as was
> >demonstrated in Czarist Russia.  Nor does democracy at the top guarantee
> >democracy at the village level, as is illustrated by the re-emergence of
> >regional warlords in Afghanistan.  Democracy is almost certainly not a
> >one-size-fits-all phenomenon, and people have to have to decide how much
> >freedom versus authority is tolerable at all levels of society, and then
> >they have to figure out how to practically achieve the appropriate
> >balance.  And we may have to accept the possibility that some people will
> >take a very long time to figure it out.
> >
> >Intervention in the affairs of other nations should not be based on giving
> >them a particular model of democracy, but on giving them the means and
> >breathing space to figure out what model might best suit them.
> >
> >Ed Weick
>
>
>
> ******************************
> Harry Pollard
> Henry George School of LA
> Box 655
> Tujunga  CA  91042
>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: (818) 352-4141
> Fax: (818) 353-2242
> *******************************
>
>


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