Re: [lace] Re: Breaking and Twist to Thread

[Francis Busschaert]

hallo Susan,

yes and no
is the answer on your answer

i was probably not clear enough in this matter
YES you are correct if you do talk about handknitting and hand sewing
but i must realy say NO to the matter if we talk in terms of bobinlace

please make a difference between those techniques
first of all
the knittng is mostly done whit thicker threads here we have to take in 
account oa other way of looking towards twists
if you have a thick thread of say 1cm diameter (i take a virtual strong 
example) and you put a few twist per meter, you will fast have a 
deformation of the thread
also by knitting by hand you have strangely the effect of acumulating 
twist between the hand and the skein/cone/ball or whatever
this mostly applies for 1 ply threads
this is a proces we do not have in machine knitting
there again the twists do spread themselfs like i told for bobbinlace

for sewing you have that same problem indeed
and more even there is the same problem in handsewing as in machine sewing
way is that?
it all has to do whit tensioning the threads
how much tension is put on the threads
in the machine you have the thred which goes through all those differend 
thread guidance
and ther is a lot of tnesion on the threads
so it is more easy for the twists to accumulate adn not slipping over 
the guidance
there for if you use not leveled sewingthreads but lets say knitting 
threads or weaving threads to sew
you will have problems like snapping hreads on one pount or an other
this due to the acumulation or decumulation of the twists
the easyes way of having to deal whit it is rethreading the sewing 
machine each 10meters of used thread
a real hassle but on option
now on the handsewing you will have the same problem
and mostly because the extratension/stress you put on the thread by 
pulling it through the tissue
it seems to gluide for most people but in reality the thread if pulled 
on a quite strong tension and will do the same effect as accumulate or 
decumulate twist just before the ingoing of the tissue
again this should only be haapenign whit nonlevveled threads
if you use ballenced threads, they should not do it


now the bobbin lace
it is blabla, it realy is
i lack the courage and words in written english
to express myself fully
but look towards it closly
the movement after it is done by youself  AFTERWARDS
i did not go into depth of the S or Z twist and how yo put it on the bobbin
tha tis on other story
i only mentioned that the number of twists added on a bobbin
is neglectable for the work
peanuts you cal it i beleeve

so if you put a spool in a way that you derool it by puting it 
horizontal towards the bobin so it unwinds as the threadcone unrolls aswell
or if yo just rool the thread from the coen from its vertical possition 
and so "add or deminish" twists it is of no concequense
again look to the thickness of threads you use in bobbinlace
mostly fine to extreme fine from 300 to 1800 twists per meter in the 
extrafien threads
adn if you do the math you will see that the number of added twists is 
"peanuts"
even if you take very small threadcones were the diameter is 0.5cm it 
still is peanuts

anf the problemof adding afterwards on the pillow has notthing to do 
whit the way you put it on the bobin
(taken out of sight the S or Z way to put threads on the bobin, that is 
an other discusion)
ask around to teachers
they will tell you
soem always have problems other never have
if you work in those spangels you do not turn atall so the should not 
have that problem
it only occurs whit us european bobins whom can turn around if 
manipulates to fast and to nonchalant

i wil try to make some diagrams and try to put them on the internet to 
show you
what i mean
as useal english seems far more diffuclt to fully express my thoughs  
then it should be

francis

extremly happy that atleast the lovley Susan reacts to this
please if you also have thuoghts on this matter .....
let them come




Susan Reishus schreef:
With all due respect, I have to disagree, Francis, as not only is thread wound
on a bobbin, but it has movement after that, whether in working stitches in
bobbin lace, how people turn the bobbins as they work (even if a small amount,
it accrues), and other "dangling," etc.

Though I am not an expert in bobbin lace, I have worked with textiles, fwiw,
for decades.  Sewing thread for hand sewing twists just with simple running
stitches, and is compliant and stronger, when allowed to "unfurl."  (Often
thread cut from the spool, and threaded with the last from the spool, handles
better, going along with the twist, than threading a needle from the first cut
end).  

Even when knitting lace or a plain sock, one must continually allow the yarn
(or object), to unwind.  Not done, this put bias on objects so they tend not
to lay "on grain" which adds stress, but especially, as untwisting too much
will weaken (not often a problem in hand knitting, rather over twisting is)
the yarn and will break or wear soon.

It isn't as obvious with thread, as it often has tighter twist but more
importantly, it is happening on a more "micro" way than say yarn, (in a more
obvious "macro" way.)  
As with a cake recipe, you provide the components, and scientific physics
principles for something that will rise, have texture, etc., as desired, but
this doesn't factor in the human component, which results in occasional
failures.  I believe the practical vs. theoretical applications apply here.

If the thread was free, and not imposed upon by the bobbin, these
characteristics and problems would be more obvious, and sooner, but thus tend
to show up once the thread is in application, and sadly so.  

Perhaps there are spinners on this list that can supply more perspective.
 From what little spinning I have done, better helps me understand yarn and
thread; the observations and conclusions I had come to long ago, but of which,
keep evolving.

  

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