Subject: Re: dangers of industrial animal
production
>
>
>
>
> > >
> > > gv: all of that addresses the field of the known in which
egos
> > > > > > are thought to exist in time. From that
belief there is action
> > > > > > according to self
interest. I have my property, my job, my
> > > > > > family
and I act to protect my vested interests. You appeal
> > > > >
> to my reason and argue that protection of the environment is
> >
> > > > in our collective interest and we need to organize our
activities
> > > > > > so the needs of the group are best
met. That is what the lawyer
> > > > > > in us would
do...through logic devise a system to bring order to
> > > > >
> social chaos. But that order is superimposed. It doesn't change
>
> > > > > anything human at the root because as long as we
experience
> > > > > > ourselves as separate in time we are
divided and in conflict.
> > > >
> > > >
>
> > > > > rob: just a minute. i am *not* appealing to your
reason.
> > > > > > i am asking you to look at the
problem. of course in
> > > > > > using words and
conversing with each other self-images
> > > > > > and
images are involved. but i am not trying to convince
> > > > >
> you of any argument or conclusion. i only am saying:
> >
> > > > "here is a human problem, please
look at this"
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > gv: the problem of conflict of interest in human affairs has
>
> > > > been looked at analytically from every angle,
multi-layered
> > > > > bureaucracies formulated and detailed
regulations of all
> > > > > manner of social, political and
economic activity promulgated.
> > > > > And we keep reforming
the rules and institutions. Is that your
> > > > >
interest, to discuss the need for social reformation?
> > >
>
> > > >
> > > > rob: i am more concerned with
the quality of the looking
> > > > than with the quantity.
and my interest in that article
> > > > stemmed from my own
experience in this matter.
> > > >
> > > > many do
not realize the conditions in which animals live
> > > > and are
slaughtered under in order to fill the grocery store
> > > >
shelves and many of our stomachs. many are not
> > > >
aware of the hormones which are used, the antibiotics --
> > > >
all which have important side-effects which are not fully
> > > >
understood. when we eat meat from the grocer's shelves,
> > >
> we are ingesting these things too.
> > > >
> > >
> many are not aware of how much fresh water
> > > > is
consumed by animals mass produced by man for food.
> > > > it
takes seven pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef.
> > >
>
> > > > many are not aware how much waste these
animals
> > > > create dailyb through defecation. it is a
real problem,
> > > > largely ignored.
> > >
>
> > > > these animals live in conditions in which they
cannot
> > > > move. and corporate farming has taken over
the
> > > > market. family farms are largely a thing of the
past.
> > > >
> > > > many are not aware that it
is possible to buy the meat
> > > > of animals raised without the
use of hormones or anti-biotics,
> > > > animals which were
allowed to roam relatively free.
> > > >
> > > > i
am interested in people understanding what is happening.
> > > >
*how* that understanding responds to the problem -- how it
> > >
> does or does not involve government -- is not my main concern.
>
>
> >
> > > gv: the mere knowledge that processed meat
is not the most economical
> > > or healthy food to eat is not going
to change well-entrenched cultural
> > > tastes and habits. As there
are many carnivorous animals, species eating
> > > species is hardly
unnatural. Smoking cigarettes and over-indulging in
> > > alcohol
are more wasteful and pose a greater and more immediate health
> > >
risk yet many still smoke and drink. Besides, getting caught up in
>
issues
> > > or causes distracts from the real problem which is
human consciousness.
> >
> >
> > rob: alcohol and
cigarettes represent a greater and
> > more immediate health risk to
the individual user,
> > but industrial animal production represents
a
> > danger to all human beings. i am not talking about
>
> meat eating in general. i am talking about buying meat
> >
which is produced in these factory farms. and as most
> > people are
ignorant of the issues involved and the
> > availability of organic
meat which is produced
> > in a way which affords the affected animals
a higher
> > quality of life and which does not involve
anti-biotics
> > and growth hormones.
>
> > this
problem, it seems to me, reflects the fact that we as
> > the public
too easily accept what is marketed to us as safe,
> > and we fail to
look into the very misguided and non-sustainable
> > ways in which we
are inter-acting with this earth.
> >
> > are you saying that
we should ignore these problems and
> > just meditate?
:-))
>
>
> gv: the world of cause and effect is too much
with us. People are
> concerned about their needs first and everything
else is secondary.
>
>
> rob: when people see that their
needs are tied into
> global needs, they respond accordingly. polls
show
> for example that abouyt 80% of Americans are willing
> to pay
higher costs for environmentally responsible energy
> than for forms which
are more environmentally destructive.
>
>
> gv: To motivate
people to change, you show them how change
> is in their best interest as
it will bring security, comfort or pleasure.
> A goal-oriented approach
that is geared toward idealistic or altruistic
> ends doesn't work as it
is at odds with human nature. Meditation as
> we use the term here is not
linear or utilitarian in the sense of trying
> to bring about a result.
There is psychologically no tomorrow, no
> collective world of man to
save. There is only this moment.
>
>
> rob: yes, i was using
meditation in the contrived sense of
> being a dualisticly employed method
as a joke -- as a foil
> for embracing a failure to act.
[:-)]
gv: if
we compiled a list of pressing issues to be
addressed,
it could be a mile
long... animal rights, woman's rights,
a
multitude of
environmental concerns, equal
opportunity
for this group
or that, political freedom on my little
island,
the right to bear arms or the need to get guns off the street,
free speech,
anti-defamation, tax the rich and feed the
poor,
get out and vote,
stop one of a hundred of dread diseases,
reform every human institution to end the terrible
waste
and
injustice blah
blah
blah...As we 'should'
give attention to the
problem
of human consciousness at every
level, we
better
get busy. We
can start by embracing our pet
peeves. ;-)