rob: you may categorize what i wrote as
"basic K," but it is
very much rooted in my own experiences and not merely a
matter of ideas.
Som: OK.
rob: if one wants an excuse for being
complacent one needn't
necessarily turn to K. one can simply read one's own
self-serving
preconceptions into whatever it is. and i think that is
something
we all too commonly do.
Som: OK, although for K-readers it is more romantic to not strive
because..
[all the reasons that the dead man inadvertently provided].
rob: there is the excellence which flows
effortlessly when there is
an order within which is expressed outwardly. and there is also
contrived excellence.
Som: Can you give any concrete examples here? Thanks.
K would often emphasize that
effortlessness
is not a matter of passivity. but to learn what it is that is
really
the expression of who you are, one must be willing to fail at what
society conditions us to regard as 'success'
and the expression of who one is may entail completely failing
by society's standards -- or it may not. there is nothing set
in
stone here, no "5 step program" to effortless intelligent
living.
Som: This kind of thinking is what I precisely object to. Krishnamurti
never
ever decried success -- his argument was against the precedence and
antecedent
of success.... the process [of becoming ruthless on the way to success]
and the
outcome [bloating of the ego upon achieving success]. Success per se,
when not tainted
by ego [and it need not be] is a matter of excellence -- doing one's very
best.
Before joining Rishi Valley, I was a successful banker. Achyut Patwardhan
had arranged
a meeting for me [and my then wife] with K. He asked me what I did for a
living. I told him about my
job, the biggest Indian bank [and the bank that was growing the fastest
world-wide] that I
worked for and he listened intently and remarked positively
("wow") and asked me many
questions about the bank. A few months later at lunch at Rishi Valley
Radhika told him about the
accomplishments of my ex-wife (she had a doctorate in nuclear
Physics from one of the
top Indian institutes). His remarks were, again, of admiration and
positive.
I have narrated the above two experiences not in an egoistic sense, but
to make a point.
All his life, Kishnamurti interacted with a lot of people, some of them
the very best in their
field. K schools and Foundations have many people who achieved, or had
the potential to
achieve, a lot of success.
Krishnamurti appreciated people's giving their best and striving for the
best.
It was the ego and ruthlessness involved in becoming successful that he
objected to.
People often overlook this point and equate Krishnamurti's teachings with
those of indolence
and complacency.
rob: what do you mean by that word
"strive" -- are you thinking of
friction -- which is in a sense a loss of energy?
Som: Strive -- to keep pushing, not giving up, giving one's best shot
--
even at the risk of sending you on a wild goose chase with the word
"Will" in it,
allow me to quote from Kipling (poem IF
http://www.ashernet.com/humor/if.htm):
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
That is what striving is... not giving up against any circumstance.
rob: :-)) there is a lot to be
said for keeping things ordered and for
approaching life with passion.
Som: Do you follow your own advice?
but where do you see those not
succumbing to a lazy life reading K under a pepper tree to be
getting?
Som: Well, those who pursue success in an egoistic sense get burnt
out
sooner or later. Those who pursue it as pure excellence, lead a full
life.
rob: if i understand what you are saying then
-- sure, that is true.
but one's interest in excellence may demand that one fail in
endeavors which are seen to be counterproductive. and it may also
entail being inactive until intelligence informs one's direction.
n'est pas?
Som: True excellence resides in striving, in the journey, and not in the
destination;
it is a process, not a product:
"If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;"