What 'Grows' the Universe?

[greg vantongeren]

gv: There is only a dream when there is a dreamer. There is only a dreamer when there is a dream. They are one though they may seem to be separate. The observer is the observed, they each ‘exist’ but only in relationship. They are perceived as unitary by an attention that is free of the subject/object split. That is, this attention has a certain independence or freedom of observation that is not operating when the view is from an isolated centre. To understand the nature of this attention, it has to be actually operating or there has to have been at least moments of attention. rich: Where you say ‘there is only a dream when there is a dreamer’ you have my full concurrence (the conclusion ‘there is only a dreamer when there is a dream’ is but a reversed tautology or an abstract deduction signifying nothing of substance) … but where you go on to relate a metaphysical experience (‘the observer is the observed’) is where you and I diverge. Where the dreamer is extinct … all the remainder which you write of does not occur, happen or exist in any way, shape or manner whatsoever. What is, then, is peace on earth, in this lifetime, as this flesh and blood body only. gv: to experience oneself as flesh and blood body existing apart from its environment in time is a description that we learn. If one is just a flesh and blood body that begins at birth and ends at death there is no peace because you as flesh and blood body are always at risk of harm and destruction. You say that it is the universe that is experiencing a particular body. As that which is experiencing is aware or attends and is not bounded by anything or limited to a particular form or pattern, why say there is only the flesh and blood body? A perception/description of form as flesh and blood body is one-sided. What is formed is shaped with the unformed. They are energetically one and the same.