rob johnston
Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:39:06 -0700
> rob: you may categorize what i wrote as "basic K," but it is
very much rooted in my own experiences and not merely a
matter of ideas.
Som: OK.
> rob: if one wants an excuse for being complacent one needn't
necessarily turn to K. one can simply read one's own self-serving
preconceptions into whatever it is. and i think that is something
we all too commonly do.
Som: OK, although for K-readers it is more romantic to not strive because..
[all the reasons that the dead man inadvertently provided].
rob: you are a K-reader. do you not see how self-serving your
assumptive over-generalizations are?
> rob: there is the excellence which flows effortlessly when there is
an order within which is expressed outwardly. and there is also
contrived excellence.
Som: Can you give any concrete examples here? Thanks.
rob: Michael Jordan, Segovia, Django Reinhardt, the hawk
soaring overhead, the cook creating dinner (or the dish washer
who turns work into play ;-). as for contrived excellence -- there
are so many examples. the musician who plays mechanicly --
perhaps being very technically excellent, but not conveying the
feel and heart which perfumes the artists play of the very same
musical piece.
> rob: K would often emphasize that effortlessness
is not a matter of passivity. but to learn what it is that is really
the expression of who you are, one must be willing to fail at what
society conditions us to regard as 'success'
and the expression of who one is may entail completely failing
by society's standards -- or it may not. there is nothing set in
stone here, no "5 step program" to effortless intelligent living.
Som: This kind of thinking is what I precisely object to. Krishnamurti never
ever decried success -- his argument was against the precedence and
antecedent of success.... the process [of becoming ruthless on the way
to success] and the outcome [bloating of the ego upon achieving success].
rob: why the outcry over the acceptance of failure as part
of the process of learning?
Som: Success per se, when not tainted by ego [and it need not be] is a
matter
of excellence -- doing one's very best.
Before joining Rishi Valley, I was a successful banker. Achyut Patwardhan
had
arranged a meeting for me [and my then wife] with K. He asked me what I did
for a living. I told him about my job, the biggest Indian bank [and the bank
that
was growing the fastest world-wide] that I worked for and he listened
intently and
remarked positively ("wow") and asked me many questions about the bank.
A few months later at lunch at Rishi Valley Radhika told him about the
accomplishments of my ex-wife (she had a doctorate in nuclear Physics from
one of the top Indian institutes). His remarks were, again, of admiration
and
positive.
rob: wonderful. what precisely did he say?
[Som:] I have narrated the above two experiences not in an egoistic sense,
but to
make a point.
All his life, Kishnamurti interacted with a lot of people, some of them the
very best
in their field. K schools and Foundations have many people who achieved, or
had
the potential to achieve, a lot of success.
Krishnamurti appreciated people's giving their best and striving for the
best.
It was the ego and ruthlessness involved in becoming successful that he
objected
to.
People often overlook this point and equate Krishnamurti's teachings with
those of
indolence and complacency.
rob: perhaps they do. i cannot think of anyone thought that would
say that embracing indolence and complacencly is the outcome
f being informed by intelligence.
if you are successful and truly happy as a banker, then why leave?
and why are you presently teaching and not working in the banking
business? (i am not concerned with you explaining to me -- i am
just asking).
my problem with the conditioned drive to succeed is that it is
narrow, divisive, and it tends to be based on the idea of a false
separation between oneself and others; between oneself and
the world.
in my own experience positions in engineering and healthcare,
i have found that the underlying assumptions on which our
professional institutions are based produce a climate which
reward and foster personal greed and dishonesty and
psychological aggressiveness which is euphemistically considered
cleverness, or business savvy.
rob: what do you mean by that word "strive" -- are you thinking of
friction -- which is in a sense a loss of energy?
Som: Strive -- to keep pushing, not giving up, giving one's best shot --
even at the risk of sending you on a wild goose chase with the word "Will"
in it,
allow me to quote from Kipling (poem IF
http://www.ashernet.com/humor/if.htm):
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
That is what striving is... not giving up against any circumstance.
> rob: :-)) there is a lot to be said for keeping things ordered and for
approaching life with passion.
Som: Do you follow your own advice?
rob: not as a rule.
> rob: but where do you see those not succumbing to a lazy life reading K
under a pepper tree to be getting?
Som: Well, those who pursue success in an egoistic sense get burnt out
sooner or later. Those who pursue it as pure excellence, lead a full life.
rob: *are* they pursuing success, or are you employing a liberal use
of that word?
>rob: if i understand what you are saying then -- sure, that is true.
but one's interest in excellence may demand that one fail in
endeavors which are seen to be counterproductive. and it may also
entail being inactive until intelligence informs one's direction.
n'est pas?
Som: True excellence resides in striving, in the journey, and not in the
destination; it is a process, not a product:
rob: you seem to be making a contrived effort to ruffle the feathers
of murtis by your choice of words. you're very naughty Somendra! :-))
- - - -
"If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;"
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