Re: still searching

[Clarence Morris]

Thank you so much Peter. It helps to understand these things. Sometimes not
understanding
terms and meanings can give a person a block. It is really hard when you are
from another country and
trying to research persons  who lived in the mother country. Thats why I find
this and other websites so
helpful and there are so many people that help without a cost.
Thank you again.
sharon (Canada)

Peter Delaney wrote:

> Firstly, here follows my notes as to what a City Livery Company was, which I
> had prepared a few days back. The oldest were formed many years ago, (the
> Mercers Company had a Charter dated 1394), but some newer ones are quite
> young - the Actuaries Company, for example was formed in 1979. Originally
> they were all in the nature of a trade guild - existing to protect the
> rights of the craftsmen and to monitor their standards. The Actuaries
> Company, again by wa of example, has its membership limited to those who are
> either Fellows of Associates of the Institute of Actuaries (their
> professional body) or other people who are 'approved and appropriately
> qualified actuaries'.In the case of some trades, the Livery Company still
> administers the checks on the craft - most notably the Goldsmiths. The
> 'Hallmark' affixed to an object made of gold derives from the fact that it
> was (and is) applied at the Goldsmith's Hall. Some Livery Companies have
> widened their membership to people of related trades (some members of the
> Goldsmiths Company are bankers, but the first bankers dealt in gold, whilst
> the Salters Company now includes many involved in the chemical industry, not
> just salt.) Other Livery Companies, where the trade no londer is practised,
> or in very small numbers, have effectively severed the connection with the
> craft.
>
> Each Livery Company was governed by a Court and headed by the Master
> (elected annually, usually) and run by Wardens , with the basic membership
> being a Freeman. The entry of new members to the craft was by the system of
> Apprenticeship. It used to be that before being able to become a Freeman of
> the City of London, a person had first to be a Freeman a Livery Company -
> hence the Lord Mayor would have always been a member of a Livery Company.
>
> Now-a-days (apart from those which continue to control the particular craft
> guild), most of the activities of the Livery Companies are directed to
> charitable works (and social gatherings as a means of fund raising). In many
> ways this is what they always did. Several of the old Livery Companies, for
> example, set up schools - the Coopers had one in Stepney, whilst those
> founded by the Haberdashers and Mercers still exist. But, in addition to
> looking after the  rights of the craft trades people to practice their
> trade, the Livery Companies also acted like a 'benefit society' - the
> members paid into the guild's funds, so that those members who were ill,
> disabled or elderly could be supported. It was from this basic charitable
> purpose that later, wider, charitable interests arose. In many cases, the
> charitable work is related to the trade guild - as for example the Salters
> Company, who support the teaching of chemistry in schools and universities.
>
> Each Livery Company had its own livery colours. This may sound like a
> uniform, but they were more like robes worn over 'normal clothing'. The
> nearest commonly seen equivalent is probably a robe such as a town mayor
> wears, but each Livery Company - as I said - had its own colours, rather in
> the way that the hood of a university graduate is of different colour and
> style depending on which university and type of degree they hold.
>
> The records of most, but not all, of the London Livery Companies are kept in
> the Manuscript Section of the Guildhall Library (the derivation of its name
> should now be obvious), and ythat is what the website referred to lists - so
> the original enquirer, by visiting the Library could search those documents,
> if they wish, to find out if their ancestor was a member of the particular
> company, when he was apprenticed, and to whom, if he ever served as Warden
> or Master, and so on. In early years he would almost certainly have so done,
> in recent times the membership, as indicated above, is less closely tied to
> the craft in many cases.
>
> In the particular case of the Haberdashers, originally part of the Mercers
> Company. The earliest mention is in 1371, and the first charterto the
> Haberdashers (in effect, when they began as a separate body) was in 1448.
> The livery colours are white and blue, and a
> history of the Company (A Short Description of The Worshipful Company of
> Haberdashers  by H Prevett)
> was published privately in 1971. Records surviving at the Guilhall Library
> run from
> the 1520s to the late 20th century - the Apprentice Records are the longest
> run,
> but do not appear to start early enough for the person of interest to you.
> You can see a list of what the Guildhall Library holds at their web page
> http://www.ihrinfo.ac.uk/gh/hab.htm   That is direct to the haberdashers
> list - you can 'come back' from there for more general information.
>
> It is a pity that, from your point of view, the earlier apprentice books do
> not survive, as they will sometimes give details of the place and date of
> birth - even name a parent who paid the apprentice fee, and also say to whom
> the man was apprenticed (sorry, but there were only males in the livery
> companies at that period !!).
>
> The reason that you cannot otherwise find details of the birth are that
> churches only were required to record baptisms, marriages and burials (NB,
> this is not quite the same as births marriages and deaths), from 1538. A
> *very* few churches had kept some kind of record before then, but it was
> King Henry VIII who decreed (following the dissolusion of the monasteries)
> that churches record this information. Most were originally kept on loose
> sheets, and early in the next century it was laid down that the records be
> put into books. Most, but not all, copied the earlier sheets into the books
> (which is why they appear in the same handwriting for a long initial
> period). For someone to have been an Alderman in 1524, he will have been
> born well before the chuirch records began - likely in the later 1400s.
> Guildhall Library (I see you have their postal address anyway) will hold
> such records as there are. I think that, simply, the reason "why is it so
> hard to find any records of his birth and life and that of his family" is
> that it was a *very* long time ago, less records were kept then, and even
> less survive !!. The only suggestion I can offer is that some of the
> contemporary papers of the Haberdashers Company *might* mention some extra
> fact about John (De)Hardy, or the Corporation Of London Record Office may be
> able to add something , as he served as an Alderman (twice), Sherriff and
> Auditor.
>
> Sorry that this does not give you a more positive lead, but hope it gives
> you an insight to the way the records were compiled..
>
> Peter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Clarence Morris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Peter Delaney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 9:47 PM
> Subject: Re: still searching
>
> > Peter.
> > You are right I sent out to little information. A gentleman named Peter
> > Haizelden who is /was researching the Mayors and Lord Mayors of London
> 1189- to
> > present day stated in his legal research (with kindness sent me this)
> > "there has never been a Mayor or Lord mayor of London by the name of
> either
> > DeHardy or Hardy. The term "Lord" mayor did not evolve into general use
> until
> > the mid-1540. But that it is recorded; John Hardy-Citizen and haberdasher
> > (Master 1528-29) was Alderman of Aldersgate 1524-28 and Farringdon within
> > 1528-35, Sheriff of London 1527-28 , Auditor 1531-33. "
> > this information was also confirmed by the Guildhall, Library, Manuscripts
> > section,Aldermanbury, London
> > Now I am not up on the meanings of these positions but I am assuming that
> they
> > must have been important positions
> > for one man to hold. So did that mean he was a man of means or knowledge.
> > I am also wondering if this man held these positions why is it so hard to
> find
> > any records of his birth and life and that of his
> > family.
> > Correct me please?
> > Sharon (Canada)




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