Martyn Hodgson
Mon, 09 Jun 2008 01:49:28 -0700
Response inserted in text below MH > --- On Sun, 8/6/08, Anthony Hind > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed > 12c/loaded/Demi-filé > > To: "Jarosław Lipski" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Martyn Hodgson" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net" > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Date: Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 3:09 PM > > Jaroslaw and Martyn > > I believe the difference in calculation comes from > Martyn > > using a > > stiffish high twist (rather than a rope). This can > possibly > > be pushed > > through quite a narrow hole, where a flexible rope > would > > not go through. > > Mimmo is taking the calculation for a rope diameter as > > being 80% of > > the size of the hole, as Segerman seems to have said. > > Perhaps, > > Segerman's ropes at that time were unsmoothed, > perhaps > > not. > > Then, we know that ropes have a higher degree of > flexibity > > than stiff > > gut. Thus when you raise the rope up to tension, it > will > > become > > thinner than its original size. So it will be thinner > than > > 80%, > > perhaps around 70% to 75% (if it began at 80% of the > size > > of the lute > > hole). > > > > Now, this would be what would happen, with the type of > > stringing that > > Satoh uses (Pistoys). However, Martyn seems to be > using a > > stiff gut > > high twist of 1,4 that he thinks will go through a > hole of > > 1,5mm. > > Have you actually tried that Martyn? Yes, I've explained previously how hole sizes are often measured (eg by inserting known diameters -often a drill bit), so a hole measuring 1.5mm by this method is certainly at least 1.5 and will indeed take a 1.4mm string (if uniform diameter and stiffish) - the trick is to also rotate when putting in - so that it's not the higher static coefficient of friction which is acting. > > Now according to > > Charles > > Besnainou, inharmonicity is caused by the stiffness of > the > > string at > > the bridge and the nut. I simplify, but the sound > waves > > encounter the > > greater stiffness at the nut and bridge end, and some > wave > > forms are > > returned out of phase, and these partially cancel the > > initiating wave > > form (particularly the high frequencies) givin > > inharmonicity. > > > > If the high twist and the rope are at normal high > tension, > > the result > > will be far worse for the hightwist, as it will be > stiffer. > > However, > > perhaps you can lower the tension more on a high > twist, > > before it > > loses its ability to vibrate. > > As you lower the tension, so the stiffness will > presumably > > decrease > > at the nut and the bridge. Perhaps at a very low > tension > > this means > > that the hightwist is not so inharmonic as it was > > previously. Indeed, the inharmonicity is less (as Segerman in fact demonstrated many years ago) MH > > > > > This sort of thing can be measured. I will ask Charles > > whether he has > > done comparative studies of such strings at lower > tensions. > > > > Martyn, what is the sound like of your high twist at > 1,5Kg? > > Does it > > sound good. Could you make a recording for us? Have > you > > actually > > tried using a 1,4 string with a 1,5 hole? I think you mistake my position if you think I'm uncritically advocating this sort of stringing, I merely wish to draw attention to it as an option to loaded and which can perhaps too easily be overlooked (some others have also made the same point). I have, however, strung a trial lute this way (a 9 course at 64cm in the old tuning C D F G c f a d g with the 9th down to C at A415). I'm not wholly satisfied with the result but this may well be because I devote insufficient continuous time to developing the necessary low tension technique (v close to bridge etc) since I use more 'normal' tensions for concert (ie mostly continuo) work. In fact my subjective preference continues to lean towards loaded basses but, as said, I think it important that we try to explore all reasonable avenues. MH PS I have no recording facilities! > > More importantly, even if this CAN be done, is it > > comfortable? Is it > > hard to push the string through (even if it is > possible)? > > Would you > > want to do that each time you put a string on your > lute? > > If this is not the case why did they not make slightly > > larger holes? > > > > Have I in any way twisted your hypothesis. I tried to > state > > what I > > understand, and the possible consequences. Please let > us > > know your > > thoughts. > > Anthony > > > > > > Le 8 juin 08 à 15:35, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : > > > > > > > > Hi Martyn, > > > I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the > tension > > of 0.9 till > > > 1.2 Kg > > > came out from mathematical calculations made by > > Ephraim Segerman > > > considering > > > the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He > calculated > > some 1.2 till > > > 1.5 Kg. but > > > this was made considered the density of a low > twist > > gut (that > > > unstretched at > > > all). He made new calculations considering the > only > > alternative to the > > > loading of a gut that is stretchable and less > dens > > roped string. > > > This is why > > > tension would be around 1 Kg each bass string on > such > > historical > > > lutes. > > > Best > > > Jaroslaw > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Martyn Hodgson > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:45 PM > > > To: 'Lute'; Jarosław Lipski > > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: > Double > > headed > > > 12c/loaded/Demi-filé > > > > > > > > > I don't know where Mimmo gets the tension of > 0.9 - > > 1.0Kg from, but > > > as an > > > example: take a Dm tuned lute at 68cm (with top > course > > f' tuned as > > > reasonably high as it will go without excessive > > breakages allows a > > > pitch of > > > A415) with a bass string hole allowing a max > string of > > diameter of > > > 1.4mm > > > gives a string tension of around 1.45Kg. > > > > > > MH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information > at > > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Sent from Yahoo! Mail. > A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html __________________________________________________________ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html