Re: LUTE-etymology

[Dr. Marion Ceruti]

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Mar 23, 2005 6:34 AM
To: LUTE-LIST <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
        Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LUTE-etymology

>. Michael has made a bit of a treatise on the Chinese lute >- but at
>the same time many on this list have said my "flat back" >isn't a lute. No
>problem there, just approaching etymology from the >front end

      Jon,
    The Chinese and Tibetan lutes both have pair shaped bodies with long
necks, with goat skin tops.  Without a doubt these were the origins and
influence of the lute as we know it today.  Paintings and art going back
thousands of years show these type instruments. A lute doesn't have to have
a bent back pegbox, otherwise we would be calling Weiss's lute suites, sitar
suites!
      Also, they probably were the first to use silk (wound silk )and gut
strings, were else did silk come from? They also used brass and bronze metal
strings, and later degenerated into using steel, this from a European
influence,.
    Eastern ( Indian) music was much more advanced than western music for
the time.  And in some circles might still be considered so.

++In Western music, the emphasis is on harmonic development, but in 
Eastern music the emphasis is on melodic development. Sometimes
their scales typically include quarter tones and at other times they use
many of the Greek modes about as often as we employ major and
minor today. For example, one tape I obtained from Pakistan had several
songs written in Lydian, Phrygian and Dorian modes. Even one was Raga
on an Indian tape was in a Locrian mode, which sounds very unusual 
(and seems unstable) to the Western ear.

    However, there does seem to be a prejudice by western historians to only
see there own nose, and not look beyond the box, and believe that the lute
is an exclusive western religious icon, handed down by the Gods, or God if
your Christian.

++Our lutes were derived from Arabian lutes, which in turn seem to have 
been influenced by Chinese and Tibetan instruments. Does anyone
know where all this started? What does the historic record say about the
origin of the Chinese and Tibetan lutes?

    This is a mindset established thousands of years ago, to discount and
ignore any influence that is non Christian ( Eastern) in western art and
culture.

++Fortunately this is changing. Eastern music is very interesting and
beautiful.

Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "LUTE-LIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Roman Turovsky"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: LUTE-etymology


> With many of you I have difficulty finding the "familiar Greek" LEUTIKA as
> my Greek dictionary uses Greek characters. Is this lambda-epsilon
> (eta)-upsilon-tau-iota-kappa-alpha?. And what is the HA, there is no "h"
as
> a character. Is a form I don't know of the English article "the" (Gr. "o",
> "oi", etc.). My computer font isn't set up to make the left versus right
> curved apostrophe that sets the "h" sound before the vowel, so I leave it
> out. But if the tail points at the vowel you put in the "h", and if the
tail
> points away you don't.
>
> Etymology is fun, and often informative, but also can be counter
productive.
> Similar sounds as pronounced, or spelled, today may have been quite
> different. Michael has made a bit of a treatise on the Chinese lute - but
at
> the same time many on this list have said my "flat back" isn't a lute. No
> problem there, just approaching etymology from the front end.
>
> There is a river in Connecticutt called the Thames (and pronounced that
> way), and one in London called the "Tems" and spelled Thames (the Norman
> French couldn't pronounce the "th", and neither can my Norman French
wife).
> There are a myriad of sounds in language, and only a few basic forms of
> musical instrument (when you go back to the origins). Although we trace
the
> progress of the Indo-European peoples linguistically by the similarities
in
> the words for native animals, etc. (if there is no relative word in an
> earlier related language we assume a migration) - that doesn't account for
> slang. The hammered dulcimer is of the zither family, and the Appalachian
> dulcimer is of the lute family. (And don't quarrel with me on Kingdom,
> phylum, class, order, family, genus and species - I picked the word family
> out of the air). Just as our taxonomy of biology is a bit confused as we
> learn more about the mixes and matches, so our taxonomy of musical
> instruments. The same thing can evolve, or be developed, in different
places
> in different ways. External similarities don't imply a common origin.
>
> The Skene Mandora Book (c.1615) has tabulation for a small instrument of
> five strings tuned in fifths, but the historical mandora is a different
> instrument. A borrowed word? Many words are borrowed, or misapplied.
>
> Etymology is fun, I repeat. but one has to watch out for the urban legends
> such as "for unlawful carnal knowledge". Parallel development is probably
> the origin of most musical instruments - then after the original parallel
> development the merging of styles and forms as the known world expanded.
>
> Words apply only to a period, the word "ass" meaning one's rear end was
> originally a euphemism for "arse" in polite company, and now is not proper
> in polite company unless in the context of a donkey.
>
> Best, Jon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "LUTE-LIST" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: LUTE-etymology
>
>
> > >> There is a fascinating discussion on the etymology of LUTE on the
> French
> > >> lute-list. In a nutshell: not only the Greek provenance of the word
is
> no
> > >> longer discountable, but limiting oneself to Arabic provenance is
> beginning
> > >> to look ludicrous. The messages can be found on Yahoo-Groups.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, I do not speak French. Would you mind to keep us
> > > informed?
> > Not at all, happy to oblige:
> > In many European languages there are LUTE-like words that describe
MARINE
> > VESSELS of obvious derivation from the familiar Greek (HA)LEUTIKA, in
> > Italian, Spanish, Catalan, French, AND last but not least- Slavonic
> > languages.
> > This certainly is corroborated by the iconographic evidence of lutes
> > predating Muslims' spewing out of Hijaz.
> > RT
> >
> > --
> > http://polyhymnion.org/torban
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>