I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they
are
still on the books and most likely will never come off. I have not
been
hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter
eggs
and
people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to
protect
people from making any form of profit. There is also no statue of
limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>;
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
Hi Adam,
What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without
actual
charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.
I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened
during,
or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those
same
officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to
bigger
fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding
American
meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long
for
them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough
money to
merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
topic.
I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have
hard
core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of
hours
per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact
with
was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some
day
if we ever get together we can share some stories.
As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a
point.
You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up
fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will
hold
true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first
North
American Lunar.
The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )
Sincerely,
Larry Atkins
IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm
-----Original Message-----
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
I wish what you said was true. Our entire group was hassled around
the
Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California. Eight of our team
members
were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been
hassled
as well. Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know
what
is being sold on eBay. We were told that some public land is
designated
as
heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely
off
limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas. I cannot
find
any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in
field
so be careful. Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened
with
their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the
dinosaur.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com>
To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>;
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
Hi Adam, All,
This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the
laws
meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to
nothing,
ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people
enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than
hassle
rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling
I've
never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law
enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I
was
doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck!
Have
a
great day!"
Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.
Sincerely,
Larry Atkins
IMCA # 1941
Ebay alienrockfarm
-----Original Message-----
From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2
where
you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the
United States. It is against federal and most state laws to use
meteorites
found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder
is
not
allowed to sell anything they find. Private citizen are prohibited
from
making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.
2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the
recovery
of
meteorites,
would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered
material
from a
new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly
follows
that the total
mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not
just
the
quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a
fall
is obviously
more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
terrestrial
weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived
radioisotopes
have
decayed below the threshold of detectability.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Matson, Rob D. via Meteorite-list"
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
Hi Ian,
Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison
example
against
current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is
appropriate.
Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my
mind
for
science.
In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill,
Novato,
Battle Mountain,
Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these
falls.
USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the
fireball,
a
private individual
and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was then
on
sold. Finally it
was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral......just not
ideal
I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of each
of
these falls made
it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to
consider:
(1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the
majority
of
pertinent
scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd love
to
have all of it since
the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily homogenous.
(Case
in point:
Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how much
more
you're
going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.
(2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the
recovery
of
meteorites,
would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered
material
from a
new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly
follows
that the total
mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not
just
the
quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a
fall
is obviously
more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
terrestrial
weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived
radioisotopes
have
decayed below the threshold of detectability.
(3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set AND
considerable
expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than
95%
of
the
annual resources made available through government grants to recover
meteorites
goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis
of
nearly
all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a
number
of falls
outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time
and
money
traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of
these
expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated
individuals --
names that would all be familiar to anyone on the Meteorite List. On
occasion I have
seen other scientists "in the field," but I suspect in most cases it
was
on
their
own dime and not in an official paid capacity. Meteoriticists are paid
to
analyze
meteorites, not run around the country recovering them.
Now in Australia, we do have an likely issue of finds being hidden (
old
falls and
cold finds) due to our state laws. However this material will just
add
to
the 50,000
stones we need to know more about. Where these laws are a benefit is
that
when
our DFN etc detects a fall, scientists (not private hunters looking
for
profit or cost
recovery) will go out grab the stone and bring it back!
Perhaps in Australia this happens. I have not seen evidence that this
is
the
case
in the U.S. Researchers have access to the same information that I
do:
Doppler
radar, seismic networks, all-sky cameras, internet posts, the AMS
website
and
a dozen other resources. Nothing other than time and funding is
stopping
them
from competing with private citizens.
We will know where it came from, where it landed, who found it, what
it
is
and
where it will stay exactly. With much more than just a classification
but,
rare orbit
data - which is contributing greatly to mapping our solar system and
more!
Well, we got all of that on both Sutter's Mill and Creston, in spite
of
the
problems
of private land ownership and considerably harder searching conditions
than
the
almost ideal surfaces of the Australian outback. So both systems can
work.
I
just
think the current U.S. laws favor a higher success rate than in
Australia
because
they (at least currently) provide enough incentive to boost the
people-hours
that get devoted to each fall.
Best wishes,
Rob
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