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[Jaap Karssenberg]

<001f01c0f423$01003f40$0a00a8c0@proneuron>
Subject: MF time, thermodynamics and the inorganic level
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 02:14:41 -0000
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Hello foci,

First I have to say I disagree on time as being a intellectual pattern. I
agree it is a relation/ordening-mechanism used by the intellect, but I
suppose the fysical world to be the same without human minds ordening it.
Saying space and time are just patterns of the intellectual level directly
unleases the argument whether the world exists when nobody is there to
percieve it, or not. I posed that time might be of the biological level to
push the discussion a little away from direct fysics, but I'm afraid we will
stay there. So Brian, I agree that time --if anywhere in the
level-structure-- goes in the inorganic level. I'm not sure that the order
caused by the time-flow goes for all phenomenas of the inorganic level, but
it sure goes for a part of it and for anything 'above' - so it should be
somewhere in this level.

Going back to the first question of this month (about evolutionary processes
in fixed parameters of space and time) we can say that there ARE fixed
parameters of space and time in a system large enough to overcome the
"quantum-problems" (even when relativistic variations occur  space&time are
continuous and thus not dangereus to the pattern - no abbys). It is with
time as with thermodynamics: when you can speak of bulk-properties there is
no problem. There is, as Jonathan pointed out, a fascinating relation
between thermodynamics and time - I would say they have the concept of order
in common. How time bring order I tried to clarify in my previous email.
Thermodynamics bring order also: although entropy "seeks" chaos, it is this
quest for chaos that brings order to which process happens and which don't -
entropy is a law and thus an order in itself.

When the question is 'how primairly' the time-pattern is, we have to related
it to other primairly patterns and write a kind of history of the origine of
MOQ-reality (, topic suggestion ?). I would say that the evolution towards a
higher level needs to bring order on the current level and thus that to make
a higher level possible there was needed a law to order the inorganic-level:
maybe concepts like space, time, energy, mass and entropy are some facets of
this ordening-law. When seeking below this ordening-law you need a history,
or a map, of this level relating a concept like time to almost all other
basic concepts of this level - but is such seeking relevant to the general
system of MOQ ? I say we leave that to the scientists.

Coming at the problem of order and chaos you are very close to the
Static-Dynamic split, the very base of the MOQ. Since the topic asked also
whether the evolution (evolving from static to more dynamic levels) was in
conflict with time, and time seems to be related to an "order-chaos-term"
like "entropy", I want to ask whether it is clear what this evolution
strives for. The MOQ says it strives away from it's current, static, levels.
But does "away from it's static levels" mean towards chaos ? If it does at
least not the kind of chaos entropy "seeks". Are there different
kinds/levels of chaos (?), that would be helpfull formulating the relation
between entropy/time on one and evolution on the other hand. Or does "away
from it's static levels" mean "further on the razor edge of order" ?

In summary:
Time is an orderning inflicted by the inorganic level.
There are no direct problems with time as long as we take enough particles
to use statistics.
There could be a indirect conflict between time/entropy and evolution - but
this is a problem of defining order and chaos.

greetings,

Jaap

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