Hi Jim, Arthur,
On Thu, 2026-03-19 at 10:51 -0300, Jim Diamond wrote:
> (I guess things are clear,
> at least if I squint just right.)
>
> First, thanks for the long and detailed reply, I appreciate that it took a
> while for you to put that together.
Also, keep in mind that we are talking about a _tiny_ number of files
here. The ConTeXt packages in TL ("context", "context-legacy", and
"mptopdf") contain 6160 files, while the "context-nonfree" package
contains 63 files. But 43 of these files are for the Koeieletters font
(which is cute, but I doubt that its omission will bother anyone), so
there are really only 20 files omitted. Which I agree is still
inconvenient for users, but most users are unlikely to even notice.
> Second, while I strongly believe in the concepts of free(dom) and
> open-source software, I think some policies (such as "don't distribute
> software that only is useful with non-free software") are not necessarily
> friends of free/OSS, because "freedom" should include the freedom to use
> what software I want. In other words, these policies are restricting my
> freedom.
Sure, and this policy does not restrict you from loading non-free
images, packages, or fonts in any way. Things that _do_ restrict your
freedom are the LaTeX parts of luaotfload using only local variables,
the disabling of the "debug" module in LuaTeX, \overloadmode=255,
luatexbase disabling the raw callback registration system, etc., since
these actually prevent you from modifying certain behaviours. But
removing files just removes files, and there's nothing stopping you from
adding back in the files yourself.
> For example, if I am madly in love with some non-free typeface, a
> policy that essentially says "we're going to make it hard for you to use
> that typeface" is just spiteful.
This is definitely not spiteful: TUG sells the Lucida fonts (and this is
a _substantial_ source of revenue for us), and Karl is friends with
Chuck Bigelow, the designer of the fonts. Yet TL still excludes all the
Lucida support files and requires users to install them manually or from
tlcontrib, out of principle, not out of spite.
> Q: Do you think that, at the risk of raising the ire of the absolutist
> elements in the free software world, that mentioning tlcontrib more
> prominently (say, on https://www.tug.org/texlive/) would make sense? And
> if you think so, do you think Karl would agree?
First, a general point: I don't (and can't) speak for Karl, so you'll
need to check with him first about this. But the TL pages already
mention tlcontrib in various locations
https://tug.org/texlive/pkginstall.html#tlcontrib
https://tug.org/texlive/quickinstall.html
https://tug.org/texlive/doc/tlmgr.html#Pinning
so there's no "rule" against mentioning it in the documentation. And
documentation patches are always appreciated, so your suggestions will
likely be accepted. I think that the important points are:
- tlcontrib is a third-party repository, completely unaffiliated with
TeX Live (and TUG). Norbert happens to maintain both TL and tlcontrib,
but for documentation purposes, we pretend that that's not true.
- The official TL documentation should not recommend that
users install third-party repositories or non-free software.
Mentioning that these exist is fine, and so is telling users how to
install them, but users should never be encouraged to install them, or
made to think that installing them is the "default".
On Thu, 2026-03-19 at 17:39 +0100, Arthur Rosendahl wrote:
> You’re barking at the wrong tree. Max is trying to make ConTeXt
> easier to use with TeX Live, so everyone is going to agree with you
> here.
>
> > Q: Do you think that, at the risk of raising the ire of the absolutist
> > elements in the free software world, that mentioning tlcontrib more
> > prominently (say, on https://www.tug.org/texlive/) would make sense? And
> > if you think so, do you think Karl would agree?
>
> Karl is always in favour of improving the documentation. Writing and
> keeping it up to date is a thankless job, so any help is welcome.
> The point is obviously not to hide information.
+100 to all of the above.
Thanks,
-- Max
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