tigerbengalis
Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:42:41 -0700
No, I'm not "blaming Europeans for Zionism," I'm simply pointing out that political Zionism is a part of the same fabric of nationalistic European movements that peaked in the late 19th century. As a sentiment, it is no more pervasive than the nationalistic pride of any other nationality (and probably less vehement than many). It's revealing that you can only point to anecdotal "evidence" for your thesis: ""I've often heard...", "I've also heard Zionists on many occasions brag..." And what can you possibly mean when you say Jewish nationalism is "proactive and self-generated, and can't be blamed on the example of Europeans or any other group?" Are Jews so unique, such an "OTHER" that they could not simply be participating in the trends of the day that exist around them? Here you are simply giving a variation of the old theme of Jew as totally unique and outside of normal human discourse and history. Go back to Sartre, who dissected this phenomena years ago in his excellent "Anti-Semite and Jew":
"Without the presence of this metaÂphysical essence, the activities ascribed
to the Jew would be entirely incomprehensible."
I'm sure you will reply with more quotes and anecdotal "evidence" gleaned from
3,000 year old parchments pointing to support for the thesis of Jews and
Zionism being a unique form of nationalism. Feel free. But real facts are real
facvts--without the patronage of assorted European nations at different points
for their own self interest in the geopolitical games of the late 19th century,
a position taken over by the US in the post war era, there is NO poltical
Zionism. Political Zionism always was and remains a tool of those powers.
Sean McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: A further
word on blaming Europeans for Zionism: I've often heard pro-Israel activists
boast that Jewish nationalism is much more ancient than other forms of
nationalism, including European nationalism -- it's a point of pride with them,
and supposedly proof of their biblical chosenness and superiority. Even David
Ben-Gurion, a supposed atheist and Marxist, relied heavily on memes from the
first five books of the Bible to justify a program of ethnic cleansing on
behalf of Zionism.
I've also heard Zionists on many occasions brag that Jews will long outlive
other peoples, nations and ethnic groups, whom they dismiss with contempt on
biblical supremacist grounds. This behavior strikes me as being proactive and
self-generated, and can't be blamed on the example of Europeans or any other
group. Other groups, including Europeans, of course demonstrate the same kinds
of behavior -- for which they often try to blame Jews. Around and around it
goes. I strongly suspect genetic factors in play among humanity in general as
the root cause. Ethnic nationalism and ethnic supremacism are tools in the
competition for territory and resources among human groups. Admitting that we
are all instinctively inclined to behave this way is the first step, perhaps,
in evolving to a higher level of social organization. We need to be honest
with ourselves about what we are doing, not sleepwalking into acts of genocide
again and again under the cover of bombastic myths.
LeaNder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"This is pure politics, economics, and brute force
at work. These"ideological" obfuscations about the Old Testament are as minor
as the grand narrative yuths of America. Zionist Jews are doing nothing more
than playing the same game learned at the heels of the Europeans who perfected
the art. The tragedy is that Jews once played a great role in the global game
of social justice. But for those who didnt perish at the hands of the white
European Nazi slime now find themselves enslaved to the white Christian
American death machine.
And those handful of Jewish neoconservative's who some continue to insist are
wagging the American dog? Just lackeys, nothing more, nothing less."
tiger, I like the above passage a lot.
Especially this: "Zionist Jews are doing nothing more than playing the same
game learned at the heels of the Europeans who perfected the art."
One doesn't always hit the point so well if one keeps to one-liners.
The core evidence to out ta New Antisemite, is that he supports the thesis
of accusing Israel as reacist. {.... up to the other main
dialogue_killing-argument, allusions to my ancestor's 13-year-masters, of a
Reich meant for 1.000 years - my parents, their parents and parents witnessed
and had to witness ...) ... I am behind time in my reading list in the larger
scientific context.
The problem I have with the admittedly legitimate theory - there are several
central European voices in the larger contemorary and historical context, who
all deserve my utter attention - is I witnessed the post 911 political
atmosphere and the starting hunt for the anti-war European and then the US and
American Jewish left. The last to be attacked. The self-hating Jew surrounds
the peak of the developments.
I am very, very pleased that Sean introduced me to voices like: Phil Weiss,
Richard Silverman, Glenn Greenberg and others.
Did you already witness Sean McBride-the -antisemite times over at cia-drugs?
Personally I found it much more interesting than the Chip-Chippie tune by
Chip-Chippie and friends.
I think I need to dive a little into the intellectual origin of the theories.
Religion - Nation
Utopia - Machiavellism
Complex matters.
--- In political-research@yahoogroups.com, Sean McBride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> In the United States, in the year 2007, Americans are firmly committed to the
> concept of building a society on the basis of talent and achievement, not
> ethnicity or religion. Israel and Zionism are hopelessly mired down in
> ethno-religious concepts straight from the Old Testament. The mainstream
> Israel lobby, including AIPAC, has emphasized these "chosen people" themes in
> its campaign to win the support of Christian Armageddonists in the United
> States. Americanism and Zionism are fundamentally incompatible, as are
> American and Israeli strategic interests in a number of important spheres. I
> really see nothing controversial in the above statements.
>
> The Jerusalem Post just boasted that Jews dominate Vanity Fair's most recent
> survey of the American power elite -- they comprise more than 50% of the
> list, according to one of Israel's leading newspapers. Many of them are
> pro-Israel activists and militants. The neocons have in fact been the
> dominant political faction during the Bush 43 years, with the support of
> powerful neocon media owners and controllers. Who precisely are you claiming
> is controlling Rupert Murdoch, Sheldon Adelson, Sumner Redstone or Mort
> Zuckerman? Do they have names? Let's see the hard data.
>
> tigerbengalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sean,
> you take Jewish "messianic ethnic supremacism" far more seriously and gravely
> than pretty much any Zionist does today or in the modern era. Day to day
> Isreali concerns are much more mundane and vulgar, just like Americans'
> interests are vis a vis the founding principles (and myths) of America. Just
> like the average American has probably not read more than a quote from Thomas
> Jefferson, the average Israeli has read next to nothing of Herzl, and
> probably hasnt a clue who Moses Hess was.
>
> Despite your reverance for America's "America's core ideological values"
> which you hold up as so superior to Isrealis, America, lest you forget, was
> founded upon the ethnic cleansing/genocide of entire nations, and built upon
> chattel slavery, with a body count in the millions (continuing to this day).
>
> Israel is a classic colonial settler state (read someone like the fine
> scholar Maxime Rodinson on this rather than or in addition to the endless
> obfuscations of the Shlomo Avineris, who refuse to call a spade a spade lest
> they get run out of their universties on a rail). It is comparable to the
> South African apartheid regime, or probably more accuartely, the Ian Smith
> regime in Rhodesia. Except unlike those two regimes (and in similarity with
> the European settler state called America), the Jewish settlers became,
> through force, the majority (as are the Europeans in America).
> This is pure politics, economics, and brute force at work. These
> "ideological" obfuscations about the Old Testament are as minor as the grand
> narrative yths of America. Zionist Jews are doing nothing more than playing
> the same game learned at the heels of the Europeans who perfected the art.
> The tragedy is that Jews once played a great role in the global game of
> social justice. But for those who didnt perish at the hands of the white
> European Nazi slime now find themselves enslaved to the white Christian
> American death machine.
> And those handful of Jewish neoconservatives who some continue to insist are
> wagging the American dog? Just lackeys, nothing more, nothing less.
>
>
> Sean McBride [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The United States has suffered periodic eruptions
> of xenophobia and racism, but generally America's core ideological values are
> not ethnic nationalist or ethnic supremacist. Zionism has its roots in the
> messianic ethnic supremacism of the Old Testament and modern Jewish ethnic
> nationalists like Moses Hess. See: !{book; Shlomo Avineri; 1985; Moses Hess:
> Prophet of Communism and Zionism; New York University Press}.
>
> tigerbengalis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Who do you think the Zionists learned their
> ideology from?:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924
>
> Sean McBride [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> [Why Americanism and Zionism are radically
> different ideologies.]
>
>
>
>
> Sent to you by Sean McBride via Google Reader:
>
>
> Israel seeks to boost Jewish population (AFP)
> via Yahoo! News: Mideast Conflict on 10/16/07
>
> AFP - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert urged Jews worldwide to migrate on
> Tuesday as his government unveiled new incentives to woo back expats and
> reverse declining immigration.
>
>
>
>
>
> Things you can do from here:
> Visit the original item
> on Yahoo! News: Mideast Conflict
> Subscribe to Yahoo! News: Mideast Conflict using Google Reader
> Get started using Google Reader to easily keep up with all your favorite
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