Re: [Apple-Crop] Cueva/Double Nickel

2017-05-01 Thread Kerik D. Cox 

Hi Vincent,

I think you missed the first line of the last message where I say that 
this work was done with an airblast sprayer at 100 gal/A in my organic 
orchard. One must have a dedicated sprayer for organic. I can't use the 
handgun that block. Don't know what the fuss about handguns is about.


Actually, I've applied many of the organic coppers with an airblast and 
solo 451 mist blower and there was really no difference in performance 
in control or lack of phyto.


Best,
Kerik

If we “must" continue this:


Our injury results seem to follow the acute toxicity/exposure phenomenon, 
whereby injury is higher when the concentration is higher not more dilute. This 
is not unlike when one is exposed to a toxin in water, air, or direct contact.

In orchard trials, reducing volume and maintaining coverage requires adequate 
spraying technology. i/e Not a gun.

What does your spray deposit look like in your trials?

Copper ions in large droplets (or high volume) react with leaf tissue until the 
water evaporates.

Small droplets evaporate quicker and reduce the toxicity.

This is something you can’t see if you paint the trees with a film of water 
using a gun.

When you attempt to reduce volume using the same gun, all you do is apply 
“less” droplets… But they are still slow drying big droplets.


So you are likely to conclude more concentrated material is more toxic… This is 
not surprising, right?

But not so relevant to orchard spraying with small droplets.

Conclusions drawn from trials performed with guns using large droplets are not 
always directly  applicable with airblast sprayers.

it’s Happy hour time = Drinking 2 beers or one glass of wine is the same for 
the alcool test, right?

But beer “rental” is shorter than for wine because that excess volume can’t 
stay in your bladder so long. So for a given metabolic rate I’m betting alcohol 
in your blood is higher with beer. i/e beer would get you hammered quicker than 
wine. I could be wrong, but at least it’s cheaper.

Point is: concentration vs volume is not so straightforward and spray 
application technology can greatly impact results.

caveat emptor.


Vincent


  








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Kerik D.  Cox, Ph.D., Associate Professor
Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Section
School of Integrative Plant Science
Cornell University
221 Barton Lab
NYSAES
630 West North Street   
Geneva, NY 14456 USA

E-mail: kd...@cornell.edu
Faculty Office: (315) 787-2401
Fruit Pathology Lab: (315) 787-2402 
FAX: (315) 787-2389

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Re: [Apple-Crop] Cueva/Double Nickel

2017-05-01 Thread Vincent Philion 
If we “must" continue this:

> Our injury results seem to follow the acute toxicity/exposure phenomenon, 
> whereby injury is higher when the concentration is higher not more dilute. 
> This is not unlike when one is exposed to a toxin in water, air, or direct 
> contact. 

In orchard trials, reducing volume and maintaining coverage requires adequate 
spraying technology. i/e Not a gun.

What does your spray deposit look like in your trials?

Copper ions in large droplets (or high volume) react with leaf tissue until the 
water evaporates. 

Small droplets evaporate quicker and reduce the toxicity.

This is something you can’t see if you paint the trees with a film of water 
using a gun. 

When you attempt to reduce volume using the same gun, all you do is apply 
“less” droplets… But they are still slow drying big droplets. 


So you are likely to conclude more concentrated material is more toxic… This is 
not surprising, right? 

But not so relevant to orchard spraying with small droplets.

Conclusions drawn from trials performed with guns using large droplets are not 
always directly  applicable with airblast sprayers.

it’s Happy hour time = Drinking 2 beers or one glass of wine is the same for 
the alcool test, right?

But beer “rental” is shorter than for wine because that excess volume can’t 
stay in your bladder so long. So for a given metabolic rate I’m betting alcohol 
in your blood is higher with beer. i/e beer would get you hammered quicker than 
wine. I could be wrong, but at least it’s cheaper.

Point is: concentration vs volume is not so straightforward and spray 
application technology can greatly impact results.

caveat emptor.


Vincent


 







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Re: [Apple-Crop] Cueva/Double Nickel

2017-05-01 Thread Kerik Cox 

Hi Vincent,

Our organic trials were comparing Badge alt Microthiol and Cueva + 
Double Nickel. They were all air blast at 100 gal/A. We've done a lot of 
injury trials and injury is seems to be increased with low volume or 
concentrate applications. Our injury results seem to follow the acute 
toxicity/exposure phenomenon, whereby injury is higher when the 
concentration is higher not more dilute. This is not unlike when one is 
exposed to a toxin in water, air, or direct contact. A few years back, a 
lot of growers in NY injured their plantings with complicated tank mixes 
during thinning applications in low volume applications like 50 gal/A. 
Two many things were getting mixed with captan in insufficient water and 
being extruded from nozzles.


Kerik

On 5/1/2017 1:00 PM, Vincent Philion wrote:

Hi Kerik,

It would certainly be interesting to understand why results differ so 
greatly.


It’s unfortunate that companies insist on high volume spraying. Aside 
from the russeting issue, there are many good reasons to reduce spray 
volume (in relation to tree size). It’s also unfortunate most trials 
are done with a handgun (and no air assist?), resulting in a droplet 
spectrum size and spray distribution very different from what growers 
actually use.


In any case, the good news is your results imply that Cueva is very 
safe to use, even at high volume. Were you running oxychloride with a 
similar copper concentration alongside Cueva?


Vincent


Le 1 mai 2017 à 09:59, Kerik D. Cox > a écrit :


Hi Vincent,

I'm sorry that our trials resulted in the opposite expectation. Most 
of the company protocols ask me to apply their products at 100 gal/A. 
I guess they were hoping to increase the chance of showing product 
injury at my field days. I thought it was a more universal tree row 
volume for apples, my mistake. The field crews at Geneva and Ithaca 
sprays everything at 100 gal/A. I guess it's an underhanded attempt 
to potentially injure our plots with copper. With all my dilute 
handgun applications, I'm surprised that I don't have potatoes. I 
guess I keep getting lucky.


Best,
Kerik

Hi Kerik,

I don’t know how much experience you actually have with airblast 
sprayer trials varying volume, but this is something we do routinely.


Evidence of copper injury with high volume sprays dates back (at 
least) to 1972. Look it up. Classic experiments demonstrate the same 
amount of copper can defoliate plants or result in no injury, just 
by varying volume.


Let’s say I have a hard time “swallowing” your aspirin  analogy…! 
Let’s stick to apples, OK?


The fact that labels require you to apply large volumes of water 
doesn’t make it a sound or sensible advice.


Most likely, the labels reflect the trial conditions. And most 
trials in the USA are run with high volume….!

Vincent


Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:31, Kerik D. Cox > a écrit :


Hi Vincent,

We've found that concentration is potentially more damaging with 
copper than higher volumes as the both 50gal and 100gal get the 
same amount of copper. It's like taking powdered aspirin with half 
the recommended amount of water. Also, many labels in the US 
actually require that certain products be applied in a minimum of 
100 gal/A. If were potentially injurious to apply at 100 gal/A, I 
assure you that no company would include any such statements on 
label. Actually, they would, without a doubt, put statements saying 
that the product should not be applied at 100 gal/A or injury would 
occur. Excess water seems to just roll off the trees in our 
experiments.


Best,
Kerik
I hope you meant a Low volume of water. High volume = slow drying 
= russeting. This is very easy to demonstrate. We do it as a 
"control" in plots. We always have copper induced russeting at 500 
L/ha and none at 225 L/ha.


Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.

Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:05, Two Onion Farm > a écrit :


Kerik Cox at Cornell has done trials with this combination for 
cedar apple rust, summer fungal diseases, and fireblight and has 
had good results.


We started using the combination in our organic orchard last year 
and did not see any problems with fruit russeting.  Kerik did 
caution me to use a high volume of water to avoid toxicity from 
the copper (100 gallons per acre vs our normal 50 in our high 
density orchard).   We have used 2 qts/acre Cueva + 2 lbs/acre 
2ble nickel.


Kerik also suggested that the 2ble nickel might be unnecessary 
and that cueva alone might be sufficient, but that may be 
theoretical at this point.  The 2ble nickel does add a lot of cost.


Chris

Chris & Juli McGuire
Two Onion Farm
www.twoonionfarm.com 
19638 Cottage Inn Road
Belmont, WI 53510
(608) 762-5335
far...@twoonionfarm.com 


On 5/1/2017 6:43 AM, maurice tougas wrote:
A couple years ago I recall

Re: [Apple-Crop] Cueva/Double Nickel

2017-05-01 Thread Vincent Philion 
Hi Kerik,

It would certainly be interesting to understand why results differ so greatly.

It’s unfortunate that companies insist on high volume spraying. Aside from the 
russeting issue, there are many good reasons to reduce spray volume (in 
relation to tree size). It’s also unfortunate most trials are done with a 
handgun (and no air assist?), resulting in a droplet spectrum size and spray 
distribution very different from what growers actually use.

In any case, the good news is your results imply that Cueva is very safe to 
use, even at high volume. Were you running oxychloride with a similar copper 
concentration alongside Cueva?

Vincent


Le 1 mai 2017 à 09:59, Kerik D. Cox 
> a écrit :

Hi Vincent,

I'm sorry that our trials resulted in the opposite expectation. Most of the 
company protocols ask me to apply their products at 100 gal/A. I guess they 
were hoping to increase the chance of showing product injury at my field days. 
I thought it was a more universal tree row volume for apples, my mistake. The 
field crews at Geneva and Ithaca sprays everything at 100 gal/A. I guess it's 
an underhanded attempt to potentially injure our plots with copper. With all my 
dilute handgun applications, I'm surprised that I don't have potatoes. I guess 
I keep getting lucky.

Best,
Kerik
Hi Kerik,

I don’t know how much experience you actually have with airblast sprayer trials 
varying volume, but this is something we do routinely.

Evidence of copper injury with high volume sprays dates back (at least) to 
1972. Look it up. Classic experiments demonstrate the same amount of copper can 
defoliate plants or result in no injury, just by varying volume.

Let’s say I have a hard time “swallowing” your aspirin  analogy…! Let’s stick 
to apples, OK?

The fact that labels require you to apply large volumes of water doesn’t make 
it a sound or sensible advice.

Most likely, the labels reflect the trial conditions. And most trials in the 
USA are run with high volume….!

Vincent


Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:31, Kerik D. Cox 
> a écrit :

Hi Vincent,

We've found that concentration is potentially more damaging with copper than 
higher volumes as the both 50gal and 100gal get the same amount of copper. It's 
like taking powdered aspirin with half the recommended amount of water. Also, 
many labels in the US actually require that certain products be applied in a 
minimum of 100 gal/A. If were potentially injurious to apply at 100 gal/A, I 
assure you that no company would include any such statements on label. 
Actually, they would, without a doubt, put statements saying that the product 
should not be applied at 100 gal/A or injury would occur. Excess water seems to 
just roll off the trees in our  experiments.

Best,
Kerik
I hope you meant a Low volume of water. High volume = slow drying = russeting. 
This is very easy to demonstrate. We do it as a "control" in plots. We always 
have copper induced russeting at 500 L/ha and none at 225 L/ha.

Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.

Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:05, Two Onion Farm 
> a écrit :


Kerik Cox at Cornell has done trials with this combination for cedar apple 
rust, summer fungal diseases, and fireblight and has had good results.

We started using the combination in our organic orchard last year and did not 
see any problems with fruit russeting.  Kerik did caution me to use a high 
volume of water to avoid toxicity from the copper (100 gallons per acre vs our 
normal 50 in our high density orchard).   We have used 2 qts/acre Cueva + 2 
lbs/acre 2ble nickel.

Kerik also suggested that the 2ble nickel might be unnecessary and that cueva 
alone might be sufficient, but that may be theoretical at this point.  The 2ble 
nickel does add a lot of cost.

Chris

Chris & Juli McGuire
Two Onion Farm
www.twoonionfarm.com
19638 Cottage Inn Road
Belmont, WI 53510
(608) 762-5335
far...@twoonionfarm.com

On 5/1/2017 6:43 AM, maurice tougas wrote:
A couple years ago I recall discussion regarding the use of Cueva/Double Nickel 
combination as an alternative and/or rotation with strep for fireblight 
management. Is anyone aware of further research regarding this combination esp 
as to regards to crop safety and efficacy ?

Mo Tougas

--
Maurice Tougas
Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844



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Re: [Apple-Crop] Cueva/Double Nickel

2017-05-01 Thread Vincent Philion 
Hi Kerik,

I don’t know how much experience you actually have with airblast sprayer trials 
varying volume, but this is something we do routinely.

Evidence of copper injury with high volume sprays dates back (at least) to 
1972. Look it up. Classic experiments demonstrate the same amount of copper can 
defoliate plants or result in no injury, just by varying volume.

Let’s say I have a hard time “swallowing” your aspirin  analogy…! Let’s stick 
to apples, OK?

The fact that labels require you to apply large volumes of water doesn’t make 
it a sound or sensible advice.

Most likely, the labels reflect the trial conditions. And most trials in the 
USA are run with high volume….!

Vincent


Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:31, Kerik D. Cox 
> a écrit :

Hi Vincent,

We've found that concentration is potentially more damaging with copper than 
higher volumes as the both 50gal and 100gal get the same amount of copper. It's 
like taking powdered aspirin with half the recommended amount of water. Also, 
many labels in the US actually require that certain products be applied in a 
minimum of 100 gal/A. If were potentially injurious to apply at 100 gal/A, I 
assure you that no company would include any such statements on label. 
Actually, they would, without a doubt, put statements saying that the product 
should not be applied at 100 gal/A or injury would occur. Excess water seems to 
just roll off the trees in our  experiments.

Best,
Kerik
I hope you meant a Low volume of water. High volume = slow drying = russeting. 
This is very easy to demonstrate. We do it as a "control" in plots. We always 
have copper induced russeting at 500 L/ha and none at 225 L/ha.

Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.

Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:05, Two Onion Farm 
> a écrit :


Kerik Cox at Cornell has done trials with this combination for cedar apple 
rust, summer fungal diseases, and fireblight and has had good results.

We started using the combination in our organic orchard last year and did not 
see any problems with fruit russeting.  Kerik did caution me to use a high 
volume of water to avoid toxicity from the copper (100 gallons per acre vs our 
normal 50 in our high density orchard).   We have used 2 qts/acre Cueva + 2 
lbs/acre 2ble nickel.

Kerik also suggested that the 2ble nickel might be unnecessary and that cueva 
alone might be sufficient, but that may be theoretical at this point.  The 2ble 
nickel does add a lot of cost.

Chris

Chris & Juli McGuire
Two Onion Farm
www.twoonionfarm.com
19638 Cottage Inn Road
Belmont, WI 53510
(608) 762-5335
far...@twoonionfarm.com

On 5/1/2017 6:43 AM, maurice tougas wrote:
A couple years ago I recall discussion regarding the use of Cueva/Double Nickel 
combination as an alternative and/or rotation with strep for fireblight 
management. Is anyone aware of further research regarding this combination esp 
as to regards to crop safety and efficacy ?

Mo Tougas

--
Maurice Tougas
Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844



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--
Kerik D.  Cox, Ph.D., Associate Professor
Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Section
School of Integrative Plant Science
Cornell University
221 Barton Lab
NYSAES
630 West North Street
Geneva, NY 14456 USA

E-mail: kd...@cornell.edu
Faculty Office: (315) 787-2401
Fruit Pathology Lab: (315) 787-2402
FAX: (315) 787-2389


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Re: [Apple-Crop] Cueva/Double Nickel

2017-05-01 Thread Kerik D. Cox 

Hi Vincent,

We've found that concentration is potentially more damaging with copper 
than higher volumes as the both 50gal and 100gal get the same amount of 
copper. It's like taking powdered aspirin with half the recommended 
amount of water. Also, many labels in the US actually require that 
certain products be applied in a minimum of 100 gal/A. If were 
potentially injurious to apply at 100 gal/A, I assure you that no 
company would include any such statements on label. Actually, they 
would, without a doubt, put statements saying that the product should 
not be applied at 100 gal/A or injury would occur. Excess water seems to 
just roll off the trees in our  experiments.


Best,
Kerik
I hope you meant a Low volume of water. High volume = slow drying = 
russeting. This is very easy to demonstrate. We do it as a "control" 
in plots. We always have copper induced russeting at 500 L/ha and none 
at 225 L/ha.


Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.

Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:05, Two Onion Farm > a écrit :


Kerik Cox at Cornell has done trials with this combination for cedar 
apple rust, summer fungal diseases, and fireblight and has had good 
results.


We started using the combination in our organic orchard last year and 
did not see any problems with fruit russeting.  Kerik did caution me 
to use a high volume of water to avoid toxicity from the copper (100 
gallons per acre vs our normal 50 in our high density orchard).   We 
have used 2 qts/acre Cueva + 2 lbs/acre 2ble nickel.


Kerik also suggested that the 2ble nickel might be unnecessary and 
that cueva alone might be sufficient, but that may be theoretical at 
this point.  The 2ble nickel does add a lot of cost.


Chris

Chris & Juli McGuire
Two Onion Farm
www.twoonionfarm.com 
19638 Cottage Inn Road
Belmont, WI 53510
(608) 762-5335
far...@twoonionfarm.com 


On 5/1/2017 6:43 AM, maurice tougas wrote:
A couple years ago I recall discussion regarding the use of 
Cueva/Double Nickel combination as an alternative and/or rotation 
with strep for fireblight management. Is anyone aware of further 
research regarding this combination esp as to regards to crop safety 
and efficacy ?


Mo Tougas

--
Maurice Tougas
Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844


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--
Kerik D.  Cox, Ph.D., Associate Professor
Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Section
School of Integrative Plant Science
Cornell University
221 Barton Lab
NYSAES
630 West North Street   
Geneva, NY 14456 USA

E-mail: kd...@cornell.edu
Faculty Office: (315) 787-2401
Fruit Pathology Lab: (315) 787-2402 
FAX: (315) 787-2389

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Re: [Apple-Crop] Cueva/Double Nickel

2017-05-01 Thread Two Onion Farm 
I'm certainly not an expert!  The cueva label says "May cause russeting 
of susceptible apple varieties. Do not exceed the 1.0 gallon of product/ 
100 gallons water use rate."  When Kerik started me on this program, he 
said "we never get fruit finish injury. However, depending on your spray 
volume, you could have a different experience. We use 100 gal/A in our 
block."



On 5/1/2017 7:13 AM, Vincent Philion wrote:
I hope you meant a Low volume of water. High volume = slow drying = 
russeting. This is very easy to demonstrate. We do it as a "control" 
in plots. We always have copper induced russeting at 500 L/ha and none 
at 225 L/ha.


Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.

Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:05, Two Onion Farm > a écrit :


Kerik Cox at Cornell has done trials with this combination for cedar 
apple rust, summer fungal diseases, and fireblight and has had good 
results.


We started using the combination in our organic orchard last year and 
did not see any problems with fruit russeting.  Kerik did caution me 
to use a high volume of water to avoid toxicity from the copper (100 
gallons per acre vs our normal 50 in our high density orchard).   We 
have used 2 qts/acre Cueva + 2 lbs/acre 2ble nickel.


Kerik also suggested that the 2ble nickel might be unnecessary and 
that cueva alone might be sufficient, but that may be theoretical at 
this point.  The 2ble nickel does add a lot of cost.


Chris

Chris & Juli McGuire
Two Onion Farm
www.twoonionfarm.com 
19638 Cottage Inn Road
Belmont, WI 53510
(608) 762-5335
far...@twoonionfarm.com 


On 5/1/2017 6:43 AM, maurice tougas wrote:
A couple years ago I recall discussion regarding the use of 
Cueva/Double Nickel combination as an alternative and/or rotation 
with strep for fireblight management. Is anyone aware of further 
research regarding this combination esp as to regards to crop safety 
and efficacy ?


Mo Tougas

--
Maurice Tougas
Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844


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Re: [Apple-Crop] Cueva/Double Nickel

2017-05-01 Thread Vincent Philion 
On the topic of copper: you don't need to spend extra for Cueva. Use of 
standard oxychloride at a low dose is just as good in most instances.

Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.

Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:05, Two Onion Farm 
> a écrit :


Kerik Cox at Cornell has done trials with this combination for cedar apple 
rust, summer fungal diseases, and fireblight and has had good results.

We started using the combination in our organic orchard last year and did not 
see any problems with fruit russeting.  Kerik did caution me to use a high 
volume of water to avoid toxicity from the copper (100 gallons per acre vs our 
normal 50 in our high density orchard).   We have used 2 qts/acre Cueva + 2 
lbs/acre 2ble nickel.

Kerik also suggested that the 2ble nickel might be unnecessary and that cueva 
alone might be sufficient, but that may be theoretical at this point.  The 2ble 
nickel does add a lot of cost.

Chris

Chris & Juli McGuire
Two Onion Farm
www.twoonionfarm.com
19638 Cottage Inn Road
Belmont, WI 53510
(608) 762-5335
far...@twoonionfarm.com

On 5/1/2017 6:43 AM, maurice tougas wrote:
A couple years ago I recall discussion regarding the use of Cueva/Double Nickel 
combination as an alternative and/or rotation with strep for fireblight 
management. Is anyone aware of further research regarding this combination esp 
as to regards to crop safety and efficacy ?

Mo Tougas

--
Maurice Tougas
Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844



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Re: [Apple-Crop] Cueva/Double Nickel

2017-05-01 Thread Vincent Philion 
I hope you meant a Low volume of water. High volume = slow drying = russeting. 
This is very easy to demonstrate. We do it as a "control" in plots. We always 
have copper induced russeting at 500 L/ha and none at 225 L/ha.

Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.

Le 1 mai 2017 à 08:05, Two Onion Farm 
> a écrit :


Kerik Cox at Cornell has done trials with this combination for cedar apple 
rust, summer fungal diseases, and fireblight and has had good results.

We started using the combination in our organic orchard last year and did not 
see any problems with fruit russeting.  Kerik did caution me to use a high 
volume of water to avoid toxicity from the copper (100 gallons per acre vs our 
normal 50 in our high density orchard).   We have used 2 qts/acre Cueva + 2 
lbs/acre 2ble nickel.

Kerik also suggested that the 2ble nickel might be unnecessary and that cueva 
alone might be sufficient, but that may be theoretical at this point.  The 2ble 
nickel does add a lot of cost.

Chris

Chris & Juli McGuire
Two Onion Farm
www.twoonionfarm.com
19638 Cottage Inn Road
Belmont, WI 53510
(608) 762-5335
far...@twoonionfarm.com

On 5/1/2017 6:43 AM, maurice tougas wrote:
A couple years ago I recall discussion regarding the use of Cueva/Double Nickel 
combination as an alternative and/or rotation with strep for fireblight 
management. Is anyone aware of further research regarding this combination esp 
as to regards to crop safety and efficacy ?

Mo Tougas

--
Maurice Tougas
Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844



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[Apple-Crop] Cueva/Double Nickel

2017-05-01 Thread maurice tougas 
A couple years ago I recall discussion regarding the use of Cueva/Double
Nickel combination as an alternative and/or rotation with strep for
fireblight management. Is anyone aware of further research regarding this
combination esp as to regards to crop safety and efficacy ?

Mo Tougas

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Maurice Tougas
Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844
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