Re: [apple-crop] Liquid Lime Sulfur?

[Vincent Philion]

Hi! I frankly don’t know. I’m assuming it’s related to volume. i/e Dilute vs 
concentrate ? Dilute rates result in more phytotoxicity than concentrate. This 
is “known”, but I’m not sure we always account for that when experiments are 
run with a “gun”. All else being equal, results at 250 L/ha are likely 
different from 1000 L/ha… Or 2500 L/ha! (ie about 30 GPA vs 300 GPA).

  

> Le 7 avr. 2016 à 21:02, David A. Rosenberger  a écrit :
> 
> I’m surprised that your graphic (and I think I heard the same from Marc 
> Trapman) suggests that in Europe they recommend using LLS only on wet leaves 
> whereas the old info from Burrell suggested that it should NOT be applied to 
> wet leaves.  Any explanation?
>> On Apr 7, 2016, at 5:31 PM, Vincent Philion  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>>> I heard at the Hudson Valley RIMpro meeting last
>>> month that bicarbonate is used in Europe during rainfall
>> 
>>> That would seem to necessitate repeated applications during an infections 
>>> period. Does it have no after-infection value?
>> 
>> In replicated tests over the years, we saw value in using bicarbonate in a 
>> “short” post-infection window. (250DH). However, If spraying your orchard 
>> takes more than 12 hours, these “soft” molecules are not for you. In the 
>> same tests, Inspire Super or Fontelis or Aprovia are better. No question.
>> 
>> 
>> We use RIMpro to time bicarbonate in order to clean up spores ejected 
>> typically the day before. Timed properly, you don’t “usually” need multiple 
>> sprays. We adjust to risk (RIM value). If conditions dictate an additional 
>> spray, then we advise it.
>> 
>> 
>> We know enough about spore ejection dynamics to spray it “when it hurts”. 
>> 
>> Granted, Infections that extend for many days can be tricky. But usually, 
>> bicarbonate is tank mixed with sulfur so you are getting dual action = some 
>> kick back and protection for spores to come. 
>> 
>> Not sure the picture will be sent via Apple Crop. But I attached one slide I 
>> use with growers (from Trapman)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> apple-crop mailing list
>> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
> 
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

___
apple-crop mailing list
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

Re: [apple-crop] Liquid Lime Sulfur?

[David A. Rosenberger]

I’m surprised that your graphic (and I think I heard the same from Marc 
Trapman) suggests that in Europe they recommend using LLS only on wet leaves 
whereas the old info from Burrell suggested that it should NOT be applied to 
wet leaves.  Any explanation?
> On Apr 7, 2016, at 5:31 PM, Vincent Philion  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
>>  I heard at the Hudson Valley RIMpro meeting last
>> month that bicarbonate is used in Europe during rainfall
> 
>> That would seem to necessitate repeated applications during an infections 
>> period. Does it have no after-infection value?
> 
> In replicated tests over the years, we saw value in using bicarbonate in a 
> “short” post-infection window. (250DH). However, If spraying your orchard 
> takes more than 12 hours, these “soft” molecules are not for you. In the same 
> tests, Inspire Super or Fontelis or Aprovia are better. No question.
> 
> 
> We use RIMpro to time bicarbonate in order to clean up spores ejected 
> typically the day before. Timed properly, you don’t “usually” need multiple 
> sprays. We adjust to risk (RIM value). If conditions dictate an additional 
> spray, then we advise it.
> 
> 
> We know enough about spore ejection dynamics to spray it “when it hurts”. 
> 
> Granted, Infections that extend for many days can be tricky. But usually, 
> bicarbonate is tank mixed with sulfur so you are getting dual action = some 
> kick back and protection for spores to come. 
> 
> Not sure the picture will be sent via Apple Crop. But I attached one slide I 
> use with growers (from Trapman)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

___
apple-crop mailing list
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

Re: [apple-crop] Liquid Lime Sulfur?

[Vincent Philion]

Hi!

I heard at the Hudson Valley RIMpro meeting last
month that bicarbonate is used in Europe during rainfall

That would seem to necessitate repeated applications during an infections 
period. Does it have no after-infection value?

In replicated tests over the years, we saw value in using bicarbonate in a 
“short” post-infection window. (250DH). However, If spraying your orchard takes 
more than 12 hours, these “soft” molecules are not for you. In the same tests, 
Inspire Super or Fontelis or Aprovia are better. No question.


We use RIMpro to time bicarbonate in order to clean up spores ejected typically 
the day before. Timed properly, you don’t “usually” need multiple sprays. We 
adjust to risk (RIM value). If conditions dictate an additional spray, then we 
advise it.


We know enough about spore ejection dynamics to spray it “when it hurts”.

Granted, Infections that extend for many days can be tricky. But usually, 
bicarbonate is tank mixed with sulfur so you are getting dual action = some 
kick back and protection for spores to come.

Not sure the picture will be sent via Apple Crop. But I attached one slide I 
use with growers (from Trapman)

[cid:89B68EFD-75D8-461A-9E20-E50D36FF1ECE@irda.irda.qc.ca]



___
apple-crop mailing list
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

Re: [apple-crop] Liquid Lime Sulfur?

[Vincent Philion]

Hi!

Normal only in the context of Organic Production only! Part of the 
phytotoxicity is avoided by using a much reduced rate in summer.

I meant to say it’s not a rescue treatment for anyone.

it’s either ’normal’ (organic) or completely forgotten (IPM).

I would also say that LLS is quickly being replaced by bicarbonate. And IPM 
growers are looking into it as well.

Vincent

> Le 7 avr. 2016 à 15:56, David Kollas  a écrit :
> 
> 
> 
> I was surprised by Vincent’s comment that liquid lime sulfur is a “normal” 
> choice for post-infection in his area. My recollection
> is that its use quickly went out of favor when ferbam and captan became 
> available, mostly because of reduced photosynthetic
> ability of LLS-damaged leaves.  Maybe the poor fruit set and lower-sugar 
> apples are less apparent if those sprays are not repeated, compounding the 
> damage.  How are the Quebec growers avoiding LLS injury, Vincent?
> 
> Concerning Dave Rosenbergers suggestion that burning the leaves sufficiently 
> to stop growth of the fungus might be beneficial,
> I have wondered whether captan and oil could be used for that purpose, but I 
> have never tried it.  If no one knows of any such
> trial, I may give it a try this year. I would expect to loose the crop, but 
> hopefully sufficient new foliage would develop to make flower buds for next 
> year.
> 
> David Kollas
> Kollas Orchard; CT
> 
> 
> On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:17 PM, David Doud  wrote:
> 
>> LLS was out of favor here before I started spraying, but I do have some 
>> references and dad used to talk about it - 
>> 
>> from 1944 ‘Spray Chemicals’ - “The disadvantages are that liquid lime-sulfur 
>> is very disagreeable to use owing to its causticity. Also this causticity is 
>> blamed for subsequent foliage dwarfing, injury, loss of foliage, reduction 
>> in rate of photosynthesis, and fruit russeting of apples…Young tender tissue 
>> contains abundant oxygen, and these polysulfides immediately satisfy 
>> themselves by taking the oxygen supply from the leaf tissue.  As a result, 
>> normal leaf functions are temporarily disrupted and desiccation of marginal 
>> cells, or "burning” takes place.  The leaves take on a “crinkled” appearance 
>> and rarely develop normally.  This reaction also offers an explanation for 
>> sulfur russeting during the pre-pink, pink, and petal fall stage of fruit 
>> formation…”
>> 
>> there is varietal variation in regard to susceptibility to LLS injury - 
>> 
>> In your situation, I would be very conservative using LLS until the foliage 
>> has a chance to dry and harden - at least one good sunny day of well above 
>> freezing temps and no more freezing temperatures forecast  - but whadda I 
>> know?
>> 
>> I’m in about the same situation as you - sitting here at 1/2” green, a 
>> couple of long wetting periods and 3”+ of rain at mostly cold temps but 
>> enough 50*+ hours to cause concern - two nights, one 24*, one 23* earlier 
>> this week and two more forecast for saturday morning and sunday morning - 
>> the orchard is soaked and soggy and there is still pruning brush in the way 
>> some places - not to mention high winds for the last 4 days - and 30mph 
>> gusts today - 
>> 
>> I’m not going to worry too much - after we get out of this weather pattern 
>> and I can get thru the plantings I’ll get a protectant on and scout 
>> carefully after symptoms have time to develop - I’ve conserved chemicals 
>> like Syllit, Topsin-M, Rally, and the like and feel like if I need to I can 
>> knock out an infection if one develops - 
>> 
>> Dad used to talk about the year they got scab started at green tip and the 
>> frustrating season long fight afterwards - it was before I was born and I 
>> don’t recall specifically which year he mentioned, but it was a big deal - I 
>> think we have some better options today to deal with that situation - at 
>> least I hope so - 
>> 
>> Good luck - 
>> David 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 7, 2016, at 12:56 PM, David Kollas  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Does anyone have enough experience with liquid lime sulfur to comment 
>>> on it as an emergency
>>> choice for application before rains have stopped during the current long 
>>> infection period?  It is listed as 
>>> having 72-96 hours back-action in the New England Tree Fruits Management 
>>> Guide.
>>> In my particular situation, Half-Inch Green stage tissues were exposed 
>>> many hours during two of
>>> the previous three nights to 18-20 degrees F, and are probably extra 
>>> sensitive to captan penetration
>>> and phytotoxicity.
>>> 
>>> David Kollas
>>> Kollas Orchard
>>> Connecticut 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> apple-crop mailing list
>>> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>>> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>> 
>> ___
>> apple-crop mailing list
>> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>> 

Re: [apple-crop] Liquid Lime Sulfur?

[David Kollas]

I was surprised by Vincent’s comment that liquid lime sulfur is a “normal” 
choice for post-infection in his area. My recollection
is that its use quickly went out of favor when ferbam and captan became 
available, mostly because of reduced photosynthetic
ability of LLS-damaged leaves.  Maybe the poor fruit set and lower-sugar apples 
are less apparent if those sprays are not repeated, compounding the damage.  
How are the Quebec growers avoiding LLS injury, Vincent?

Concerning Dave Rosenbergers suggestion that burning the leaves sufficiently to 
stop growth of the fungus might be beneficial,
I have wondered whether captan and oil could be used for that purpose, but I 
have never tried it.  If no one knows of any such
trial, I may give it a try this year. I would expect to loose the crop, but 
hopefully sufficient new foliage would develop to make flower buds for next 
year.

David Kollas
Kollas Orchard; CT

 
On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:17 PM, David Doud  wrote:

> LLS was out of favor here before I started spraying, but I do have some 
> references and dad used to talk about it - 
> 
> from 1944 ‘Spray Chemicals’ - “The disadvantages are that liquid lime-sulfur 
> is very disagreeable to use owing to its causticity. Also this causticity is 
> blamed for subsequent foliage dwarfing, injury, loss of foliage, reduction in 
> rate of photosynthesis, and fruit russeting of apples…Young tender tissue 
> contains abundant oxygen, and these polysulfides immediately satisfy 
> themselves by taking the oxygen supply from the leaf tissue.  As a result, 
> normal leaf functions are temporarily disrupted and desiccation of marginal 
> cells, or "burning” takes place.  The leaves take on a “crinkled” appearance 
> and rarely develop normally.  This reaction also offers an explanation for 
> sulfur russeting during the pre-pink, pink, and petal fall stage of fruit 
> formation…”
> 
> there is varietal variation in regard to susceptibility to LLS injury - 
> 
> In your situation, I would be very conservative using LLS until the foliage 
> has a chance to dry and harden - at least one good sunny day of well above 
> freezing temps and no more freezing temperatures forecast  - but whadda I 
> know?
> 
> I’m in about the same situation as you - sitting here at 1/2” green, a couple 
> of long wetting periods and 3”+ of rain at mostly cold temps but enough 50*+ 
> hours to cause concern - two nights, one 24*, one 23* earlier this week and 
> two more forecast for saturday morning and sunday morning - the orchard is 
> soaked and soggy and there is still pruning brush in the way some places - 
> not to mention high winds for the last 4 days - and 30mph gusts today - 
> 
> I’m not going to worry too much - after we get out of this weather pattern 
> and I can get thru the plantings I’ll get a protectant on and scout carefully 
> after symptoms have time to develop - I’ve conserved chemicals like Syllit, 
> Topsin-M, Rally, and the like and feel like if I need to I can knock out an 
> infection if one develops - 
> 
> Dad used to talk about the year they got scab started at green tip and the 
> frustrating season long fight afterwards - it was before I was born and I 
> don’t recall specifically which year he mentioned, but it was a big deal - I 
> think we have some better options today to deal with that situation - at 
> least I hope so - 
> 
> Good luck - 
> David 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 7, 2016, at 12:56 PM, David Kollas  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>  Does anyone have enough experience with liquid lime sulfur to comment 
>> on it as an emergency
>> choice for application before rains have stopped during the current long 
>> infection period?  It is listed as 
>> having 72-96 hours back-action in the New England Tree Fruits Management 
>> Guide.
>>  In my particular situation, Half-Inch Green stage tissues were exposed 
>> many hours during two of
>> the previous three nights to 18-20 degrees F, and are probably extra 
>> sensitive to captan penetration
>> and phytotoxicity.
>> 
>> David Kollas
>> Kollas Orchard
>> Connecticut 
>> 
>> ___
>> apple-crop mailing list
>> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
> 
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

___
apple-crop mailing list
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

Re: [apple-crop] Liquid Lime Sulfur?

[David A. Rosenberger]

Art Burrell, working in the Champlain Valley of NY where spring temperatures 
are often cool, would agree with you.  The sentences after the section that I 
quoted in the previous post says:
 “We have a period up to 60 or 70 hours, after the start of theinfection 
period, during which a heavy application of lime sulfur may prevent the 
appearance of lesions. Inevitably there will be some injury from the use of 
lime sulfur. Even in the absence of visible scorch, food manufacture by leaves 
is cut down for a few days by lime sulfur. This apperas to be chiefly from that 
part of the spray that reaches the lower survaces of the leaves. The injury is 
worst under high temperature, slow drying conditions, and on sensitive 
varieties such as Baldwins. Low-vigor trees have poor ability to recover from 
lime sulfur injury.”

I thought that I had read elsewhere that liquid-lime sulfur might provide up to 
4 days (96-hr) of post-infection activity, but perhaps that was a figment of my 
imagination.  On the other hand, you might eliminate scab on young leaves if 
you spray lime sulfur with a bit of oil while leaves are still wet, thereby 
causing enough burn to make the scab-infected leaves (and a probably a lot of 
other leaves) fall off of the tree before scab can begin sporulate :)

Incidentally, a product called Sulforix is being promoted as an alternative to 
liquid lime sulfur, but so far as I know it will not be any safer or reach back 
any futher than the old lime sulfur that Art Burrell was using in the 1940’s.

On Apr 7, 2016, at 1:18 PM, Vincent Philion 
> wrote:

If you worry about Captan phytotoxicity, then you should also worry about LLS 
being phytotoxic under the same conditions. Liquid lime sulfur is a ’normal’ 
(ie not emergency) choice for post infection (kickback). However, I wouldn’t 
trust it 96 hours after beginning of rain, unless the temperature was very low.

Typically, we use DH (degree-hours) to describe the post infection efficacy.

In Celsius, we consider LLS good for 250 DH, meaning 25 hours at 10°C. This is 
calculated once the infection is started.

If you calculate from the beginning of the rain, then about 400DH (40 hours at 
10, or 80 hours at 5°C)

hope this helps.

Vincent


Le 7 avr. 2016 à 12:56, David Kollas 
> a écrit :


Does anyone have enough experience with liquid lime sulfur to comment on it as 
an emergency
choice for application before rains have stopped during the current long 
infection period?  It is listed as
having 72-96 hours back-action in the New England Tree Fruits Management Guide.
In my particular situation, Half-Inch Green stage tissues were exposed many 
hours during two of
the previous three nights to 18-20 degrees F, and are probably extra sensitive 
to captan penetration
and phytotoxicity.

David Kollas
Kollas Orchard
Connecticut

___
apple-crop mailing list
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop






Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.
Microbiologiste/Phytopathologiste (pomiculture)

Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement
Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment

www.irda.qc.ca

Centre de recherche
335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est
Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 0G7

vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca

Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350
Cellulaire: 514-623-8275
Skype: VENTURIA
Télécopie: 450 653-1927

Verger expérimental
330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est
Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 4P6
Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375
Local pesticide: 450-653-7608


___
apple-crop mailing list
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

___
apple-crop mailing list
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

Re: [apple-crop] Liquid Lime Sulfur?

[Vincent Philion]

If you worry about Captan phytotoxicity, then you should also worry about LLS 
being phytotoxic under the same conditions. Liquid lime sulfur is a ’normal’ 
(ie not emergency) choice for post infection (kickback). However, I wouldn’t 
trust it 96 hours after beginning of rain, unless the temperature was very low.

Typically, we use DH (degree-hours) to describe the post infection efficacy.

In Celsius, we consider LLS good for 250 DH, meaning 25 hours at 10°C. This is 
calculated once the infection is started.

If you calculate from the beginning of the rain, then about 400DH (40 hours at 
10, or 80 hours at 5°C)

hope this helps.

Vincent


> Le 7 avr. 2016 à 12:56, David Kollas  a écrit :
> 
> 
>   Does anyone have enough experience with liquid lime sulfur to comment 
> on it as an emergency
> choice for application before rains have stopped during the current long 
> infection period?  It is listed as 
> having 72-96 hours back-action in the New England Tree Fruits Management 
> Guide.
>   In my particular situation, Half-Inch Green stage tissues were exposed 
> many hours during two of
> the previous three nights to 18-20 degrees F, and are probably extra 
> sensitive to captan penetration
> and phytotoxicity.
> 
> David Kollas
> Kollas Orchard
> Connecticut 
> 
> ___
> apple-crop mailing list
> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop






Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.
Microbiologiste/Phytopathologiste (pomiculture)

Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement
Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment

www.irda.qc.ca

Centre de recherche
335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est
Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 0G7

vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca

Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350
Cellulaire: 514-623-8275
Skype: VENTURIA
Télécopie: 450 653-1927 

Verger expérimental
330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est
Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 4P6
Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375
Local pesticide: 450-653-7608


___
apple-crop mailing list
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

Re: [apple-crop] Liquid Lime Sulfur?

[David A. Rosenberger]

Sorry if this is a duplication: I tried attaching Art Burrell’s discussion of 
sulfur sprays with the following message, but I think that made the message 
size too large for this list-serve.

I can only reprint what Dr. Art Burrell said in 1945 at the 90th Annual Meeting 
of the New York State Horticultural Society:  “Let us assume that, when the 
weather has cleared and the trees have blown dry, we find on Mills’ chart that 
they have been wet long enough to have permitted scab infection, and we still 
have trees that were not protected [by sulfur sprays discussed earlier]. This 
is where lime sulfur 2-100 comes in. We must wait until the leaves have become 
dry, because in a soaked condition, they are especially subject to burning.”


Dave Rosenberger, Plant Pathologist,
Hudson Valley Lab, P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528
   Cell: 845-594-3060


On Apr 7, 2016, at 12:56 PM, David Kollas 
> wrote:


Does anyone have enough experience with liquid lime sulfur to comment on it as 
an emergency
choice for application before rains have stopped during the current long 
infection period?  It is listed as
having 72-96 hours back-action in the New England Tree Fruits Management Guide.
In my particular situation, Half-Inch Green stage tissues were exposed many 
hours during two of
the previous three nights to 18-20 degrees F, and are probably extra sensitive 
to captan penetration
and phytotoxicity.

David Kollas
Kollas Orchard
Connecticut

___
apple-crop mailing list
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

___
apple-crop mailing list
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop

[apple-crop] Liquid Lime Sulfur?

[David Kollas]

Does anyone have enough experience with liquid lime sulfur to comment 
on it as an emergency
choice for application before rains have stopped during the current long 
infection period?  It is listed as 
having 72-96 hours back-action in the New England Tree Fruits Management Guide.
In my particular situation, Half-Inch Green stage tissues were exposed 
many hours during two of
 the previous three nights to 18-20 degrees F, and are probably extra sensitive 
to captan penetration
and phytotoxicity.

David Kollas
Kollas Orchard
Connecticut 

___
apple-crop mailing list
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop