[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
(did Rob mentions this instrument sometime?) I don't think so...which doesn't mean I didn't...can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning...getting old... Rob (I think) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
Frank Nordberg wrote: I got a reply from Britta Peterson at the Stockholm Stadmuseum. The reason why she was unable to answer right away turned out to be that the musueum don't actually own the cittern. They have it for a long time from another museum (the Swedish Historical Museum) and was returned to the owner recently. Fortunately, the Stockholm museum just got it back for a temporary exhibition so she was able to examine it for me anyway. The measurements are Length: 68 cm. Scale: 37 cm. She's unable to say whether the citterns has been modified. This does not seem to fit the instrument in Krafft's painting of course. However, I contacted Tor Kvarv, a friend of mine who's a painter and a art history expert. He told me that althoguh a late 18th C. portrait painter would have been expected to keep a high standard of realism, this would only apply to the person in the picture. "Props," like the cittern in Bellman's hands may well have been extensively modified to fit the composition of the painting. Even rendering the instrument at twice its real size would have been perfectly acceptable provided there was an artistic reason to do so. He couldn't, of course, say if there actually was an artistic reason without seeing the picture and his computer had broken down so I couldn't just email it to him. We've agreed to meet for a cup of coffee and some looks at various cittern pictures next time I'm in town. I suppose we'll just have to let this part of the discussion rest until then. Frank I've been rummaging around and found this image of Bellman (the same Krafft one but quite big and quite easy to see details) from an old LP: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Bellman.jpg You have surmised that the instrument might be a 'prop' or small instrument made to look bigger for artistic effect. Of course these are possibilities. The instrument in the picture is quite big with very deep sides. Bellman looks like he is resting his right hand thumb on the soundboard. The fingerboard looks slightly curved.It's not easy to be sure - but the lower strings seem to be paired. On the face of it, though, it looks like a man and an instrument he is familiar with. On the same LP there was a picture of a reconstruction of...I can't quite remember.. of just a cyster of the time.. but I think it was supposed to be Bellman's instrument. I always thought it was strange because the reconstruction looks nothing like the instrument in the Krafft picture. Here is a very poor quality scan of a photo of it. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/cyster1.jpg The LP was songs by Bellman sung by Martin Best accompanying himself on guitar and 'cyster' and presumably he was playing this instrument. On the subject of bell citterns I came across this image of one (again it's very poor quality). All I remember is that it was form a book written in Italian: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/bell.jpg The neck-body area on this and other bell citterns is (as far as I can see) very different form the neck-body area of the instrument in the Krafft painting. This one has 12 pegs. I suppose it's impossible to see (in this poor quality image) how the strings are disposed but I'd guess at pairing throughout. The other thing is the contrivance over the bottom of the soundboard, behind the bridge. It could be some later addition in line with some fashion of that time. But here is a similar - but different - contrivance on a Hamburger Cithrinchen: http://futuremuseum.co.uk/images/cache/Img5008S1000.jpg details here: http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/Collection.aspx/charles_van_raalte/Object/hamburger_cithrinchen/ (did Rob mentions this instrument sometime?) Stuart No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.4/1793 - Release Date: 16/11/2008 19:58 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
Stuart Walsh wrote: > A very interesting thread. Just expressing a few doubts here! Indeed. Hope everybody agrees, cause this may go on for a while. ;-) > It would be really interesting to see some scans of the chorales form > the Moravian Archives. Me too. That would be really helpful. > Maybe...?. Do we even know if the nut is original? One of the questions I asked the Stockholm museum is whether there are any signs of the cittern having been rebuilt at some time. I got a reply from them btw. They'll be happy to help but it may take them a while to gather the data I requested. So for now we'll just have to wait and see. [the Krafft painting] > But a cithrinchen is a small instrument with a thin body (like other > seventeenth century citterns). The thing that Bellman holds in the > painting is much, much bigger with a really deep body. Yes. This is one of the four reasons why I stipulate there might have been two different bell citterns, the small citrinchen and a considerably alrger one that may have been called a citrinchen or zither. > Frank, I don't know about this. Which cithrinchen tuning? I've seen > references (Groves, I'm pretty sure) to the maj7 tuning in C and F and > now, thanks to Rocky, to Bb. And you mentioned another weird one. So: do > we really know what size the Storm cittern would have been? No but assuming the tuning given is correct (another issue we need to investigate further), it must have been small. The scale length can't have been more than 36 cm (14") and probably less. Regarding the various tunings of the Hamburger citrinchen, Michel's article which I referred to earlier, is quite informative - although less so than some of his similar articles on other German cittern variants. Perhaps I should have gone into more details. I understand not everybody here are comfortable reading articles in German: 1) A manuscript, started in 1664 and continued until at least 1680, with music in tablature for "Hamburger citrinchen" gives two different tunings a fourth apart: c-e-g-b-e' f-a-c'-e'-a' This is the earliest source of insformation about the tuning. (Incidentally, the two different tunings here is another of the four reasons behind my theory of the citrinchen as a family rather than as a single type/size of isntrument). 2) In 1718 Johann Arnold Vockerodt mentions three different tunings: f-a-c'-e'-a' (same as the highest 1664 tuning) d-g-c'-e'-a' f-b-d'-f'-b' 3) In 1912 Georg Kinsky conluded that the Hamburger citrinchen was tuned like a baroque guitar: A-d-g-b-e'. There's very little evidence to support this though, just a quote from a 1689 book by Jacob Kremberg stating that a five course "Hamburger Citringen" can be used as a substitute for a guitar. Hoever, it is interesting to note that the four course d-g-b-e' cittern tuning was indeed known in Thüringen around the mid 18th C. 4) In 1992 Dieter Kirsch and Lenz Meierott suggested that some of the later pieces in the 1664 manuscript may actually have been written for a tuning as high as b-d'-f'-a'-d'' If I understand Michel correctly, this suggestion was based on some string gauge specs written on f. 89 of the ms and may not be valid if it turns out the citrinchen did indeed come in different sizes. It is however interesting that the tuning they came up with is the same as the one given for the Storm ms. [The lute-cittern] > Any more details on this? Sure: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/zist_laute.htm > Here's a picture from the 19th century. Perhaps a lute-cittern, in > duet with an alpine horn!? Most interesting. I'm not quite sure if the instrument is supposed to be a lute-cittern or just a regular lute though. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
A very interesting thread. Just expressing a few doubts here! The Moravian Archives in Betlehem, PA. They have a c. 1750 book with chorales in tablature for that tuning and also a lute-cittern from the same time period. Andrew Rutherford posted a message about it on this group about a month ago and he and Lanie Graf have added quite a bit of information about the Moravian cittern tradition at the ning, including pictures of the instrument mentioned and photos of a painting that includes two ladies playing lute-citterns. It would be really interesting to see some scans of the chorales form the Moravian Archives. I wonder if Lanie Graf can be persuaded? I don't see this...yet. Certainly the instrument has 11 pegs but is there any reason to think that the strings were arranged in four doubles and 3 singles? Sorry, that was a typo. It should be the other way round: four double courses and three single basses. It's fairly clear if you look at the nut on the large photo. Maybe...?. Do we even know if the nut is original? From what can be seen in the Krafft painting, this instrument doesn't really look anything like a cithrinchen? The painting doesn't show the most distinctive part of the instrument - the tail end - but the shape of the part we do see is consistent with the preserved Bellman cittern and with the only Hamburger citrinchen at the Studia-Instromentorum site: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0639.htm However, now that you mention it, the *details* in the painting does fit the surviving Bellman instrument! The fretboard, the lining and the rosette are all very different and the cleaner scan I posted first: http://hem.passagen.se/iblis/bellman.jpg seems to show twelve tuning pegs! But a cithrinchen is a small instrument with a thin body (like other seventeenth century citterns). The thing that Bellman holds in the painting is much, much bigger with a really deep body. I'm ready to be convinced, but it doesn't look anything like a cithrinchen to me. This is really strange. It is commonly accepted knowledge among Bellman experts that he only played two instruments throughout his lifetime (the other one was a theorbised cittern with extended bass strings) and that the cittern in the Krafft painting is the one preserved at the Stockholm museum. What does this mean? Is the Stockholm cittern a fake? Is the painting *that* inexact? Did Bellman actually own more than the two citterns we know of? Did he just borrow somebidy else's cittern when he posed for the painting? Looks like we have to challenge a century-old well established historical fact here. All things considered, I think we can be 99.9 percent certain that it was common during the 18th C. to fingerpick the Hamburger citrinchen. Even if it was tiny? Good point. First, I wasn't thinking only of the common small Hamburger citrincehnn but also this still hypothetical larger bell cittern. I should have been more precise there. But let's see: We know of other small historical stringed instruments (renaissance citterns and 17th C. mandolins/mandolas) being played fingerstyle so the suggestion may not be quite as drastic as it may seem at first sight. At the moment it seems as if the Storm ms. was written for - if not a Hamburger citrinchen - at least a cittern of the same size and tuning. I think we all agree the music there has to be played fingerstyle. Frank, I don't know about this. Which cithrinchen tuning? I've seen references (Groves, I'm pretty sure) to the maj7 tuning in C and F and now, thanks to Rocky, to Bb. And you mentioned another weird one. So: do we really know what size the Storm cittern would have been? Bellman learned to play on the cittern his grandfather had bought in Hamburg - I think we can be fairly certain of that. Even if he did switch to a different instrument later, it's not very likely he'd change his playing style. Then again, what *did* grandpa get in Hamburg? How likely is it that a 18th C. singer/singwriter would perform only accompanied with something roughly equivalent to a modern mandolin in pitch and size? The 'Moravian' lute-bellied cittern isn't a cithrinchen. No but the lute-cittern was designed around 1700 as a hybrid between a cittern and a lute. Any more details on this? This 'lute-cittern' concept is completely new to me. I know of lots of lute-bellied citterns (English guitars and some French cistres) but these are from much later (1750s and onwards). Here's a picture from the 19th century.Perhaps a lute-cittern, in duet with an alpine horn!? http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/cyster.jpg Stuart It was almost certainly based on a specific existing cittern tradition and the evidence so far indicates that this was the Hamburger citrinchen (or at least a close relative). The Moravian info suggests the two shared the same tuning and, according to Michel, Gdansk - a ci
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
Stuart Walsh wrote: Just to be absolutely clear about this connection - what was it that linked the GCEGBE tuning with this lute-bellied cittern? (I've literally lost the thread on this one!) The Moravian Archives in Betlehem, PA. They have a c. 1750 book with chorales in tablature for that tuning and also a lute-cittern from the same time period. Andrew Rutherford posted a message about it on this group about a month ago and he and Lanie Graf have added quite a bit of information about the Moravian cittern tradition at the ning, including pictures of the instrument mentioned and photos of a painting that includes two ladies playing lute-citterns. I don't see this...yet. Certainly the instrument has 11 pegs but is there any reason to think that the strings were arranged in four doubles and 3 singles? Sorry, that was a typo. It should be the other way round: four double courses and three single basses. It's fairly clear if you look at the nut on the large photo. From what can be seen in the Krafft painting, this instrument doesn't really look anything like a cithrinchen? The painting doesn't show the most distinctive part of the instrument - the tail end - but the shape of the part we do see is consistent with the preserved Bellman cittern and with the only Hamburger citrinchen at the Studia-Instromentorum site: http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/ZISTER/0639.htm However, now that you mention it, the *details* in the painting does fit the surviving Bellman instrument! The fretboard, the lining and the rosette are all very different and the cleaner scan I posted first: http://hem.passagen.se/iblis/bellman.jpg seems to show twelve tuning pegs! This is really strange. It is commonly accepted knowledge among Bellman experts that he only played two instruments throughout his lifetime (the other one was a theorbised cittern with extended bass strings) and that the cittern in the Krafft painting is the one preserved at the Stockholm museum. What does this mean? Is the Stockholm cittern a fake? Is the painting *that* inexact? Did Bellman actually own more than the two citterns we know of? Did he just borrow somebidy else's cittern when he posed for the painting? Looks like we have to challenge a century-old well established historical fact here. All things considered, I think we can be 99.9 percent certain that it was common during the 18th C. to fingerpick the Hamburger citrinchen. Even if it was tiny? Good point. First, I wasn't thinking only of the common small Hamburger citrincehnn but also this still hypothetical larger bell cittern. I should have been more precise there. But let's see: We know of other small historical stringed instruments (renaissance citterns and 17th C. mandolins/mandolas) being played fingerstyle so the suggestion may not be quite as drastic as it may seem at first sight. At the moment it seems as if the Storm ms. was written for - if not a Hamburger citrinchen - at least a cittern of the same size and tuning. I think we all agree the music there has to be played fingerstyle. Bellman learned to play on the cittern his grandfather had bought in Hamburg - I think we can be fairly certain of that. Even if he did switch to a different instrument later, it's not very likely he'd change his playing style. Then again, what *did* grandpa get in Hamburg? How likely is it that a 18th C. singer/singwriter would perform only accompanied with something roughly equivalent to a modern mandolin in pitch and size? The 'Moravian' lute-bellied cittern isn't a cithrinchen. No but the lute-cittern was designed around 1700 as a hybrid between a cittern and a lute. It was almost certainly based on a specific existing cittern tradition and the evidence so far indicates that this was the Hamburger citrinchen (or at least a close relative). The Moravian info suggests the two shared the same tuning and, according to Michel, Gdansk - a city with strong connections to Hamburg - was the geographical center of the lute-cittern. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[CITTERN] Re: Bellman, Storm, Moravia and the Hamburger cittrinchen (and the lute-cittern too)
Frank Nordberg wrote: Starting yet another thread on this topic... ;-) I've had a closer look at Bellman's cittern and also re-read Michel's article on the Hamburger citrinchen and here is what I've found so far: 1. Tuning The "Moravian" GCEGBE tuning Andrew Rutherford asked about, is mentioned by Michel as one of the two known 17th C. citrinchen tunings (only of course as a five course tuning without the low G). I suppose the exact tuning would be G-c-e-g-b-e' since neither an octave higher nor lower would make much sense in this context. (The Moravian instrument turns out to be a lute-cittern. Until now there doesn't seem to have been any information about its tuning. Establishing a connection between it and the Hamburger citrinchen is a noticeable achievement. Thanks Andy and Lanie!) Just to be absolutely clear about this connection - what was it that linked the GCEGBE tuning with this lute-bellied cittern? (I've literally lost the thread on this one!) Michel also mentions a five course variant of Storm's (Bb-)F-bb-d'-f'-a'-d'' tuning - not a note lower but a seventh *higher* than the (G)CEGBE tuning! The other tunings mentioned by Michel are: f-a-c'-e'-a' (the other 17th C. tuning) d-g-c'-e'-a' (18th C., same intervals as a baroque guitar) f-bb-d'-f'-bb' (18th C. - that one is *really* weird) The curious open maj7 tunings of the bell cittern opens up for some wild speculations about the possible origins of various sittern tuning but that'll have to wait. Just playing the few pieces from the Storm MS, in the maj 7 tuning and in the key of the tuning it makes some voice leading at final cadences very straightforward and satisfying.(So maybe the instrument was mainly played in the home key?) --- 2. Courses There definitely were bell citterns with more than five courses! I found a photo of Bellman's cittern: http://www.stadsmuseum.stockholm.se/samlingar.php?artikel=17 larger view: http://www.stadsmuseum.stockholm.se/samlingar.php?artikel=17&bild=1 No question about painters being unable to count tuning pegs anymore. The instrument certainly has seven courses - four double and three single. I don't see this...yet. Certainly the instrument has 11 pegs but is there any reason to think that the strings were arranged in four doubles and 3 singles? Not from this picture? I don't think I've ever (yet) seen evidence of doubled top strings and single basses on citterns before English guittars/French cistres from the 1750s. (Digression: it also has a scalloped fretboard - is there actually a connection between the "sawblade shape" fretboards of renaissance citterns and the scalloped fretboards of 20th C. Germand and Swedish lutes?) --- 3. Sizes The rather extreme differences between the various citrinchen tunings seems to suggest that the instrument came in at least two distincitvely different sizes. I understand that idea is a new one(?) (still haven't finished doing my Hamburger citrinchen homework..) The cittern Bellman holds in Krafft's painting (http://www.bellman.net/krafft.html) still looks much larger than a regular Hamburger citrinchen and now that we know the instrument is presented anatomically correctly (that is: it actually has that many strings), the painting becomes a much more credible source. I have written Stockholms Stadsmuseum asking for more information about the size of the cittern. Hopefully they'll reply. Right now my working hypothesis is that there was two different bell citterns, the fairly well-known Hamburger citrinchen (scale length c. 15-16 cm - c. 14") and a larger one that perhps should be called the Hamburger cister. Scale length might have been similar to the lute-cittern, that is about 47 cm (18.5"), possibly a bit longer. From what can be seen in the Krafft painting, this instrument doesn't really look anything like a cithrinchen? --- 4. Playing technique The painting of Bellman seems to show him playing fingerstyle. The Storm ms. is clearly written for fingerstyle playing. We still don't know what kind of cittern the music was written for but with the tuning and stringing issue sorted out, the Hamburger citrinchen is definitely the favourite option. The Moravian painting posted by Lanie Graf at the cittern ning shows lute-citterns played fignerstyle. If the lute-cittern got its tuning from the bell-cittern, it's likely the playing technique came from there too. All things considered, I think we can be 99.9 percent certain that it was common during the 18th C. to fingerpick the Hamburger citrinchen. Even if it was tiny? Bellman's instrument (in the Krafft painting) is not obviously a cithrinchen, even though he did also have a cithrinchen. The 'Moravian' lute-bellied cittern isn't a cithrinchen. There are some puzzling/anomolous lute-bellied citterns around which have probably had a varied history (been adapted in various ways over time). Stuart Frank
