Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Mark Thomas ma...@apache.org wrote: On 23/09/2010 08:37, Grant Ingersoll wrote: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their day jobs? Tricky. For me, I started working on open source as a hobby. I really enjoyed my previous (non-OSS) job but it is hard to beat being paid to do your hobby. I feel the same. Once you get too involved in an OSS project (specially as a committer) it's really hard to get back working on non-OSS stuff. Several reasons for this: - you learn a lot more when doing OSS: 1) you need to do a lot more research 2) since your work is public, before a commit, you need to review your changes with much more detail, to ensure your code is of the highest quality 3) since your code is exposed to the world, often someone else might comment on it giving suggestions about how to improve it - the community - you have many people reporting bugs, contributing with ideas or with code - again, you learn a lot from this - finding a new job is easier - since you work on OSS, every potential employer can actually see what you have exactly done (code, ideas discussed in the mailing lists, comments on JIRA, etc), unlike when you work on proprietary code. regards, - I can see this could be true for other folks that made the some hobby - work transition. Whether it applies more widely? Don't know. Has anyone seen _independent_ studies that say one way or the other? Afraid not. Mark - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org -- Filipe David Manana, fdman...@gmail.com, fdman...@apache.org Reasonable men adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable men adapt the world to themselves. That's why all progress depends on unreasonable men. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On Sep 23, 2010, at 10:15 PM, Henri Yandell wrote: I've not seen any studies. I have a slightly different view as developing is only part of what I do nowadays... so I'll share it/bore you with it :) The source isn't the only part, Open applies to a lot more in your standard OSS project: * I like that I can identify solutions and bugs through a web search and not by having to contact technical support. * I like that my choice of the product doesn't start with a contract negotiation - OSS is generally take-it-or-leave-it licensing, yet not an unfair license. However, this is often replaced by an internal negotiation w/ company lawyers over what licenses are acceptable. * I like that the 'vendor' and myself as the 'customer' largely want the same thing - for the product to be better, with less bugs and more features. Summarizing - In Open Source the relationship is not antagonistic. It's not perfect, the project don't want to add my special ideas or agree that with my view of a bug, but generally I know the vendor and I aren't in a battle with the vendor wanting more money and myself wanting more value. There's less politics. Great points! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Grant Ingersoll gsing...@apache.org wrote: One of the things I've noticed in my day job, which is admittedly self-selecting since I work for a company that engages with people deploying open source, is that I routinely hear, how shall I say it, more enjoyment from the developers in their work as compared to the old days when they worked on a proprietary equivalent, and I think it even holds true when working on troubleshooting engagements where something is broken. Since, most of us here likely work on open source, I'm curious as to what others think? Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their day jobs? And I don't just mean committers/contributors here, I mean people who are using the software to solve some bigger problem for their company and who may never do anything more than ask a question on a mailing list from time to time. Has anyone seen _independent_ studies that say one way or the other? (References please.) I do think, that some of the answer depends on the quality of the software they are working on (just as it likely does when working on proprietary software), so perhaps I should separate out what could be called hobbyist open source versus open source that has a large community of followers (regardless of license) like Linux, ASF projects, Eclipse, etc. Therefore, assuming two different pieces of software, one being proprietary and one being open, both of which will solve the problem, are developers who solve the problem with open source happier in their job? At any rate, my motivation for asking is that I'm writing an article on some thoughts in this area spurred by something a client told me (at a very old, established company, mind you) about why they wanted to get the word out that they were using open source: they felt it would help them attract and retain developers b/c they would be more satisfied in their jobs b/c they got to work on innovative open source technologies. I have not seen a reason that applies specifically in geographically challenged environments, it is that of solitude. By this I mean that when you are the only expert in a given technology or product in miles around, it is not easy to have meaningful dialogues and learn, boast or just have insider jokes with alike people. This is more common than it looks, and Open Source projects and technologies make easier that your career keeps developing because, literally, you always have people smarter than you on the other side of the (virtual) tether... So there is a trend to cluster together for people in the same trade, and Open Source is a very natural way to jam or rehearse technical abilities Regards Santiago Thanks for your insights, Grant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
One of the things I've noticed in my day job, which is admittedly self-selecting since I work for a company that engages with people deploying open source, is that I routinely hear, how shall I say it, more enjoyment from the developers in their work as compared to the old days when they worked on a proprietary equivalent, and I think it even holds true when working on troubleshooting engagements where something is broken. Since, most of us here likely work on open source, I'm curious as to what others think? Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their day jobs? And I don't just mean committers/contributors here, I mean people who are using the software to solve some bigger problem for their company and who may never do anything more than ask a question on a mailing list from time to time. Has anyone seen _independent_ studies that say one way or the other? (References please.) I do think, that some of the answer depends on the quality of the software they are working on (just as it likely does when working on proprietary software), so perhaps I should separate out what could be called hobbyist open source versus open source that has a large community of followers (regardless of license) like Linux, ASF projects, Eclipse, etc. Therefore, assuming two different pieces of software, one being proprietary and one being open, both of which will solve the problem, are developers who solve the problem with open source happier in their job? At any rate, my motivation for asking is that I'm writing an article on some thoughts in this area spurred by something a client told me (at a very old, established company, mind you) about why they wanted to get the word out that they were using open source: they felt it would help them attract and retain developers b/c they would be more satisfied in their jobs b/c they got to work on innovative open source technologies. Thanks for your insights, Grant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
Well, I know I personally feel this way! I've worked on closed source search engines a good while, and now Lucene/Solr for a good while, and I know which one makes me happier ;) And I suspect that's a good strategy by this client of yours.. I know once I finally have to move away from my sponsor, being free to work in open-source will be a strong requirement for whatever I do next. As for real references, I think this video is delightfully relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc It summarizes research by economists into what it is that makes people happy, motivates them, in their work, and it ties this nicely into open-source. Mike On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Grant Ingersoll gsing...@apache.org wrote: One of the things I've noticed in my day job, which is admittedly self-selecting since I work for a company that engages with people deploying open source, is that I routinely hear, how shall I say it, more enjoyment from the developers in their work as compared to the old days when they worked on a proprietary equivalent, and I think it even holds true when working on troubleshooting engagements where something is broken. Since, most of us here likely work on open source, I'm curious as to what others think? Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their day jobs? And I don't just mean committers/contributors here, I mean people who are using the software to solve some bigger problem for their company and who may never do anything more than ask a question on a mailing list from time to time. Has anyone seen _independent_ studies that say one way or the other? (References please.) I do think, that some of the answer depends on the quality of the software they are working on (just as it likely does when working on proprietary software), so perhaps I should separate out what could be called hobbyist open source versus open source that has a large community of followers (regardless of license) like Linux, ASF projects, Eclipse, etc. Therefore, assuming two different pieces of software, one being proprietary and one being open, both of which will solve the problem, are developers who solve the problem with open source happier in their job? At any rate, my motivation for asking is that I'm writing an article on some thoughts in this area spurred by something a client told me (at a very old, established company, mind you) about why they wanted to get the word out that they were using open source: they felt it would help them attract and retain developers b/c they would be more satisfied in their jobs b/c they got to work on innovative open source technologies. Thanks for your insights, Grant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
Le 23/09/10 17:37, Grant Ingersoll a écrit : One of the things I've noticed in my day job, which is admittedly self-selecting since I work for a company that engages with people deploying open source, is that I routinely hear, how shall I say it, more enjoyment from the developers in their work as compared to the old days when they worked on a proprietary equivalent, and I think it even holds true when working on troubleshooting engagements where something is broken. Since, most of us here likely work on open source, I'm curious as to what others think? Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their day jobs? And I don't just mean committers/contributors here, I mean people who are using the software to solve some bigger problem for their company and who may never do anything more than ask a question on a mailing list from time to time. Has anyone seen _independent_ studies that say one way or the other? (References please.) I do think, that some of the answer depends on the quality of the software they are working on (just as it likely does when working on proprietary software), so perhaps I should separate out what could be called hobbyist open source versus open source that has a large community of followers (regardless of license) like Linux, ASF projects, Eclipse, etc. Therefore, assuming two different pieces of software, one being proprietary and one being open, both of which will solve the problem, are developers who solve the problem with open source happier in their job? At any rate, my motivation for asking is that I'm writing an article on some thoughts in this area spurred by something a client told me (at a very old, established company, mind you) about why they wanted to get the word out that they were using open source: they felt it would help them attract and retain developers b/c they would be more satisfied in their jobs b/c they got to work on innovative open source technologies. Can't point you to any formal research, but give some thougths based on personal experience. May look like boring evidence for the many opensource old-timers here, but it could be that with time we forgot what brought us here. A large part of it is related to community. This word means quite different things depending on the point of view (company or employee) or the kind of involvement you have with the open source software. As an employee and a simple user, participating at any level to the community of an opensource product you're using in your day job means you meet people using the same product, possibly on similar projects, and can ask questions, share experiences, etc. Seems quite natural for us but it's a life-changer for people that can suddenly escape their cubicle and discuss about subjects that are closely related to their work, but for which they probably can't find anybody in their physical environment they can talk to about. So you basically find like-minded people you can share things with. And this like-minded thing is even more important when you become an active contributor, since you're most probably -- at first -- the only contributor in your company. Other committers become your co-workers for something that you can't share with any of your real physical co-workers. This helps finding a lot of excitement and energy for something that could well otherwise be just a boring job fighting with a stubborn proprietary product for which you only have well organized but inefficient support. Opening your cubicle to the outside world also forces you to consider all the things you don't know and have to learn. Can be frightening for some, but also a way to greatly improve their skills for many, and directly impact their project's quality. The developer improves, and the company wins. This reminds me a blog post of mine 7 years ago (eek!) -- see [1] Another important point is the availability of source code. In modern IDEs like Eclipse, you just have to ctrl-click to open a class/module's source code. As a developer, it's incredibly frustrating to hit the no source code available barrier when using a proprietary product and just make assumptions on how a given module works when things don't behave as expected (first thing I do is to decompile it :-) but it doesn't always give good results). It makes you more confident since you're building on something you can dive into and understand, if not fix yourself. I won't go into the benefits for a company, that you certainly know well: no lock-in to a single provider, reduced acquisition costs, long-time maintainance/availability because the product is not tied to a company's life/strategy, etc, etc. Hope this helps, Sylvain [1] http://bluxte.net/musings/2003/02/05/are-we-three-eyed -- Sylvain Wallez - http://bluxte.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On Sep 23, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Michael McCandless wrote: Well, I know I personally feel this way! I've worked on closed source search engines a good while, and now Lucene/Solr for a good while, and I know which one makes me happier ;) I hear ya. The interesting thing for me, is it isn't just about contributing to open source, either, though. It's about working with it, even alongside/with proprietary solutions. At the end of the day, I want to choose what is best to solve the problem not have it decided for me b/c that's what I happen to have a license for. And I suspect that's a good strategy by this client of yours.. I know once I finally have to move away from my sponsor, being free to work in open-source will be a strong requirement for whatever I do next. As for real references, I think this video is delightfully relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc Very cool and well worth watching! -Grant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On 9/23/10 5:37 PM, Grant Ingersoll wrote: One of the things I've noticed in my day job, which is admittedly self-selecting since I work for a company that engages with people deploying open source, is that I routinely hear, how shall I say it, more enjoyment from the developers in their work as compared to the old days when they worked on a proprietary equivalent, and I think it even holds true when working on troubleshooting engagements where something is broken. Since, most of us here likely work on open source, I'm curious as to what others think? Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their day jobs? And I don't just mean committers/contributors here, I mean people who are using the software to solve some bigger problem for their company and who may never do anything more than ask a question on a mailing list from time to time. Has anyone seen _independent_ studies that say one way or the other? (References please.) I do think, that some of the answer depends on the quality of the software they are working on (just as it likely does when working on proprietary software), so perhaps I should separate out what could be called hobbyist open source versus open source that has a large community of followers (regardless of license) like Linux, ASF projects, Eclipse, etc. Therefore, assuming two different pieces of software, one being proprietary and one being open, both of which will solve the problem, are developers who solve the problem with open source happier in their job? At any rate, my motivation for asking is that I'm writing an article on some thoughts in this area spurred by something a client told me (at a very old, established company, mind you) about why they wanted to get the word out that they were using open source: they felt it would help them attract and retain developers b/c they would be more satisfied in their jobs b/c they got to work on innovative open source technologies. Interesting questions. Being somehow an old-timer developer now (45 yo, damn !), I can tell you that working on OSS makes me happier by at least an order of magnitude :) Everything Sylvain said are very valid points, and I share his opinion. But I see also extra advantages, probably more related to the fact I'm working on an ASF project : - First of all, and it may perfectly well be specific to France, a country where people value diplomas, and other things like 'he wrote a book on the subject !', being an ASF developer help you to get a social status in the development team you are working in. In other words, you are likely to be a star (that always puzzled me because I'm not better than I was before starting working on an OSS project, or slightly (thanks to what I have learned at the ASF !), and also because I was certainly not better than many of my co-workers who are not involved in OSS). - As a direct consequence of the previous fact, you don't have to *prove* yourself when switching from company A to company B. And that's a relief ! In this world, people are extra cautious (again, may be a cultural bias in France, where hiring someone can take longer than firing someone, assuming that it takes usually 3 months at least to fire someone ;) - Another consequence is that you can still be a developer even if you are more than 28 yo, which is the deadline here : if you are not a project manager at 28, you are probably a loser (anyway, those days, we don't develop in France, we 'manage' developers - well, Indians or youngies - ) - As France is not specially known as a country where we develop software (with a few exceptions), being an OSS developer gives you an opportunity to work on interesting pieces of code, instead of doing code reviews or managing schedules. - Last, not least, developers have a very strong ego. It's sometime painful to have to fight with other developers to push your - valid - point, and being able to relax and use your 'OSS developer' super power to shutdown an ego fight is frankly a relief. Of course, as soon as the other peeps find out that you are not any better, this competitive advantage will vanish, but up to a point, it will spare you a hell lot of energy ! Ok, take all those elements with a grain of salt, but I have experienced each one of them in previous positions for various companies (big or small). And it helped to get focused on code instead of paperwork and useless 'social interactions' (disputes, or anything not related to what you are paid for : developing). Last, not least, OSS is about developing the best possible software, when closed source is about developing the software that has been sold to the client. Sometime, you even discover what has been sold when you are facing the client who complains about a missing feature you don't even know about... I have once sat down in front of a computer with a program crashing because the code wasn't even terminated, with the client beside me
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On Sep 23, 2010, at 1:07 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny wrote: On 9/23/10 5:37 PM, Grant Ingersoll wrote: One of the things I've noticed in my day job, which is admittedly self-selecting since I work for a company that engages with people deploying open source, is that I routinely hear, how shall I say it, more enjoyment from the developers in their work as compared to the old days when they worked on a proprietary equivalent, and I think it even holds true when working on troubleshooting engagements where something is broken. Since, most of us here likely work on open source, I'm curious as to what others think? Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their day jobs? And I don't just mean committers/contributors here, I mean people who are using the software to solve some bigger problem for their company and who may never do anything more than ask a question on a mailing list from time to time. Has anyone seen _independent_ studies that say one way or the other? (References please.) I do think, that some of the answer depends on the quality of the software they are working on (just as it likely does when working on proprietary software), so perhaps I should separate out what could be called hobbyist open source versus open source that has a large community of followers (regardless of license) like Linux, ASF projects, Eclipse, etc. Therefore, assuming two different pieces of software, one being proprietary and one being open, both of which will solve the problem, are developers who solve the problem with open source happier in their job? At any rate, my motivation for asking is that I'm writing an article on some thoughts in this area spurred by something a client told me (at a very old, established company, mind you) about why they wanted to get the word out that they were using open source: they felt it would help them attract and retain developers b/c they would be more satisfied in their jobs b/c they got to work on innovative open source technologies. Interesting questions. Being somehow an old-timer developer now (45 yo, damn !), I can tell you that working on OSS makes me happier by at least an order of magnitude :) Everything Sylvain said are very valid points, and I share his opinion. But I see also extra advantages, probably more related to the fact I'm working on an ASF project : - First of all, and it may perfectly well be specific to France, a country where people value diplomas, and other things like 'he wrote a book on the subject !', being an ASF developer help you to get a social status in the development team you are working in. In other words, you are likely to be a star (that always puzzled me because I'm not better than I was before starting working on an OSS project, or slightly (thanks to what I have learned at the ASF !), and also because I was certainly not better than many of my co-workers who are not involved in OSS). I was just talking with a friend yesterday, and fellow committer, who said he is a much better programmer since contributing. Of course, it makes sense. If your underwear is on display for all to see, you sure better make sure it is clean! - As a direct consequence of the previous fact, you don't have to *prove* yourself when switching from company A to company B. And that's a relief ! In this world, people are extra cautious (again, may be a cultural bias in France, where hiring someone can take longer than firing someone, assuming that it takes usually 3 months at least to fire someone ;) - Another consequence is that you can still be a developer even if you are more than 28 yo, which is the deadline here : if you are not a project manager at 28, you are probably a loser (anyway, those days, we don't develop in France, we 'manage' developers - well, Indians or youngies - ) - As France is not specially known as a country where we develop software (with a few exceptions), being an OSS developer gives you an opportunity to work on interesting pieces of code, instead of doing code reviews or managing schedules. - Last, not least, developers have a very strong ego. It's sometime painful to have to fight with other developers to push your - valid - point, and being able to relax and use your 'OSS developer' super power to shutdown an ego fight is frankly a relief. Of course, as soon as the other peeps find out that you are not any better, this competitive advantage will vanish, but up to a point, it will spare you a hell lot of energy ! Interesting... Hadn't heard that one before. -Grant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On 9/23/10 7:13 PM, Grant Ingersoll wrote: On Sep 23, 2010, at 1:07 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny wrote: But I see also extra advantages, probably more related to the fact I'm working on an ASF project : - First of all, and it may perfectly well be specific to France, a country where people value diplomas, and other things like 'he wrote a book on the subject !', being an ASF developer help you to get a social status in the development team you are working in. In other words, you are likely to be a star (that always puzzled me because I'm not better than I was before starting working on an OSS project, or slightly (thanks to what I have learned at the ASF !), and also because I was certainly not better than many of my co-workers who are not involved in OSS). I was just talking with a friend yesterday, and fellow committer, who said he is a much better programmer since contributing. Of course, it makes sense. If your underwear is on display for all to see, you sure better make sure it is clean! Let me pick a better word than 'better' to express exactly what I had in mind when I wrote my sentence : 'talented'. Sure, I learned a lot and I'm a better coder now, but that does not make me more talented :) -- Regards, Cordialement, Emmanuel Lécharny www.iktek.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On 23/09/2010 08:37, Grant Ingersoll wrote: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their day jobs? Tricky. For me, I started working on open source as a hobby. I really enjoyed my previous (non-OSS) job but it is hard to beat being paid to do your hobby. I can see this could be true for other folks that made the some hobby - work transition. Whether it applies more widely? Don't know. Has anyone seen _independent_ studies that say one way or the other? Afraid not. Mark - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On 9/23/2010 10:37 AM, Grant Ingersoll wrote: At any rate, my motivation for asking is that I'm writing an article on some thoughts in this area spurred by something a client told me (at a very old, established company, mind you) about why they wanted to get the word out that they were using open source: they felt it would help them attract and retain developers b/c they would be more satisfied in their jobs b/c they got to work on innovative open source technologies. I'd actually think that your client is on the mark, and that the mythology of working on open source is stronger than the actual variance, but where there is perception, there is benefit to advertising their participation in open source for prospective candidates. Many of the real satisfaction questions to an engineer have more to do with how dirty they get their hands into code vs. architecture vs. management, what their working environment is like, relationships to peers and mgmt, and similar factors. Keep in mind that some engineers are more attracted to sub-sub-sub-basement top-secret work and the thought of having to participate in an open and public environment may be terrifying, or simply uninteresting to them. If you really were to sample developers, I would think that how much using open source also plays into satisfaction. Simply being able to dig into the flaws or implementation details in my support libraries was always the biggest indicator of my job satisfaction, irrespective of whether I contributed back or not. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On 23/09/2010 20:18, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote: On 9/23/2010 10:37 AM, Grant Ingersoll wrote: At any rate, my motivation for asking is that I'm writing an article on some thoughts in this area spurred by something a client told me (at a very old, established company, mind you) about why they wanted to get the word out that they were using open source: they felt it would help them attract and retain developers b/c they would be more satisfied in their jobs b/c they got to work on innovative open source technologies. This tweet from @mathplourde one persons opinion on it: #UF #Sakai migration: Ability to fix bugs is great, we have had open tickets with WebCT for over 5 years. #ltc0910 (Sakai is an open source Virtual Learning Environment, WebCT is a closed source one) Ross - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
I've not seen any studies. I have a slightly different view as developing is only part of what I do nowadays... so I'll share it/bore you with it :) The source isn't the only part, Open applies to a lot more in your standard OSS project: * I like that I can identify solutions and bugs through a web search and not by having to contact technical support. * I like that my choice of the product doesn't start with a contract negotiation - OSS is generally take-it-or-leave-it licensing, yet not an unfair license. * I like that the 'vendor' and myself as the 'customer' largely want the same thing - for the product to be better, with less bugs and more features. Summarizing - In Open Source the relationship is not antagonistic. It's not perfect, the project don't want to add my special ideas or agree that with my view of a bug, but generally I know the vendor and I aren't in a battle with the vendor wanting more money and myself wanting more value. There's less politics. Hen On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Grant Ingersoll gsing...@apache.org wrote: One of the things I've noticed in my day job, which is admittedly self-selecting since I work for a company that engages with people deploying open source, is that I routinely hear, how shall I say it, more enjoyment from the developers in their work as compared to the old days when they worked on a proprietary equivalent, and I think it even holds true when working on troubleshooting engagements where something is broken. Since, most of us here likely work on open source, I'm curious as to what others think? Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their day jobs? And I don't just mean committers/contributors here, I mean people who are using the software to solve some bigger problem for their company and who may never do anything more than ask a question on a mailing list from time to time. Has anyone seen _independent_ studies that say one way or the other? (References please.) I do think, that some of the answer depends on the quality of the software they are working on (just as it likely does when working on proprietary software), so perhaps I should separate out what could be called hobbyist open source versus open source that has a large community of followers (regardless of license) like Linux, ASF projects, Eclipse, etc. Therefore, assuming two different pieces of software, one being proprietary and one being open, both of which will solve the problem, are developers who solve the problem with open source happier in their job? At any rate, my motivation for asking is that I'm writing an article on some thoughts in this area spurred by something a client told me (at a very old, established company, mind you) about why they wanted to get the word out that they were using open source: they felt it would help them attract and retain developers b/c they would be more satisfied in their jobs b/c they got to work on innovative open source technologies. Thanks for your insights, Grant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Grant Ingersoll gsing...@apache.org wrote: One of the things I've noticed in my day job, which is admittedly self-selecting since I work for a company that engages with people deploying open source, is that I routinely hear, how shall I say it, more enjoyment from the developers in their work as compared to the old days when they worked on a proprietary equivalent, and I think it even holds true when working on troubleshooting engagements where something is broken. Since, most of us here likely work on open source, I'm curious as to what others think? Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their day jobs? And I don't just mean committers/contributors here, I mean people who are using the software to solve some bigger problem for their company and who may never do anything more than ask a question on a mailing list from time to time. Has anyone seen _independent_ studies that say one way or the other? (References please.) I do think, that some of the answer depends on the quality of the software they are working on (just as it likely does when working on proprietary software), so perhaps I should separate out what could be called hobbyist open source versus open source that has a large community of followers (regardless of license) like Linux, ASF projects, Eclipse, etc. Therefore, assuming two different pieces of software, one being proprietary and one being open, both of which will solve the problem, are developers who solve the problem with open source happier in their job? I'll add another factor, one that I haven't seen mentioned here yet. Developers who work with open source know that the skills and knowledge they are gaining while working with open source can be directly transferred to their next position. Compare spending, say, 3 years learning the ins and outs of a proprietary code base with spending the same amount of time working with open source software. When it comes time to move on, those working on proprietary code can take their experience with them, but their knowledge of the code base is, in most cases, no longer useful. The other thing I'd say is that the answers to these questions are going to depend a lot on the particular developers in question. A couple of people have commented here on how great it is to be able to dig in and find the root cause of a bug, and even fix it. That's great for us open source nuts. But the vast majority of developers don't give a hoot about why a tool or library or whatever doesn't work, whether it's open source or not - they just want it to work. Also, even for open source nuts like us, it almost certainly depends on the domain of the software in question. If I had a problem with a Commons library, for example, I'd likely dig in and take a look, but if my Linux kernel driver wasn't doing what it should, well, I'm not going anywhere near that. -- Martin Cooper At any rate, my motivation for asking is that I'm writing an article on some thoughts in this area spurred by something a client told me (at a very old, established company, mind you) about why they wanted to get the word out that they were using open source: they felt it would help them attract and retain developers b/c they would be more satisfied in their jobs b/c they got to work on innovative open source technologies. Thanks for your insights, Grant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On 9/23/2010 11:13 PM, Martin Cooper wrote: The other thing I'd say is that the answers to these questions are going to depend a lot on the particular developers in question. A couple of people have commented here on how great it is to be able to dig in and find the root cause of a bug, and even fix it. That's great for us open source nuts. But the vast majority of developers don't give a hoot about why a tool or library or whatever doesn't work, whether it's open source or not - they just want it to work. See, that's the difference. The folks who appreciate open source are getting their code to work, no if's and's or but's. The folks who rely on a vendor to Just Fix It and really couldn't care if they are off to another project (or doing nothing) for a few weeks aren't in the market for the sources of their tooling. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:20 PM, William A. Rowe Jr. wr...@apache.org wrote: On 9/23/2010 11:13 PM, Martin Cooper wrote: The other thing I'd say is that the answers to these questions are going to depend a lot on the particular developers in question. A couple of people have commented here on how great it is to be able to dig in and find the root cause of a bug, and even fix it. That's great for us open source nuts. But the vast majority of developers don't give a hoot about why a tool or library or whatever doesn't work, whether it's open source or not - they just want it to work. See, that's the difference. Well, yes and no. The question was about those who use or work with open source, as I understand it. Whether those same people _appreciate_ open source is somewhat different. (Or are you telling me that I must not appreciate open source because I do have ifs attached to where in the code I'll go, and won't dig in to fix a Linux bug?) Likewise, those who just need a dependency to work are not necessarily depending on a vendor to fix it. It may be an open source dependency and they may not have the time, the inclination, or the leeway from their legal department, to fix it themselves. -- Martin Cooper The folks who appreciate open source are getting their code to work, no if's and's or but's. The folks who rely on a vendor to Just Fix It and really couldn't care if they are off to another project (or doing nothing) for a few weeks aren't in the market for the sources of their tooling. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Are devs who work on or use open source happier in their employment?
On 9/23/2010 11:40 PM, Martin Cooper wrote: On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:20 PM, William A. Rowe Jr. wr...@apache.org wrote: On 9/23/2010 11:13 PM, Martin Cooper wrote: The other thing I'd say is that the answers to these questions are going to depend a lot on the particular developers in question. A couple of people have commented here on how great it is to be able to dig in and find the root cause of a bug, and even fix it. That's great for us open source nuts. But the vast majority of developers don't give a hoot about why a tool or library or whatever doesn't work, whether it's open source or not - they just want it to work. See, that's the difference. Well, yes and no. The question was about those who use or work with open source, as I understand it. Whether those same people _appreciate_ open source is somewhat different. (Or are you telling me that I must not appreciate open source because I do have ifs attached to where in the code I'll go, and won't dig in to fix a Linux bug?) Right. I won't fix every bug I encounter. I'll fix every bug in my way standing between me and completion of my current project(s). There is a difference (and I'm happy to jump operating systems to work around the platform bugs). Likewise, those who just need a dependency to work are not necessarily depending on a vendor to fix it. It may be an open source dependency and they may not have the time, the inclination, or the leeway from their legal department, to fix it themselves. Or... the author's legal department, c.f. MS bugs. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
