The GPL has always had command line apps covered on the dont remove the
GPL/credits it just has to evolve to graphics.
We're looking at doing just that, but we don't yet have a draft of
such a change.
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The Linux Standards Base is a plan to develop a specification for
the GNU system. Not, in this case, for the GNU/Linux combination,
just for GNU, because these specs don't concern the kernel, Linux.
It is purely for GNU, but they call GNU Linux.
If we want to develop specs for the GNU system,
LSB today includes non-Linux companies implementing Linux compatibility
(I presume you mean GNU/Linux compatibility.)
for applications this way, and not all will use GNU code. The Linux in
LSB is today arguably wrong, but for different reasons to those you
assume.
I take your
So I would definitely agree that given an idea of contributing (code),
women will easily ask who will pay for it where men might not. Maybe
they consider open source more as working than as a hobby or a way
social networking or even as a way to educate oneself.
Perhaps this is a
Federico 10. Be computer literate. Preferably Linux literate.
Unless you're looking for kernel hackers,
please make that GNU/Linux literate.
You probably want people who know how to edit with Emacs,
write code to compile with GCC, debug with GDB, and call
functions in GLIBC and GTK+.
Linux is a trademark in the USA. The use of GNU/Linux without indicating
the trademark is inappropriately confusing the registered mark.
I could ask lawyers whether you are right, but I think there is no
need to ask them unless someone makes a legal complaint. The FSF
has never received
As Jonathan pointed out, our bank has a website which does some rather
evil platform detection, and refuses to run on anything other than IE.
This is worse than I realized. The Foundation is not only using
user-subjugating software, it is using a bank that pressures its
customers to do
Online banking is a new feature for this bank. We told them we were
planning on switching banks if they didn't support Firefox or other
browsers, and they said that they would look into it. I wouldn't expect
them to support it overnight,
It would be counterproductive to hurry
How about encouraging some sort of cooperation between GNOME user
groups and the GNU Project? Most of GNOME users use the GNU system,
and all of them use one important GNU package.
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Do you really think that writing down Be nice makes us nicer and makes
us look nicer to the outsiders?
That's the funny thing - YES!
Just reminding people nicely can make a big difference. The reminder
can make people think, and a considerable fraction, after thinking,
will
I am forwarding Eben Moglen's explanation of trademark issues
concerning the code of GNOME. Eben Moglen is a law professor and
founded the Software Freedom Law Center. He specifically addresses
the case of an error message, but I expect it is the same for any sort
of string in the code, and
Arguments against the term GNU/Linux commonly use straw men, double
standards, unfair accusations, factual errors, and tangents. Alan
Cox's message illustrates all of them.
A straw man argument criticizes something that nobody's arguing for.
The valid links in these arguments are often
One problem of associating GNOME with the name Linux is that it could
tend to encourage the widespread tendency to think of GNOME and all of
GNU as part of Linux. Arranging sponsorship through gnome.conf.au
instead of linux.conf.au would be a small step to avoid encouraging this.
I think the board made a good decision--it dealt with the problem at
hand, in a practical way.
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Alan was pointing out that you don't have permission to create a trademark
derivative from the owners of the Linux trademark.
According our legal advice, from Eben Moglen of the Software Freedom
Law Center, no special permission is needed for this.
In general, a free program that runs in a completely free system is a
contribution to freedom; but GNOME is special: it was launched
specifically to defend our freedom. We stated GNOME to blunt the
danger of the (then) non-free QT library. I think most GNOME users
and developers today are not
I must say, I hadn't read Joachim's other comments until
after I'd sent my endorsement. I stand by my assertion
that he's been a highly motivated contributor to the GDP,
although it's now somewhat hard to understand why.
It shouldn't be a surprise. People have lots of different
I believe in the values of this freedom myself, but never use it as an
argument when I want to switch someone to GNU/Linux.
Explaining to these people about freedom is important even if it
doesn't bring immediate results in the sense of convincing them to
switch.
The most important thing
In general, a free program that runs in a completely free system is a
contribution to freedom; but GNOME is special: it was launched
specifically to defend our freedom. We stated GNOME to blunt the
danger of the (then) non-free QT library. I think most GNOME users
and
It unfortunately does not at this time, and that's something
I'd really like to address. But right now, the documentation
isn't even doing a good job of being documentation (although it
is better than it used to be, thanks in large part to Joachim),
and that's a higher
I endorse the candidacy of Dave Neary and Anne Oestergaard, because of
their strong support for free software and its freedoms.
Most practical improvements to GNOME will advance the Free Software
Movement--but there are exceptions. There are also specific things
the GNOME Foundation can do to
I use the:
GNOME / KDE / SAMBA / OpenOffice.org / PHP / FreeDesktop.org /
Python / Apache foundation / X.org / Perl / [and 10,000 other
packages ] / GNU / Linux as packaged by the huge communities of
contributors to Gentoo / Debian / Fedora /
In relation to Hubert's comment I'm interested to hear your view on the
Microsoft Open Specification Promise (OSP) that Microsoft applies to
OOXML since last October.
I had not heard of that before yesterday. Today I obtained a copy.
I am not sure whether the license applies to
Here in Portugal, in the OOXML fake-standard debate, the position of
Free Softwar activists has been that it's impossible to fully implement,
Yes. The spec has 6000 pages, and that isn't even the complete spec,
since it refers to other Microsoft specs which it has not given
permission to
Does that wiki page roughly match your professional legal advice ? (or
even experience ?).
I haven't got any legal advice about this question yet. Have you?
Anyhow - I am interested at your interest in the Open-Standards debate.
As a tactic, I have noticed that ODF (or just Open
Here in Portugal, in the OOXML fake-standard debate, the position of
Free Softwar activists has been that it's impossible to fully implement,
or might even be downright illegal to do it independently, closed formats.
Well, neither OOXML nor ODF have been fully implemented by
I'll try to forward you my
collection of arguments, counter-arguments and counter-counter-arguments
I'm preparing for the meeting next monday
A long article full of details is useful for your meeting; however, in
other contexts, a shorter article can be more persuasive. A long list
OOXML is for the most part a much simpler version to process than the
old file formats.
If you know of something else more complex than OOXML's 6000-page
incomplete spec, does it matter? Even supposing you are right, I
don't see that it changes anything about OOXML.
Thus we remain
Interest groups have used standards to club their opponents for many
years. Its nothing new.
It is insulting because of the contemptuous attitude it shows.
Really that speaks about you, not about me.
I would not go as far as saying
that OOXML is a sham just because ODF helps us
OOXML is a sham as a free/open standard, due to dozens of flaws
described in http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections.
The problem is that the above url is far from being truthful. You do
not have to go too far to find problems with it, starting with the
The analysis on that page is based on a different patent license than
the OSP for OOXML.
If it isn't about OOXML and isn't about the OSP, it seems doubly
irrelevant.
In regard to what he says this about the OSP:
âI see Microsoftâs introduction of the OSP as a good step
Since I do not read what Microsoft says in standards group meetings, I
thank Rui for informating us that it matches what Miguel de Icaza said
here. Putting that similarity together with the nature of his
statements (vague claims that that the criticism of OOXML is flawed),
it becomes a cogent
And put in different words: if anybody is concerned about how this
issue affects the GNOME Foundation and the GNOME project in general
please expose these concerns in a way we can do or say something.
I think the GNOME Foundation should lend its support to the campaign
against
If the developers of some component of GNOME want to make it formally
a GNU package, they can assign copyright to the FSF.
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The original reason that the FSF was advised to get copyright
assignments from all contributors to a program is that simplifying the
copyright status of the program facilitates going to court.
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Boston MA, USA -- August 15, 2007 -- A one month, world-wide celebration of
GNOME's tenth anniversary begins this week, culminating in mid-September
with Software Freedom Day and the release of GNOME 2.20. During the
celebration month, GNOME contributors will create a scrapbook
This is very timely. I've been asked to head up a pilot project here at
the University of Toronto with a goal of engaging students in open
source development.
If you launch a project of open source development, you can teach
students how to participate in useful projects of
I think about this issue pretty much every time I write open source --
and it is your fault :)
Good ;-). I've been working hard at this for 9 years, and it is nice
to know I have had influence on some people's thoughts.
If I can also influence your actions so that you too will spread
Is it really a too difficult and too time consuming task to spend a
minute to cast one's vote in a fortnight for an average GNOME Foundation
member?
I had no strong opinion so I left it up to the others.
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Although I disagree with the tone and content of your email, an
announcement is pending about a related issue, which may address
concerns (legitimate or not) raised about GNOME's involvement in
TC45-M. Participation in the TC45-M process does not imply
approval or support for
We'll be making a statement about the issue soon. Don't expect it to please
everyone.
I hope it will displease those that seek to cite the GNOME Foundation
to advocate greater use of OOXML.
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Are you seriously suggesting that it's in the best interests of our
users, of GNUmeric users and Abiword users, not to be able to open OOXML
files? I disagree with your statement that most in the community want
the standardisation process to fail - I would suggest that most want
I think that The GNOME participating in OOXML lends it a credibility
it does not deserve. Joining ECMA TC45 would be like joining of the
political party you dislike the most to improve their politics.
It's like starting a competing political party and going to the same
law
Microsoft's goal is, by one means or another, to defeat free software
which it now considers a serious threat. Whatever they do, it will not
be a sincere standardization effort that offers no obstacle to free
software implementions.
This is just your opinion, Richard. Not
OOXML is going to be the defacto standard whether we like it or not.
To pretend otherwise is to deny that the sun will rise in the East
tomorrow.
Please don't be defeatist!
We can and should try to make free software read OOXML, because that will be
a useful feature -- but that
You said:
OOXML is going to be the defacto standard whether we like it or not.
The defacto standard implies there is only one, and the sentence
says it is not ODF.
It is only by forcing that dichotomy that we set
ourselves up for problems when MS eventually gets OOX through
If that is the case, anyone who is represented on the ECMA committee
is helping to promote the ISO acceptance of OOXML
The latter does not necessarily follow from the former. Intentions
do matter.
Intentions do matter, especially in influencing others. But if you
don't state
The membership can still push for a change from not supporting to
actively opposing given the debate now is more active.
What does 'actively oppose' mean in concrete terms ?
- Asking frivolous questions ?
- Writing bad documentation ?
- Starting flame wars on the mailing
OOXML will be a de facto standard entirely due to Microsoft's dominant
position in the computing industry... the fight is about preventing it to
be
a formal standard.
I remain open to being convinced (1) that that distinction matters and
(2) that anyone actually thinks
That is a stretch. It's undeniably that improvements made in MOOX
at my request will tangentially facilitate ISO acceptance.
Thank you. If you make a public commitment to stay out of the
activity of satisfying ISO, and to stay inactive in the committee
while its focus is
Umm, never occurred to me... Maybe extend the Friend of GNOMEs
program... with Benefits... donno..
Would we call this the GNOME Lovers program?
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Is someone working on a statement that the GNOME Foundation does not
support acceptance of OOXML as an ISO standard?
I would be glad to offer confidential suggestions about a draft.
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I think that one requisite of a good board member is a visible
commitment to the goal of a world in which software is free.
GNOME's purpose is not merely to be a convenient desktop;
it is to provide the Free World with a convenient desktop.
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I've seen projects like Plone do that... it's clearly an open source
project, but they list quite a few companies that can provide for-pay
support.
What's more significant for our purposes is that Plone is a free
software package. That makes it relevant for comparison.
The first term is the
preferred/correct one while the one in brackets helps connecting a
phrase familiar to many people. I personally don't have any problem
with either one.
That is a legitimate approach, and it can be helpful as you say.
However, those precise words are
Even if you don't do that right now and was never asked to do, it's not
impossible that you may be pressured to so in the future, which is why
the affiliation is important
A very nasty company, whose internal culture is cynical and has little
idea of loyalty, might put heavy-handed
Heh, then should a question be whether you're a member of the FSF?
Sometimes what is good for the FSF isn't good for GNOME and vice versa.
Neither of those two is the right basis to decide what we should do.
Companies have no goal beyond what is good for them, so that is what
they aim
This statement seems to be taking a long time; the delay reduces the
effect. When will it be published?
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The page says
p align=justifyThe work to standardise OpenXML has been
carried out by Ecma International with representatives from Apple,
Barclays Capital, BP, The British Library, Essilor, Gnome
Foundation, Intel, Microsoft, NextPage, Novell, Statoil, Toshiba,
and the United
1. Would you change anything in the GNOME Foundation statement about
OOXML?
2. How do you think the GNOME Foundation should support the Free
Software Movement in general?
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The sell here for Microsoft is very very easy. The small businesses
that I do consulting for here in the US all use Microsoft operating
systems and office products.
Do you talk to them about moving to free software?
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Right on, but you could make sure not only geeks noticed the many poison
pills of OOXML. This discussion is an evident proof one of the poison
pills is getting at people.
This discussion is not about supporting OOXML.
The discussion is about how to prevent OOXML from becoming
What funding? No one is paying Jody to do what he does on OOXML;
again, he is a volunteer, doing things voluntarily. If someone were to
volunteer for ODF, the board would facilitate it. But the board isn't
going to pay anyone to work on either standard.
We have analogous
And for as much threatening as Microsoft does around IP, they're not
particularly active in litigating on it.
When the issue is about patent law, saying intellectual property
instead of patents only tends to confuse the issue, by spuriously
extending it to copyrights, trademarks, and
The patent clauses of GPLv3 are designed to make Microsoft give us all
patent safety thru its involvement in distribution of SuSe GNU/Linux,
if and when programs under GPLv3 and not under GPLv2 are included in
SuSe GNU/Linux.
(If they aren't included in SuSe GNU/Linux, they don't affect Novell
at
And for as much threatening as Microsoft does around IP, they're not
particularly active in litigating on it.
When the issue is about patent law, saying intellectual property
instead of patents only tends to confuse the issue, by spuriously
extending it to
Also to not clutter mailboxes even more, I don't see how an optional
dependency on anything can be worse than the fact that GNOME optionally
compiles on MS Windows systems.
That GNOME can work on Windows has no effect on what GNOME does in a
GNU/Linux system. However, a dependency
The reason this is not so is that Microsoft is trying to spin the
apparent support of GNOME into proof that OOXML is not bad for
free software.
Such a risk is always there. People who base their information on what
one side of a story says are doomed to hear everything but
Vincent Untz posted our Mono policy yesterday, which states very clearly
GNOME's stance on the issue. No part of the core platform can depend on
Mono, and no part of the desktop suit can pick up a new Mono dependency
without going through the module approval process again. A Mono
I think it would add value to spend more on marketing and on
evangelical community building opportunities. For example, Windows
and MacOS have flashy Welcome to the desktop presentations.
Perhaps it is time for the GNOME community to find ways to better
advertise itself.
It
If people are going to be looking at licenses, I would very
much like to discuss the FDL v2, and our usage of the FDL in
general. There are some troublesome parts whose implications
for GNOME aren't clear to me.
Would you like to pick someone to discuss this with the FSF?
There is no schedule for the next FDL. Since Wikipedia has made up
its mind, I want to (and owe it to them to) work on this soon.
However, there is time to listen to suggestions, if they come soon.
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I don't recall that any candidate explicily rejected supporting the free
software movement by means other than improving the attractiveness and
success of GNOME. But several candidates answered in a way that seemed to
pointedly imply a rejection of any such form of support for
GNOME is based on a philosophy, but it is not just a philosophy.
It is a project to develop and maintain a desktop environment.
A technical project has to make specific technical decisions. It
can't favor all the options that fit the philosophy; often it has to
choose an avenue and follow it.
Richard, I also like to see you show up in the GNOME Advisory Board
meetings and mailing list as FSF's representative.
Does that require travel, or can it be done by phone?
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I have not used Planet GNOME, and I have no opinions about how it is
run. However, a site without editorial control, on which people can
post whatever they like, should not be the public face of GNOME. If
it is perceived that way, that is a problem.
To solve this problem does not necessarily
I agree 100% here, just because we're supposed to have an ideology of
free software doesn't mean we should be against using non-free software.
The central point of the free software movement is that non-free
software tramples the users' freedom. We must not ever treat
non-free software
Diego Escalante requested sponsorship from GNOME Foundation to bring
latin american GNOME contributors to a summer FLOSS event in Peru. The
Board has aproved a $3000,00 sponsor for this event. Diego is also
discussing with GNOME Chile about a Latin American tour of some key
For people who don't know what GHOP is:
http://code.google.com/opensource/ghop/2007-8/
It looks like a useful and worthwhile activity, but that page
describes GNOME as an open source project. Would you please ask
them to describe GNOME as a free software project, and to talk
about
This activity sounds very useful, but there's a problem in the
announcement: it doesn't mention free software, but does mention
open source.
Could you revise it so that free software gets equal weight (at
least)?
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The only places in the announcement that open source appears is in the
Google's office name, and in the About blurbs of sponsors (Mozilla
Foundation and Canonical). None of which GNOME Foundation has any
control on.
That is true, but the GNOME Foundation has control over the
Note that this press release is not about free software, but about
accessibility
It's about accessibility for GNOME, thus accessibility for free
software. The fact that GNOME is free software isn't the main point
of this announcement, but it should be a side point.
In our
company we have 75 linux desktop and 73 win32 desktops,
It would be better to say, 75 GNU/Linux desktops and 73 Windows desktops.
Calling the system GNU/Linux gives credit to the GNU Project
(including GNOME) where it is due. See
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html.
Also,
Ok, you talked me into doing it. Check again:
http://www.gnome.org/press/releases/gop-a11y.html
Thank you.
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So if
you want a research grant from the European Union, you're forced to be
using Windows...
We need to organize a campaign to change this. I wonder if Neelie Kroes
could help.
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In working with the Mozilla Foundation, we need to keep in mind that
the Firefox binaries released by the Mozilla foundation are non-free.
Originally this was true for two different reasons:
1. These binaries included the Talkback module for which
source was not released at all. (Mozilla does
Firefox 3.0 will use Breakpad instead of that talkback software. At one
point the build included both for testing reasons. However, in the
current nightly it appears that talkback is not included (I know it
wasn't used for a while).
Is Breakpad free? If so, that is good news --
Is this the EULA that you're referring to?
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/legal/eula/firefox-en.html
Yes. It is quite clearly a non-free license.
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GNOME is People. Do you have any evidence that the Moroccan *people*
are opposed to the values GNOME stands for?
I think the Moroccan *people* are not the issue.
Those people have an oppressing
regime, ignore them is not a really compelling idea to me.
If the purpose of
- US visa. It's a real issue. It's not a predictable and fast
process like most European countries are. It literally takes months to
get a US visa for those of us that need one. And many people going to
GUADEC need one.
I think it would be a good thing for GNOME to make a
Here's a question that I would like the candidates to answer.
What do you think GNOME should do to support the
broader cause of free/libre software,
and the freedom of computer users?
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Created some Amazon affiliate accounts in US, UK, Canada and Germany so tha=
t
Jaap can set up stores and a Firefox widget that will enable people to
direct Amazon referral fees for their purchase to GNOME.
It is not a good thing for the GNOME Foundation to support Amazon in
this
GNOME can't exist in a cultural vacuum. We should do
everything we can to work against DRM, to support sources of Free
culture, and to educate users about Free culture, DRM, and
non-patent-encumbered media formats.[1] But we also have to make
compromises sometimes, so that
And stupid patents
Many companies get absurd patents -- which does not excuse them -- so
in this regard there is no point singling out Amazon.
However, Amazon is one of the few that has actually sued using a
software patent.
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Amazon was also the first significant provider of mainstream
commercial music to offer a 100% DRM-free music store, and also the
first (as far as I know) to offer a GNU/Linux client (albeit a
non-libre client) for their music store.
Distributing a non-libre program means
Another problem with trying to find an issue here is that, depending on
the point of view, Amazon acted within their own Terms (point iii under
Subscriptions).
Legally, that would make a difference; ethically, it is beside the
point. Some people are willing to sign away their freedom
Some of the people in the audience in my speech in the Gran Canaria
Desktop Summit thought that my joke about the Virgin of Emacs was
intended to make some kind of statement about women.
I was surprised by that reaction, since I had told the same joke dozens
of times and this is the first report
I don't believe Frederic was pointing at Miguel. There are people who
have left the Gnome community working on products that don't use any
Gnome technology posting blog post/ads for said product on PGO.
I wonder whether these products are free software.
If not, they certainly
Is it possible to provide filters so that people who are interested in
different types of blog entries can focus on what is interesting to
them?
This could be a useful feature for many reasons, but it doesn't
address the issue of articles that grant legitimacy to non-free
software.
The people who work at VmWare also very often posted (and still post)
about their work and appear on Planet GNOME.
They should not do this, unless VmWare becomes free software. GNOME
should not provide proprietary software developers with a platform to
present non-free software as a good
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