Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams (+Win32)

2017-01-22 Thread Roger
> On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 05:03:36AM +, Ian Munsie wrote:
>   On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 11:35 AM Roger <[1]rogerx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Back in 2006 someone made a port of Gqview to windows. It died pretty
> quickly.
> >Was this because:
> >
> ...
> >c) Windows users are happy with what they have, and would not bother
> >with Geeqie
>
> My bets are on option "c) Windows users are happy with what they have."
> They're happy with the default Windows' image viewer.** The default
> viewer is
> extremely easy and apparently light in resource usage.
>
>   How about option d) Windows users have never experienced a decent image
>   viewer and don't know what they are missing ;-p

Ah. I always forget to factor in the parents' percpective into the scenario!

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams (+Win32)

2017-01-21 Thread Ian Munsie
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 11:35 AM Roger  wrote:

> >Back in 2006 someone made a port of Gqview to windows. It died pretty
> quickly.
> >Was this because:
> >
> ...
> >c) Windows users are happy with what they have, and would not bother
> >with Geeqie
>
> My bets are on option "c) Windows users are happy with what they have."
> They're happy with the default Windows' image viewer.  The default viewer
> is
> extremely easy and apparently light in resource usage.
>

How about option d) Windows users have never experienced a decent image
viewer and don't know what they are missing ;-p

I still use that old port actually because there is nothing better, though
it has some pretty severe issues like visually corrupting one in ten images
I throw at it. I'd love to join the dev team and work on a port based off
something more recent, but my time is stretched too thin as it is.

-Ian
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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams (+Win32)

2017-01-21 Thread Alexander Antimonov
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 3:26 AM, Ian Zimmerman  wrote:
> While I also much prefer Geeqie to stay just a viewer, plus maybe a kind
> of "shell" for editors [1], I disagree that Linux lacks lightweight
> viewers.  feh is currently my other favorite.
>
> [1]
> On this topic, would it be interesting to create pipelines for editors,
> rather than just invoking them 1 by 1?  For example, we could make it
> possible to create a pipeline where an intricate batch imagemagick
> command is called on the current image, the output is saved to a
> temporary file, and then gimp is immediately called on the temporary to
> allow for manual postprocessing.  Can we imagine a GUI for defining such
> pipelines?

I have just recalled, there is also GEGL (www.gegl.org) for the
"pipelined" editing of the images.

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams (+Win32)

2016-12-30 Thread Klaus Ethgen
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Hi,

Am Do den 29. Dez 2016 um  3:10 schrieb Josef Kufner:
> Ian Zimmerman wrote, on 29.12.2016 02:26:
> > On this topic, would it be interesting to create pipelines for editors,
> > rather than just invoking them 1 by 1?  For example, we could make it
> > possible to create a pipeline where an intricate batch imagemagick
> > command is called on the current image, the output is saved to a
> > temporary file, and then gimp is immediately called on the temporary to
> > allow for manual postprocessing.  Can we imagine a GUI for defining such
> > pipelines?  
> 
> It would be very messy. Leave that to command line.

Somehow. But maybe we can utilize LUA and put that into a nice editor.

> What can be done quite easily is to invoke a command on a selection of
> images (something like xargs):

Currently I have something similar on my todo list. Something to
automatic process duplicates. If you have say more than 1000 duplicates
and want to proceed them choosing which to delete and merging metadata,
it is a pain in the A... to do it manually.

In this case, my plan is to call external script with several clear
defined parameters on command line for each doublicates found.

Regards
   Klaus
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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-29 Thread Colin Clark
On 30/12/16 00:02, Alexander Antimonov wrote:
>
> I take "jpeg comment" issues: #381, #286.
>
In the Help files - in sections Overlay Screen Display and Lua 
Extensions - one of the examples explains how to get the jpeg comments 
into the Overlay Screen Display using a Lua script.

Of course you will have to install Lua and do a bit of copy-paste 
programming, but I don't think you will have difficulty getting it to work.

If it becomes clear there is a large number of users who need this, it 
might be better to give jpeg comments their own tag in the Overlay 
Screen Display.

However, if you want jpeg comments as an element in the sidebar, that's 
a another problem...

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-29 Thread Alexander Antimonov
On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Alexander Antimonov
 wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Omari Stephens  wrote:
>> On 12/26/2016 10:37 PM, Alexander Antimonov wrote:
>>> Is there any plan, enhancement list, users' whishlist?
>>
>> There is a bug list, which does have some feature requests as well:
>> https://github.com/BestImageViewer/geeqie/issues
> Let's see.
I take "jpeg comment" issues: #381, #286.

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams (+Win32)

2016-12-29 Thread Alexander Antimonov
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 4:10 AM, Josef Kufner  wrote:
> ...
> I think there is a better way, but it would be a bit more  complicated
> to implement. I wonder if it is a bit too complex for a simple
> use-cases. It is called "block programming". It is quite an old idea:
> ...
> https://josef.kufner.cz/publications/2014.kufner.cascade.pdf
Sounds familiar. I had been using similar method for video processing.
That was DirecShow technology and it was vulnerable to so called
"codec hell". So we (the team I worked with) had to build filter graph
"by hands" explicitly by unique IDs of codecs. For Unix there is
GStreamer. I'm not sure if it's possible to use it for static images,
maybe wrapped as a video key frame?

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams (+Win32)

2016-12-28 Thread Josef Kufner
Ian Zimmerman wrote, on 29.12.2016 02:26:
> On this topic, would it be interesting to create pipelines for editors,
> rather than just invoking them 1 by 1?  For example, we could make it
> possible to create a pipeline where an intricate batch imagemagick
> command is called on the current image, the output is saved to a
> temporary file, and then gimp is immediately called on the temporary to
> allow for manual postprocessing.  Can we imagine a GUI for defining such
> pipelines?  

It would be very messy. Leave that to command line.

What can be done quite easily is to invoke a command on a selection of
images (something like xargs):

  1. Select images
  2. Hit "Batch processing" button
  3. Dialog window will appear. User selects the command and
 reviews list of images.
  4. Hit "Execute" button
  5. Progress is shown in the dialog.
  6. Go to 3.

Question is about the form of the command selection. Geeqie has list of
editor commands wich are available in the popup menu. These should be
available here too. Maybe we can do the same as e-mail clients do with
filters. It would look familiar, but also it would be limited just like
these filter GUI are. Basically a list of commands may be sufficient,
but it is hard to specify inputs and outputs.

I think there is a better way, but it would be a bit more  complicated
to implement. I wonder if it is a bit too complex for a simple
use-cases. It is called "block programming". It is quite an old idea:
Each block (a filter) has inputs and outputs. These I/O are connected
together and blocks form directed acyclic graph. User draws such graph
using palette of predefined blocks and then executes it. I wrote a paper
about modification of this approach for web applications, but it can be
easily adapted to any non-interactive use, just like this one. See the
paper:
https://josef.kufner.cz/publications/2014.kufner.cascade.pdf

Benefit over unix pipelines is in easy dealing with multiple inputs and
outputs. You can have a block to merge multiple images with aplha
channel, or to split color image into three by RGB channels and process
them separately.

If you want complex shell for batch processing, this is the way to go.
If you want something simple, just run one command on a set of images.

Have a nice day!
Josef Kufner

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams (+Win32)

2016-12-28 Thread Ian Zimmerman
On 2016-12-28 19:35, Roger wrote:

> Linux is a different story, as most easy image viewers are heavy on
> system resources or (more currently) depend upon clunky and heavy
> resource usage Python scripting.  For those of us that are a little
> more computer literate, ImageMagick display does just fine, but for
> photography image browsing, GView/Geeqie was a God send.  God send
> because GView/Geeqie is light and simple to use.
> 
> I also think if Geeqie keeps gaining more image editing functions with
> those functions not having switches for deactivating of such image
> editing functions, users may start to sway towards other more heavier
> applications.  (eg. If user is already loading an image editor, they
> may just opt to load some other heavy XYZ application.)  Just guessing
> on the later here.  I'm one of those, if I need image editing, I
> immediately use the more defacto imagemagick or The Gimp.

While I also much prefer Geeqie to stay just a viewer, plus maybe a kind
of "shell" for editors [1], I disagree that Linux lacks lightweight
viewers.  feh is currently my other favorite.

[1]
On this topic, would it be interesting to create pipelines for editors,
rather than just invoking them 1 by 1?  For example, we could make it
possible to create a pipeline where an intricate batch imagemagick
command is called on the current image, the output is saved to a
temporary file, and then gimp is immediately called on the temporary to
allow for manual postprocessing.  Can we imagine a GUI for defining such
pipelines?  

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams (+Win32)

2016-12-28 Thread Roger
>Back in 2006 someone made a port of Gqview to windows. It died pretty quickly. 
>Was this because:
>
>a) GTK's cross platform capability is a bit of a fiction
>
>b) Gqview/Geeqie was too complex to port successfully
>
>c) Windows users are happy with what they have, and would not bother 
>with Geeqie

My bets are on option "c) Windows users are happy with what they have."  
They're happy with the default Windows' image viewer.  The default viewer is 
extremely easy and apparently light in resource usage.

I usually then resort to The Gimp under Windows for further image editing 
functions.  The Gimp GTK interfaces seems to work just fine under Windows.

Linux is a different story, as most easy image viewers are heavy on system 
resources or (more currently) depend upon clunky and heavy resource usage 
Python scripting.  For those of us that are a little more computer literate, 
ImageMagick display does just fine, but for photography image browsing, 
GView/Geeqie was a God send.  God send because GView/Geeqie is light and simple 
to use.

I also think if Geeqie keeps gaining more image editing functions with those 
functions not having switches for deactivating of such image editing functions, 
users may start to sway towards other more heavier applications.  (eg. If user 
is already loading an image editor, they may just opt to  load some other heavy 
XYZ application.)  Just guessing on the later here.  I'm one of those, if I 
need image editing, I immediately use the more defacto imagemagick or The Gimp.


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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams (+Win32)

2016-12-28 Thread Colin Clark
On 24/12/16 15:39, Alexander Antimonov wrote:
> While porting to C++1x it is good chance to make Geeqie more
> cross-platform. But it seems Gtk is becoming (has become) an auxiliary
> tool for the "GnomeOS". And some of the well-known projects was/is
> migrating from Gtk. Maybe we should consider Qt instead? Anyhow, I
> guess it's more correct to talk about re-implementation than just
> port.
>
I apologise for asking some questions that are no doubt totally obvious 
to those of you who have current knowledge, however...

Back in 2006 someone made a port of Gqview to windows. It died pretty 
quickly. Was this because:

a) GTK's cross platform capability is a bit of a fiction

b) Gqview/Geeqie was too complex to port successfully

c) Windows users are happy with what they have, and would not bother 
with Geeqie


I guess that the reason is b) but I'd be grateful if someone would 
confirm that.


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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-27 Thread Alexander Antimonov
On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Omari Stephens  wrote:
> On 12/26/2016 10:37 PM, Alexander Antimonov wrote:
>> Is there any plan, enhancement list, users' whishlist?
>
> There is a bug list, which does have some feature requests as well:
> https://github.com/BestImageViewer/geeqie/issues
Let's see.

>
> --xsdg

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-27 Thread Omari Stephens
On 12/26/2016 10:37 PM, Alexander Antimonov wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Klaus Ethgen  wrote:
>> I for myself have technical reasons why I dislike C++. And I also have
> Could you, please, provide a list of your dislikes of C++?
>
>> concerns about maintainability. Many times the encapsulating breaks
>> necessary overview.
> For instance?
>
>> So, conclusion, if you have something that can be done in C++ and you
>> want to do it, go ahead. Especially if you stay with the project and
>> maintain that stuff afterwards. :-)
> Is there any plan, enhancement list, users' whishlist?

There is a bug list, which does have some feature requests as well:
https://github.com/BestImageViewer/geeqie/issues

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-26 Thread Alexander Antimonov
On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Klaus Ethgen  wrote:
> I for myself have technical reasons why I dislike C++. And I also have
Could you, please, provide a list of your dislikes of C++?

> concerns about maintainability. Many times the encapsulating breaks
> necessary overview.
For instance?

> So, conclusion, if you have something that can be done in C++ and you
> want to do it, go ahead. Especially if you stay with the project and
> maintain that stuff afterwards. :-)
Is there any plan, enhancement list, users' whishlist?

> Regards
>Klaus
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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-25 Thread Klaus Ethgen
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Hi,

Am Sa den 24. Dez 2016 um 18:18 schrieb Alexander Antimonov:
> > - Introduce new bugs (because big rewrites always do)
> Sure, but with C++ port we can also simplify code, and less code - less bugs.
> Now considerable part of Geeqie's code is plain C which builds UI.
> It's a rare method of building UI nowadays. It should be replaced with
> something like Glade description.

Well, geeqie does not stop you to do some implementations in c++ (see
the exiv2 interface).

However, there should be someone caring about that parts afterwards.

We had several big changes in the past where the main author wrote it
and kept the bug hunting to others. I can say that I had to fight with
motivation issues due to that. :-(

> > - Maybe exclude some core developers who just don't have as much fun in C++ 
> > as in C
> It might be a good chance for them to improve their skills a bit.
> 
> My 5 cents, I prefer do not use love/hate words when it comes to
> technical things.

I for myself have technical reasons why I dislike C++. And I also have
concerns about maintainability. Many times the encapsulating breaks
necessary overview.

About the UI design. I tried myself once to redo it with glade. However,
I dropped it as it just binds so many resources that I can spend for
better stuff. But I agree, that a more OO design would help for UI
stuff.

Other stuff would not gain any improvement and, worse, loose it.

So, conclusion, if you have something that can be done in C++ and you
want to do it, go ahead. Especially if you stay with the project and
maintain that stuff afterwards. :-)

But just converting existing logic into C++ for no need would not help I
think.

Regards
   Klaus
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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-24 Thread Omari Stephens
On 12/24/2016 05:18 PM, Alexander Antimonov wrote:
>> We should have a good expectation of improving life for our users ...
> Users are important, but with such move we could improve developers'
> life at least.
More to the point, code that is easier maintain benefits developers as 
well as users.  And having a language that actually encourages code 
encapsulation, reuse, and adaptation would help us build UIs and 
subcomponents that are more consistent, and consequently, that are 
easier and more intuitive for users to understand and to become familiar 
with.

>> - Introduce new bugs (because big rewrites always do)
> Sure, but with C++ port we can also simplify code, and less code - less bugs.
> Now considerable part of Geeqie's code is plain C which builds UI.
> It's a rare method of building UI nowadays. It should be replaced with
> something like Glade description.

It would also be a great opportunity to _remove_ latent bugs that 
already exist.  _Especially_ typing-related bugs.  Just yesterday (which 
is what spurred me to send this email), I fixed a latent buffer-overflow 
bug in the rcfile parsing code ([1]), because someone passed a short* to 
a function that was going to stuff an int into it.  So I fixed it by 
manually copying and pasting the uint helper functions and replacing 
"uint *" with "uint16 *" in the prototype.  Except I didn't copy all of 
them because it simply increases the maintenance burden for no benefit 
yet.  Except not having a unified API across all of the types creates 
its own dev usability burden.  If that's not a 100% prototypical "just 
throw templates at it" problem, I don't know what is.

Also, say you've got a GList*.  How do you avoid sticking the wrong type 
into it?  In C, you've gotta be perfect (including when returning to 
code that hasn't been touched in 4 years) or your code will magically 
crash when a user is trying to get work done.  In C++, your code isn't 
going to compile if you get it wrong.

Here's another easy example: does Geeqie have any double-free or memory 
leak bugs?  I can pretty much guarantee that it does, because they're so 
hard to detect.  C++ features enable (but don't force) you to actually 
guarantee that those classes of bugs don't exist.  Fewer crashes and 
less unintended memory use both offer significant quality-of-life 
improvements for users.

>> - Maybe exclude some core developers who just don't have as much fun in C++ 
>> as in C
> It might be a good chance for them to improve their skills a bit.
>
> My 5 cents, I prefer do not use love/hate words when it comes to
> technical things.

Agreed, Jeff, which is specifically why I posed this as a question and 
not as a proposal.

That said, I also agree with Alexander.  Learning C++11 (and 
_specifically_ C++11, as opposed to any earlier version) has made me a 
better C programmer, because it's made me more aware of the kinds of 
bugs I write in C that the compiler _doesn't_ catch.  Especially around 
pointer memory ownership.  And those problems are exacerbated by the 
asynchronous patterns used in Glib and GTK, as well as Geeqie itself 
(FileData, I'm looking at you).

std::unique_ptr is annoying, but it's specifically so annoying because 
it exposes so many of my bad pointer-handling habits and forces me to 
fix them.  Those bad habits also have a user impact (*cough* double 
free/memory leak), and being more aware helps me to write better code. 
But that awareness wouldn't have developed anywhere near as quickly 
without std::unique_ptr kicking me in the face every time I got it wrong.

--xsdg

[1] 
https://github.com/BestImageViewer/geeqie/commit/a43d40845dcc2fb63c1ad6cae31b8b1ff5527701

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-24 Thread Alexander Antimonov
> We should have a good expectation of improving life for our users ...
Users are important, but with such move we could improve developers'
life at least.

> - Introduce new bugs (because big rewrites always do)
Sure, but with C++ port we can also simplify code, and less code - less bugs.
Now considerable part of Geeqie's code is plain C which builds UI.
It's a rare method of building UI nowadays. It should be replaced with
something like Glade description.

> - Maybe exclude some core developers who just don't have as much fun in C++ 
> as in C
It might be a good chance for them to improve their skills a bit.

My 5 cents, I prefer do not use love/hate words when it comes to
technical things.


On Sat, Dec 24, 2016 at 5:57 PM, Jeff Abrahamson  wrote:
> Is there a case for what users will get if we make these changes?  We should
> ...
> (Bias: I do quite like C++.)
>
> Jeff Abrahamson
> +33 6 24 40 01 57
> +44 7920 594 255
> http://ml-week.com/ prochaine edition, 2016
>
> http://purple.com/jeff/
> http://blog.purple.com/jeff/

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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-24 Thread Jeff Abrahamson
Is there a case for what users will get if we make these changes?  We
should have a good expectation of improving life for our users or something
similarly worthy if we were to undertake the risk of such a project.

The following user effects come to mind, and they aren't overly positive:

- Introduce new bugs (because big rewrites always do)
- Distract for a while from new features (if there are projects to improve
the package)
- Maybe exclude some core developers who just don't have as much fun in C++
as in C

If we're very lucky, we might get new developer interest from folks who
like C++ but were discouraged from contributing in C.  But community is one
of the hardest parts of open source projects, changing the filter on who is
likely to want to contribute is something to do with great trepidation.

(Bias: I do quite like C++.)

Jeff Abrahamson
+33 6 24 40 01 57
+44 7920 594 255
http://ml-week.com/ * prochaine edition, 2016*

http://purple.com/jeff/ 
http://blog.purple.com/jeff/


On 24 December 2016 at 16:39, Alexander Antimonov <
alexander.antimonov.od...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> I could take part in porting Geeqie to C++1x if it is decided to do so.
> ​[...]
>
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 10:42 PM, Omari Stephens  wrote:
> > It is at least hypothetically possible to port Geeqie to C++11 / GtkMM.
>
>
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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-24 Thread Alexander Antimonov
Hi,
I could take part in porting Geeqie to C++1x if it is decided to do so.

I've been using different kinds of C++ (98/2003/201x) for more than 10
years. I believe the fundamental thing why C++ is better than C is C++
destructor and all the automatic actions that can be taken in it. It
is very convenient for a programmer. Sure, C++ has much more than just
that.

While porting to C++1x it is good chance to make Geeqie more
cross-platform. But it seems Gtk is becoming (has become) an auxiliary
tool for the "GnomeOS". And some of the well-known projects was/is
migrating from Gtk. Maybe we should consider Qt instead? Anyhow, I
guess it's more correct to talk about re-implementation than just
port.

On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 10:42 PM, Omari Stephens  wrote:
> It is at least hypothetically possible to port Geeqie to C++11 / GtkMM.
> ...
>
> Thoughts?
> --xsdg
>
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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-24 Thread Klaus Ethgen
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi Omari,

Am Fr den 23. Dez 2016 um 21:42 schrieb Omari Stephens:
> It is at least hypothetically possible to port Geeqie to C++11 / GtkMM.
> 
> Ignoring the inevitable ridiculous mountain of work that it would take, 
> does the end state seem like a good idea?

Well, except from the Idea that I personally love C and hate C++... ;-)

Regards
   Klaus
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pub  4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16Klaus Ethgen 
Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753  62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C
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Re: [Geeqie-devel] Geeqie++ fever dreams

2016-12-23 Thread Ian Zimmerman
On 2016-12-23 20:42, Omari Stephens wrote:

> It is at least hypothetically possible to port Geeqie to C++11 / GtkMM.

[...snip...]

> Thoughts?

libstdc++ ABI compatibility problems?

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