Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:25:44AM +0200, Jerzy Karczmarczuk wrote: > Le 20/08/2013 00:19, [email protected] a écrit : > >If I understand correctly, by "escaping continuations" you mean that > >you can easily transfer control between the point where the exception > >is raised and the exception handler. > > > >If this is what you mean, you can achieve the same effect with monadic > >code by chaining monads together > > José, this is mainly the question of efficiency. You don't need to > establish contact between the distant stack frames, and you may > propagate failures if this happens seldom. But if the escaping > continuation is a frequent case, it might be more economic to > "jump". This is as simple as that. That's all very well, in which case I wish implementors of such code would wrap their possibly-exception-throwing values in a newtype ThisMightThrowAnException a = ThisMightThrowAnException a monad. Then at least we'd all know. Tom ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
Le 20/08/2013 00:19, [email protected] a écrit : If I understand correctly, by "escaping continuations" you mean that you can easily transfer control between the point where the exception is raised and the exception handler. If this is what you mean, you can achieve the same effect with monadic code by chaining monads together Yes. José, this is mainly the question of efficiency. You don't need to establish contact between the distant stack frames, and you may propagate failures if this happens seldom. But if the escaping continuation is a frequent case, it might be more economic to "jump". This is as simple as that. Jerzy Karczmarczuk ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
> Some exceptions, e.g. in the traversal of deep structures may be and > ARE used as escaping continuations. If I understand correctly, by "escaping continuations" you mean that you can easily transfer control between the point where the exception is raised and the exception handler. If this is what you mean, you can achieve the same effect with monadic code by chaining monads together, for example, you can have your structure traversal code as several 'Maybe' functions. And if I understand correctly the underlying technical details of Haskell, because of continuation-passing style, the "control transfer" should be simpler because it comes down to invoking the proper continuation, so all of that code that compilers have to generate to look into the stack and find the proper exception handler, and unwind the stack and transfer control, is avoided. Jose ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
[email protected] : I would like to see more code move away from exceptions and into types like "Maybe" or "Either" or other types defined for the particular situation (as some people were suggesting in the beginning of the thread). And the reason for this it is because when you program against types you have to make a decision whether to handle the error or let it bleed through: you can't ignore the choice because you can't ignore the type. On the other hand, with exceptions, you can easily forget to handle the exception if you're not looking at the documentation at the time when you write the code. Tom Ellis: This is/exactly/ the reason to avoid exceptions where possible. I disagree. Types which neutralize some particular conditions (whether you call them exceptional or not is conventional) and propagate "Nothing" etc. is not a panacea. Some exceptions, e.g. in the traversal of deep structures may be and ARE used as escaping continuations. Calling all that "not the right thing to do", or issuing other normative statements is, how would I express it... , is not the right thing to do. Now you can add here some dozen smileys... More seriously, some people like exquisite continuations and will use them. Instead of fighting against exceptions it might be more fruitful to make them more robust, powerful, parametrable and sexy. Jerzy Karczmarczuk ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Tom Ellis < [email protected]> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 05:15:39PM -0400, [email protected] wrote: > > But I would like to see more code move away from exceptions and into > > types like "Maybe" or "Either" or other types defined for the > > particular situation (as some people were suggesting in the beginning > > of the thread). And the reason for this it is because when you program > > against types you have to make a decision whether to handle the error > > or let it bleed through: you can't ignore the choice because you can't > > ignore the type. On the other hand, with exceptions, you can easily > > forget to handle the exception if you're not looking at the > > documentation at the time when you write the code. > > This is /exactly/ the reason to avoid exceptions where possible. > > Tom > > And tangentially related, it's why Go uses error return values (with functions being able to "return multiple values"), e.g. http://blog.golang.org/error-handling-and-go ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 05:15:39PM -0400, [email protected] wrote: > But I would like to see more code move away from exceptions and into > types like "Maybe" or "Either" or other types defined for the > particular situation (as some people were suggesting in the beginning > of the thread). And the reason for this it is because when you program > against types you have to make a decision whether to handle the error > or let it bleed through: you can't ignore the choice because you can't > ignore the type. On the other hand, with exceptions, you can easily > forget to handle the exception if you're not looking at the > documentation at the time when you write the code. This is /exactly/ the reason to avoid exceptions where possible. Tom ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
I agree that whether to use exceptions or not is a very debatable subject and it is a grey area. Still, in your Python example, I would like to point out that just because something is common, it does not mean it is the right thing to do. For example, something that some Java programmers were doing a lot was to loop through an array and, instead of using a counter, they were catching the array out of bounds exception. This is clearly not the right thing to do! But I would like to see more code move away from exceptions and into types like "Maybe" or "Either" or other types defined for the particular situation (as some people were suggesting in the beginning of the thread). And the reason for this it is because when you program against types you have to make a decision whether to handle the error or let it bleed through: you can't ignore the choice because you can't ignore the type. On the other hand, with exceptions, you can easily forget to handle the exception if you're not looking at the documentation at the time when you write the code. Jose On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 01:12:13PM -0700, Donn Cave wrote: > [email protected], > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > In-Reply-To: > > References: > > > quoth Brandon Allbery, > > > Even in IO, exceptions should be reserved for truly exceptional conditions > > (of the "program cannot safely continue" variety), not merely for error > > checking when this can be described as a normal flow of evaluation. > > Exceptions are not simply alternative flow of control, even in procedural > > languages; they are *disruptions* of flow of control. > > I think that would be debatable, especially as applied to procedural languages > in general. It's very common to use exceptions in routine flow of control in > Python programs, if I remember right. Meanwhile, the Haskell library in my > opinion somewhat weakens your case by making ordinary conditions into > exceptions, > for example end-of-file. > > In the end it's a large grey area. Ideally, what the program has to do, or > whether it can even continue at all, is determined by the program using > information reported by the function that encounters the error. If there's > a good reason why exceptions should be used only when the program won't be > able to continue, it must be that the language's exception handling facililty > isn't very robust. > > Donn > > ___ > Haskell-Cafe mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
[email protected], MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 In-Reply-To: References: quoth Brandon Allbery, > Even in IO, exceptions should be reserved for truly exceptional conditions > (of the "program cannot safely continue" variety), not merely for error > checking when this can be described as a normal flow of evaluation. > Exceptions are not simply alternative flow of control, even in procedural > languages; they are *disruptions* of flow of control. I think that would be debatable, especially as applied to procedural languages in general. It's very common to use exceptions in routine flow of control in Python programs, if I remember right. Meanwhile, the Haskell library in my opinion somewhat weakens your case by making ordinary conditions into exceptions, for example end-of-file. In the end it's a large grey area. Ideally, what the program has to do, or whether it can even continue at all, is determined by the program using information reported by the function that encounters the error. If there's a good reason why exceptions should be used only when the program won't be able to continue, it must be that the language's exception handling facililty isn't very robust. Donn ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
Except that people generally don't seem to agree what constitutes 'exceptional', even when disregarding the python world... On Aug 19, 2013 9:24 PM, "Brandon Allbery" wrote: > On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 2:59 PM, wrote: > >> I'd say that if you were in the context of the IO monad, maybe you'd >> prefer to use exceptions instead of 'Either' or 'Maybe'. >> > > Even in IO, exceptions should be reserved for truly exceptional conditions > (of the "program cannot safely continue" variety), not merely for error > checking when this can be described as a normal flow of evaluation. > Exceptions are not simply alternative flow of control, even in procedural > languages; they are *disruptions* of flow of control. > > -- > brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine > associates > [email protected] > [email protected] > unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonad > http://sinenomine.net > > ___ > Haskell-Cafe mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe > > ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 2:59 PM, wrote: > I'd say that if you were in the context of the IO monad, maybe you'd > prefer to use exceptions instead of 'Either' or 'Maybe'. > Even in IO, exceptions should be reserved for truly exceptional conditions (of the "program cannot safely continue" variety), not merely for error checking when this can be described as a normal flow of evaluation. Exceptions are not simply alternative flow of control, even in procedural languages; they are *disruptions* of flow of control. -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates [email protected] [email protected] unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonadhttp://sinenomine.net ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
I'd say that if you were in the context of the IO monad, maybe you'd prefer to use exceptions instead of 'Either' or 'Maybe'. Jose On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 07:41:48PM +0100, Tom Ellis wrote: > On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 02:20:23PM -0400, [email protected] wrote: > > Yeah, non-monadic is not the best term... The problem is that it's > > always so hard to communicate when you want to say a total function > > that is not in the context of the IO monad. There should be a simple, > > short name for these functions, so we can easily talk about them. > > Why, what would be different in your question for a non-total function or > one in the context of the IO monad? > > Tom > > ___ > Haskell-Cafe mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 02:20:23PM -0400, [email protected] wrote: > Yeah, non-monadic is not the best term... The problem is that it's > always so hard to communicate when you want to say a total function > that is not in the context of the IO monad. There should be a simple, > short name for these functions, so we can easily talk about them. Why, what would be different in your question for a non-total function or one in the context of the IO monad? Tom ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Brandon Allbery wrote: > Alternatively, have you considered using your own ADT? `data Validity = > Success | Failure String` would give you more readable / comprehensible > code without needing to worry about assumptions or common usage. Or possibly Valid and Invalid as the constructors This also means you can easily extend it later to include multiple errors, or position information, or other annotations. You could also use it with Monoid and/or the Writer monad to track success/failure in the most appropriate way for your project, instead of being constrained to the behavior of an existing instance. -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates [email protected] [email protected] unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonadhttp://sinenomine.net ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
Yeah, non-monadic is not the best term... The problem is that it's always so hard to communicate when you want to say a total function that is not in the context of the IO monad. There should be a simple, short name for these functions, so we can easily talk about them. What ends up happening a lot of the times is that people on the mailing list call these "pure" functions, and immediately they get an email saying that Haskell is pure, so everything is a pure function. In the end, it doesn't really help... Jose On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:09:13PM +0400, Daniel F wrote: > On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 9:48 PM, wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > Hello! > > > > What is the proper way to implement a non-monadic function that checks > > whether a given value is correct and gives a proper error message > > otherwise ? What is the recommended option ? > > > > I am not sure, what do you mean by non-monadic. Both (Either String) and > Maybe are monads. > > You can pick up whatever option you like, depending on which option, in > your opinion, suits you better for your specific case. > There is also a helpful errors [1] package that provide convenient means of > converting between the results of the two approaches. > > Control.Error.Util.hush :: Either a b -> Maybe b > Control.Error.Util.note :: a -> Maybe b -> Either a b > > > > * Either String a > > > > check val > > | valid val = Right val > > | otherwise = Left errorMsg > > > > > > * Maybe String > > > > check val > > | valid val = Nothing > > | otherwise = Just errorMsg > > > > > > Cheers, > > Jose > > > > ___ > > Haskell-Cafe mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe > > > > [1] http://hackage.haskell.org/package/errors > > -- > Sincerely yours, > -- Daniil ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 9:48 PM, wrote: > Hi, > > Hello! > What is the proper way to implement a non-monadic function that checks > whether a given value is correct and gives a proper error message > otherwise ? What is the recommended option ? > I am not sure, what do you mean by non-monadic. Both (Either String) and Maybe are monads. You can pick up whatever option you like, depending on which option, in your opinion, suits you better for your specific case. There is also a helpful errors [1] package that provide convenient means of converting between the results of the two approaches. Control.Error.Util.hush :: Either a b -> Maybe b Control.Error.Util.note :: a -> Maybe b -> Either a b > * Either String a > > check val > | valid val = Right val > | otherwise = Left errorMsg > > > * Maybe String > > check val > | valid val = Nothing > | otherwise = Just errorMsg > > > Cheers, > Jose > > ___ > Haskell-Cafe mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe > [1] http://hackage.haskell.org/package/errors -- Sincerely yours, -- Daniil ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Errors in non-monadic code
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 1:48 PM, wrote: > What is the proper way to implement a non-monadic function that checks > whether a given value is correct and gives a proper error message > otherwise ? What is the recommended option ? > > * Either String a > Preferred, usually, since Nothing is regarded as an error condition of sorts: the Monad instance for Maybe associates Nothing with `fail`, which is invoked on failed pattern matches; likewise it's mzero for MonadPlus and mempty for Monoid, both of which use it (differently) to reflect certain "failure" scenarios). If nothing else, it would be highly confusing to see Nothing associated with success given its widespread association with failure. Alternatively, have you considered using your own ADT? `data Validity = Success | Failure String` would give you more readable / comprehensible code without needing to worry about assumptions or common usage. -- brandon s allbery kf8nh sine nomine associates [email protected] [email protected] unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonadhttp://sinenomine.net ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list [email protected] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
