RE: Linux console?
Adam, ESC does nothing. I do not recall seeing -serial_esc anywhere. Where exactly does that go? As part of Qemu command line? Or in the config file? I will try to find where it goes and add it... Richard -Original Message- From: Adam Lackorzynski Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 1:31 PM To: Richard Clark ; [email protected] Cc: Bud Wykoff Subject: Re: Linux console? Hi Richard, by any chance, missing -serial_esc on the fiasco command line? Does ESC go into the debugger? Adam On Wed Apr 16, 2025 at 17:07:20 +, Richard Clark wrote: > Adam, > > It seems like something is not right with the connection between "cons" and > Qemu. > I see cons get run, but I cannot get into it. Ctrl-E does nothing. > Could this be another part of the issue? > > > Richard > > > -Original Message- > From: Adam Lackorzynski > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 4:05 PM > To: Richard Clark ; > [email protected] > Cc: Bud Wykoff > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > Hi Richard, > > your dts has the 'l4vmm,vcon_cap = "uart";' enabled (not commented out), thus > the 8250 UART emulation in uvmm looks for a "uart" capability which is not > there and thus disables the virtual UART. Removing that line or commenting it > out will make this work I believe as the standard capability will be used > then. > > > Adam > > On Mon Apr 14, 2025 at 11:57:32 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > Adam, > > > > Yes the vm-basic.cfg is where I started. > > > > I am attaching a tgz file with two directories showing the two > > different outputs that I get when trying to run hvc0 and ttyS0. Included > > are the config files, the ramdisk, and the dts as well. > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Adam Lackorzynski > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 12:49 AM > > To: Richard Clark ; > > [email protected] > > Cc: Bud Wykoff > > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > On Fri Apr 11, 2025 at 15:27:18 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > > L4Re, > > > > > > I’ve been working with the examples and tweaking them for AMD64 > > > (QEMU), and I’ve managed to get linux up and booting, reading the > > > ramdisk, and even spawning a login process which kicks off /bin/sh > > > and displays a # prompt. And that’s great, but that’s all it does. > > > I can’t get any input to it. That’s using the device hvc0. Of > > > course uvmm complains that there is no virtual console and warns > > > that it might not work, so the software is at least not surprised! > > > 😊 But when I try to use the device ttyS0, linux stops printing > > > even before the login process tries to run. I don’t get any > > > errors, but also no output. And I can’t seem to run the IO server because > > > then linux won’t load at all (something about out-of-memory). > > > > > > I’m sure I’m missing some little piece of magic somewhere, but I > > > can’t find any working examples. None of them have active logins > > > (I had to add my own iniittab to the ramdisk). A little help > > > connecting the cons service to my linux so I can get a real bash > > > shell? Or running IO and connecting through that? > > > > Did you try to run for example the "VM-basic" entry that is there? That is > > supposed to be a minimal working example. > > Please also provide the output from the system you're getting, that is > > helping understanding what's going on. > > > > > > Thanks, Adam ___ l4-hackers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
RE: Linux console?
Adam, It seems like something is not right with the connection between "cons" and Qemu. I see cons get run, but I cannot get into it. Ctrl-E does nothing. Could this be another part of the issue? Richard -Original Message- From: Adam Lackorzynski Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 4:05 PM To: Richard Clark ; [email protected] Cc: Bud Wykoff Subject: Re: Linux console? Hi Richard, your dts has the 'l4vmm,vcon_cap = "uart";' enabled (not commented out), thus the 8250 UART emulation in uvmm looks for a "uart" capability which is not there and thus disables the virtual UART. Removing that line or commenting it out will make this work I believe as the standard capability will be used then. Adam On Mon Apr 14, 2025 at 11:57:32 +, Richard Clark wrote: > Adam, > > Yes the vm-basic.cfg is where I started. > > I am attaching a tgz file with two directories showing the two > different outputs that I get when trying to run hvc0 and ttyS0. Included are > the config files, the ramdisk, and the dts as well. > > > Richard > > > -Original Message- > From: Adam Lackorzynski > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 12:49 AM > To: Richard Clark ; > [email protected] > Cc: Bud Wykoff > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > Hi Richard, > > On Fri Apr 11, 2025 at 15:27:18 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > L4Re, > > > > I’ve been working with the examples and tweaking them for AMD64 > > (QEMU), and I’ve managed to get linux up and booting, reading the > > ramdisk, and even spawning a login process which kicks off /bin/sh > > and displays a # prompt. And that’s great, but that’s all it does. I > > can’t get any input to it. That’s using the device hvc0. Of course > > uvmm complains that there is no virtual console and warns that it > > might not work, so the software is at least not surprised! 😊 But > > when I try to use the device ttyS0, linux stops printing even before > > the login process tries to run. I don’t get any errors, but also no > > output. And I can’t seem to run the IO server because then linux won’t load > > at all (something about out-of-memory). > > > > I’m sure I’m missing some little piece of magic somewhere, but I > > can’t find any working examples. None of them have active logins (I > > had to add my own iniittab to the ramdisk). A little help connecting > > the cons service to my linux so I can get a real bash shell? Or > > running IO and connecting through that? > > Did you try to run for example the "VM-basic" entry that is there? That is > supposed to be a minimal working example. > Please also provide the output from the system you're getting, that is > helping understanding what's going on. > > > Thanks, Adam ___ l4-hackers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
RE: Linux console?
Adam, It worked! I have a live linux console! Woohoo! Thank you so much! Richard -Original Message- From: Adam Lackorzynski Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 3:11 PM To: Richard Clark ; [email protected] Cc: Bud Wykoff Subject: Re: Linux console? Hi Richard, please check your modules.list. The default one (conf/modules.list) has "default-kernel fiasco -serial_esc". Either add this line or add an explicit "kernel fiasco -serial_esc" to your entry. Adam On Wed Apr 16, 2025 at 18:48:18 +, Richard Clark wrote: > Adam, > > ESC does nothing. I do not recall seeing -serial_esc anywhere. > Where exactly does that go? As part of Qemu command line? > Or in the config file? I will try to find where it goes and add it... > > > Richard > > > -Original Message- > From: Adam Lackorzynski > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 1:31 PM > To: Richard Clark ; > [email protected] > Cc: Bud Wykoff > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > Hi Richard, > > by any chance, missing -serial_esc on the fiasco command line? > Does ESC go into the debugger? > > > Adam > > On Wed Apr 16, 2025 at 17:07:20 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > Adam, > > > > It seems like something is not right with the connection between "cons" and > > Qemu. > > I see cons get run, but I cannot get into it. Ctrl-E does nothing. > > Could this be another part of the issue? > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > -Original Message----- > > From: Adam Lackorzynski > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 4:05 PM > > To: Richard Clark ; > > [email protected] > > Cc: Bud Wykoff > > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > your dts has the 'l4vmm,vcon_cap = "uart";' enabled (not commented out), > > thus the 8250 UART emulation in uvmm looks for a "uart" capability which is > > not there and thus disables the virtual UART. Removing that line or > > commenting it out will make this work I believe as the standard capability > > will be used then. > > > > > > Adam > > > > On Mon Apr 14, 2025 at 11:57:32 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > > Adam, > > > > > > Yes the vm-basic.cfg is where I started. > > > > > > I am attaching a tgz file with two directories showing the two > > > different outputs that I get when trying to run hvc0 and ttyS0. Included > > > are the config files, the ramdisk, and the dts as well. > > > > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Adam Lackorzynski > > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 12:49 AM > > > To: Richard Clark ; > > > [email protected] > > > Cc: Bud Wykoff > > > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > > > On Fri Apr 11, 2025 at 15:27:18 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > > > L4Re, > > > > > > > > I’ve been working with the examples and tweaking them for AMD64 > > > > (QEMU), and I’ve managed to get linux up and booting, reading > > > > the ramdisk, and even spawning a login process which kicks off > > > > /bin/sh and displays a # prompt. And that’s great, but that’s all it > > > > does. > > > > I can’t get any input to it. That’s using the device hvc0. Of > > > > course uvmm complains that there is no virtual console and warns > > > > that it might not work, so the software is at least not surprised! > > > > 😊 But when I try to use the device ttyS0, linux stops printing > > > > even before the login process tries to run. I don’t get any > > > > errors, but also no output. And I can’t seem to run the IO server > > > > because then linux won’t load at all (something about out-of-memory). > > > > > > > > I’m sure I’m missing some little piece of magic somewhere, but I > > > > can’t find any working examples. None of them have active logins > > > > (I had to add my own iniittab to the ramdisk). A little help > > > > connecting the cons service to my linux so I can get a real bash > > > > shell? Or running IO and connecting through that? > > > > > > Did you try to run for example the "VM-basic" entry that is there? That > > > is supposed to be a minimal working example. > > > Please also provide the output from the system you're getting, that is > > > helping understanding what's going on. > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Adam Adam -- Adam [email protected] Lackorzynski http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/~adam/ ___ l4-hackers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
Re: Linux console?
Hi Richard, please check your modules.list. The default one (conf/modules.list) has "default-kernel fiasco -serial_esc". Either add this line or add an explicit "kernel fiasco -serial_esc" to your entry. Adam On Wed Apr 16, 2025 at 18:48:18 +, Richard Clark wrote: > Adam, > > ESC does nothing. I do not recall seeing -serial_esc anywhere. > Where exactly does that go? As part of Qemu command line? > Or in the config file? I will try to find where it goes and add it... > > > Richard > > > -Original Message- > From: Adam Lackorzynski > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 1:31 PM > To: Richard Clark ; > [email protected] > Cc: Bud Wykoff > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > Hi Richard, > > by any chance, missing -serial_esc on the fiasco command line? > Does ESC go into the debugger? > > > Adam > > On Wed Apr 16, 2025 at 17:07:20 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > Adam, > > > > It seems like something is not right with the connection between "cons" and > > Qemu. > > I see cons get run, but I cannot get into it. Ctrl-E does nothing. > > Could this be another part of the issue? > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Adam Lackorzynski > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 4:05 PM > > To: Richard Clark ; > > [email protected] > > Cc: Bud Wykoff > > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > your dts has the 'l4vmm,vcon_cap = "uart";' enabled (not commented out), > > thus the 8250 UART emulation in uvmm looks for a "uart" capability which is > > not there and thus disables the virtual UART. Removing that line or > > commenting it out will make this work I believe as the standard capability > > will be used then. > > > > > > Adam > > > > On Mon Apr 14, 2025 at 11:57:32 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > > Adam, > > > > > > Yes the vm-basic.cfg is where I started. > > > > > > I am attaching a tgz file with two directories showing the two > > > different outputs that I get when trying to run hvc0 and ttyS0. Included > > > are the config files, the ramdisk, and the dts as well. > > > > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Adam Lackorzynski > > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 12:49 AM > > > To: Richard Clark ; > > > [email protected] > > > Cc: Bud Wykoff > > > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > > > On Fri Apr 11, 2025 at 15:27:18 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > > > L4Re, > > > > > > > > I’ve been working with the examples and tweaking them for AMD64 > > > > (QEMU), and I’ve managed to get linux up and booting, reading the > > > > ramdisk, and even spawning a login process which kicks off /bin/sh > > > > and displays a # prompt. And that’s great, but that’s all it does. > > > > I can’t get any input to it. That’s using the device hvc0. Of > > > > course uvmm complains that there is no virtual console and warns > > > > that it might not work, so the software is at least not surprised! > > > > 😊 But when I try to use the device ttyS0, linux stops printing > > > > even before the login process tries to run. I don’t get any > > > > errors, but also no output. And I can’t seem to run the IO server > > > > because then linux won’t load at all (something about out-of-memory). > > > > > > > > I’m sure I’m missing some little piece of magic somewhere, but I > > > > can’t find any working examples. None of them have active logins > > > > (I had to add my own iniittab to the ramdisk). A little help > > > > connecting the cons service to my linux so I can get a real bash > > > > shell? Or running IO and connecting through that? > > > > > > Did you try to run for example the "VM-basic" entry that is there? That > > > is supposed to be a minimal working example. > > > Please also provide the output from the system you're getting, that is > > > helping understanding what's going on. > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Adam Adam -- Adam [email protected] Lackorzynski http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/~adam/ ___ l4-hackers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
Re: Linux console?
Hi Richard, by any chance, missing -serial_esc on the fiasco command line? Does ESC go into the debugger? Adam On Wed Apr 16, 2025 at 17:07:20 +, Richard Clark wrote: > Adam, > > It seems like something is not right with the connection between "cons" and > Qemu. > I see cons get run, but I cannot get into it. Ctrl-E does nothing. > Could this be another part of the issue? > > > Richard > > > -Original Message- > From: Adam Lackorzynski > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 4:05 PM > To: Richard Clark ; > [email protected] > Cc: Bud Wykoff > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > Hi Richard, > > your dts has the 'l4vmm,vcon_cap = "uart";' enabled (not commented out), thus > the 8250 UART emulation in uvmm looks for a "uart" capability which is not > there and thus disables the virtual UART. Removing that line or commenting it > out will make this work I believe as the standard capability will be used > then. > > > Adam > > On Mon Apr 14, 2025 at 11:57:32 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > Adam, > > > > Yes the vm-basic.cfg is where I started. > > > > I am attaching a tgz file with two directories showing the two > > different outputs that I get when trying to run hvc0 and ttyS0. Included > > are the config files, the ramdisk, and the dts as well. > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Adam Lackorzynski > > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 12:49 AM > > To: Richard Clark ; > > [email protected] > > Cc: Bud Wykoff > > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > On Fri Apr 11, 2025 at 15:27:18 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > > L4Re, > > > > > > I’ve been working with the examples and tweaking them for AMD64 > > > (QEMU), and I’ve managed to get linux up and booting, reading the > > > ramdisk, and even spawning a login process which kicks off /bin/sh > > > and displays a # prompt. And that’s great, but that’s all it does. I > > > can’t get any input to it. That’s using the device hvc0. Of course > > > uvmm complains that there is no virtual console and warns that it > > > might not work, so the software is at least not surprised! 😊 But > > > when I try to use the device ttyS0, linux stops printing even before > > > the login process tries to run. I don’t get any errors, but also no > > > output. And I can’t seem to run the IO server because then linux won’t > > > load at all (something about out-of-memory). > > > > > > I’m sure I’m missing some little piece of magic somewhere, but I > > > can’t find any working examples. None of them have active logins (I > > > had to add my own iniittab to the ramdisk). A little help connecting > > > the cons service to my linux so I can get a real bash shell? Or > > > running IO and connecting through that? > > > > Did you try to run for example the "VM-basic" entry that is there? That is > > supposed to be a minimal working example. > > Please also provide the output from the system you're getting, that is > > helping understanding what's going on. > > > > > > Thanks, Adam ___ l4-hackers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
RE: Linux console?
Adam, That change certainly makes it a lot better! Now it (ttyS0 configuration) gets to the same point as the hvc0 configuration. I get the login: message, and a # prompt, but it will not take input. Maybe I'm missing a qemu flag? Or a connection from cons to the vm in the cfg file? So close. Both hvc0 and ttyS0 now display a #, but there is no input. Thanks! Richard -Original Message- From: Adam Lackorzynski Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 4:05 PM To: Richard Clark ; [email protected] Cc: Bud Wykoff Subject: Re: Linux console? Hi Richard, your dts has the 'l4vmm,vcon_cap = "uart";' enabled (not commented out), thus the 8250 UART emulation in uvmm looks for a "uart" capability which is not there and thus disables the virtual UART. Removing that line or commenting it out will make this work I believe as the standard capability will be used then. Adam On Mon Apr 14, 2025 at 11:57:32 +, Richard Clark wrote: > Adam, > > Yes the vm-basic.cfg is where I started. > > I am attaching a tgz file with two directories showing the two > different outputs that I get when trying to run hvc0 and ttyS0. Included are > the config files, the ramdisk, and the dts as well. > > > Richard > > > -Original Message- > From: Adam Lackorzynski > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 12:49 AM > To: Richard Clark ; > [email protected] > Cc: Bud Wykoff > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > Hi Richard, > > On Fri Apr 11, 2025 at 15:27:18 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > L4Re, > > > > I’ve been working with the examples and tweaking them for AMD64 > > (QEMU), and I’ve managed to get linux up and booting, reading the > > ramdisk, and even spawning a login process which kicks off /bin/sh > > and displays a # prompt. And that’s great, but that’s all it does. I > > can’t get any input to it. That’s using the device hvc0. Of course > > uvmm complains that there is no virtual console and warns that it > > might not work, so the software is at least not surprised! 😊 But > > when I try to use the device ttyS0, linux stops printing even before > > the login process tries to run. I don’t get any errors, but also no > > output. And I can’t seem to run the IO server because then linux won’t load > > at all (something about out-of-memory). > > > > I’m sure I’m missing some little piece of magic somewhere, but I > > can’t find any working examples. None of them have active logins (I > > had to add my own iniittab to the ramdisk). A little help connecting > > the cons service to my linux so I can get a real bash shell? Or > > running IO and connecting through that? > > Did you try to run for example the "VM-basic" entry that is there? That is > supposed to be a minimal working example. > Please also provide the output from the system you're getting, that is > helping understanding what's going on. > > > Thanks, Adam ___ l4-hackers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
Re: Linux console?
Hi Richard, your dts has the 'l4vmm,vcon_cap = "uart";' enabled (not commented out), thus the 8250 UART emulation in uvmm looks for a "uart" capability which is not there and thus disables the virtual UART. Removing that line or commenting it out will make this work I believe as the standard capability will be used then. Adam On Mon Apr 14, 2025 at 11:57:32 +, Richard Clark wrote: > Adam, > > Yes the vm-basic.cfg is where I started. > > I am attaching a tgz file with two directories showing the two different > outputs that I get when > trying to run hvc0 and ttyS0. Included are the config files, the ramdisk, and > the dts as well. > > > Richard > > > -Original Message- > From: Adam Lackorzynski > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2025 12:49 AM > To: Richard Clark ; > [email protected] > Cc: Bud Wykoff > Subject: Re: Linux console? > > Hi Richard, > > On Fri Apr 11, 2025 at 15:27:18 +, Richard Clark wrote: > > L4Re, > > > > I’ve been working with the examples and tweaking them for AMD64 > > (QEMU), and I’ve managed to get linux up and booting, reading the > > ramdisk, and even spawning a login process which kicks off /bin/sh and > > displays a # prompt. And that’s great, but that’s all it does. I can’t > > get any input to it. That’s using the device hvc0. Of course uvmm > > complains that there is no virtual console and warns that it might not > > work, so the software is at least not surprised! 😊 But when I try to > > use the device ttyS0, linux stops printing even before the login > > process tries to run. I don’t get any errors, but also no output. And > > I can’t seem to run the IO server because then linux won’t load at all > > (something about out-of-memory). > > > > I’m sure I’m missing some little piece of magic somewhere, but I can’t > > find any working examples. None of them have active logins (I had to > > add my own iniittab to the ramdisk). A little help connecting the cons > > service to my linux so I can get a real bash shell? Or running IO and > > connecting through that? > > Did you try to run for example the "VM-basic" entry that is there? That is > supposed to be a minimal working example. > Please also provide the output from the system you're getting, that is > helping understanding what's going on. > > > Thanks, Adam ___ l4-hackers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
Re: Linux console?
Hi Richard, On Fri Apr 11, 2025 at 15:27:18 +, Richard Clark wrote: > L4Re, > > I’ve been working with the examples and tweaking them for AMD64 (QEMU), > and I’ve managed to get linux up and booting, reading the ramdisk, > and even spawning a login process which kicks off /bin/sh and displays > a # prompt. And that’s great, but that’s all it does. I can’t get any input > to it. That’s using the device hvc0. Of course uvmm complains that there > is no virtual console and warns that it might not work, so the software > is at least not surprised! 😊 But when I try to use the device ttyS0, > linux stops printing even before the login process tries to run. I don’t get > any errors, but also no output. And I can’t seem to run the IO server > because then linux won’t load at all (something about out-of-memory). > > I’m sure I’m missing some little piece of magic somewhere, but I can’t > find any working examples. None of them have active logins (I had to add > my own iniittab to the ramdisk). A little help connecting the cons > service to my linux so I can get a real bash shell? Or running IO and > connecting through that? Did you try to run for example the "VM-basic" entry that is there? That is supposed to be a minimal working example. Please also provide the output from the system you're getting, that is helping understanding what's going on. Thanks, Adam ___ l4-hackers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
Linux console?
L4Re, I’ve been working with the examples and tweaking them for AMD64 (QEMU), and I’ve managed to get linux up and booting, reading the ramdisk, and even spawning a login process which kicks off /bin/sh and displays a # prompt. And that’s great, but that’s all it does. I can’t get any input to it. That’s using the device hvc0. Of course uvmm complains that there is no virtual console and warns that it might not work, so the software is at least not surprised! 😊 But when I try to use the device ttyS0, linux stops printing even before the login process tries to run. I don’t get any errors, but also no output. And I can’t seem to run the IO server because then linux won’t load at all (something about out-of-memory). I’m sure I’m missing some little piece of magic somewhere, but I can’t find any working examples. None of them have active logins (I had to add my own iniittab to the ramdisk). A little help connecting the cons service to my linux so I can get a real bash shell? Or running IO and connecting through that? Thank you in advance! Richard ___ l4-hackers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
Re: Hide linux console into DOpE
On Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 18:30:27 +0100, Marc CHALAND wrote: > I added into l4linux a feature that seems to me interesting. With the > following patch, it is possible to hide linux console window with the > following linux command: > echo N > /sys/module/l4fb/parameters/console_visible > The console can be shown with the following command : > echo Y > /sys/module/l4fb/parameters/console_visible Ok, I'm getting the idea. But I'd rather see an event based sysfs approach here instead of polling the variable constantly. Also, the loop is not used if no refreshing is configured. Adam -- Adam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lackorzynski http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/~adam/ ___ l4-hackers mailing list [email protected] http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/mailman/listinfo/l4-hackers
Hide linux console into DOpE
Hi, I added into l4linux a feature that seems to me interesting. With the following patch, it is possible to hide linux console window with the following linux command: echo N > /sys/module/l4fb/parameters/console_visible The console can be shown with the following command : echo Y > /sys/module/l4fb/parameters/console_visible Regards Marc l4linux-2.6.patch Description: Binary data ___ l4-hackers mailing list [email protected] http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/mailman/listinfo/l4-hackers
